In the East Bay, the Gen 4 Priuses are common. While not yet ubiquitous as are the Gen 2/3, they're almost everywhere. The Volt 2 is doing quite well also, if not in the same league.cwerdna said:I'm starting to see more and more of the (horrible lookingRegGuheert said:) Gen 4 Priuses now. There are now a couple at my work besides the Zipcar Gen 4 Prius we have. I sometimes see them on the road, as well.
http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-toyota-mirai-hydrogen-vs-electricity-road-trip-to-lake-tahoe.html
Not that there was ever any doubt as to which car would win, as long as they took a route with H2 stations along the way. The return trip will be more equal, as the Mirai driver plans to detour to Truckee before heading back to SoCal [the Model X has destination charging so will be full when they start] as they're going to do some sightseeing in the Tahoe area. Otherwise, he could easily return to the W. Sacramento station on the fuel he has. Here's the Model X driver's report:
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-math-befuddled-software-and-chasing-a-mirai-to-lake-tahoe.html
cwerdna said:
I'm pretty sure that http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/2009-honda-fcx-clarity-1 is what I drove. The list of vehicles available for test drives and/or viewing at http://web.archive.org/web/20121019224610/http://altcarexpo.com/exhibitor_vehicles.html was a little inaccurate, but there was a VERY good selection that year.DarthPuppy said:
GRA said:
As there's two H2 stations in/next to Santa Monica, any extra fueling time would be minimal, but feel free to include that time as a special trip. For my recent trips to the east side, I'd have had to go 1.9 miles each way out of my way for H2 refueling. OTOH, I'd have had to go even further out of my way to recharge, and it would have taken longer too, since I can't charge at home. It's all a question of each person's situation.GetOffYourGas said:
Yup, see above. Since all I need a car for is long trips (often in winter), an FCEV is a better match for my needs at the moment than a BEV, as it may be for many people who frequently take longer road trips. Or it would be, once they build a station or two east of me, so that I can get to Yosemite and the east side of the Sierra and back.GetOffYourGas said:
Which is why I always say no one should be buying an FCEV at this time. Lease and let Toyota et al subsidize H2, until such time as H2 prices have come down to the same or less than gas. If that doesn't happen and FCEVs don't catch on, you're not stuck with an expensive driveway ornament.GetOffYourGas said:
GRA said:
http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-toyota-mirai-close-finish-in-hydrogen-vs-battery-contest.html
The Model X report is here: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-supercharger-shortcut-on-the-return-leg-from-lake-tahoe.html
I've asked for the Mirai's MPkg, avg. speed and temp for each leg.
Yep. It's the classic drug-pusher sales model, but in this case both the pusher AND the government (taxpayer) are subsidizing the hidden costs.smkettner said:
Sure are, just as the same groups are subsidizing the cost of recharging stations and in many cases electricity. Neither subsidy is sustainable long-term.RegGuheert said:
lorenfb said:
So far, public for-profit charging remains govt. subsidized for construction, and in some cases also for the electricity (like the local college, which has a bunch of Chargepoint L2s at which I saw a pair of Model S as well as a 500e and PiP guzzling free electrons last Saturday). As it was the weekend, they weren't even paying for parking, and I'd be willing to bet that both Teslas, at least, belonged to local homeowners within walking distance who decided to charge on the College's dime instead of paying for their own electrons. Why on earth is this electricity being subsidized by a taxpayer-funded govt. agency, especially when the Chargepoints are fully capable of PoS payment? They used to have Clipper Creeks there, so there was at least an excuse for not imposing a fee with them.smkettner said:
Why on earth would you put an H2 station at a shopping mall or an employer (other than one who has a fleet), when you can put them at the already existing fueling stations for cars with virtually identical operating and fueling characteristics, a business model which has been proven to work and has been acceptable to the public for more than a century? Which is exactly where H2 stations are being put, at existing gas stations. Anyone for whom a BEV meets their needs and has convenient, low cost home/work charging should be using one for commuting, local errands and whatever other trips it's suitable for. For everyone else who wants a ZEV, the only option is an FCEV. How quickly infrastructure and costs reduce between the two techs, along with public acceptance or lack of it, will determine which achieves mainstream success, or maybe both will, or neither.smkettner said:
Exactly my point. And yet some shopping centers and employers do have L2 charging. Some even free.GRA said:
GRA said:
That assumes that electrolysis is the only possible way to make renewable H2, and as has been detailed by many posts in the H2 thread, lots of R&D is being dedicated to photo-chemical and thermo-chemical H2 production; it's also being made from sewage and other biomass. It also ignores the fact at the moment, excess electricity from variable renewables which would otherwise have to be curtailed can also be used for generating H2, and it seems to be less expensive to do so than trying to store a similar quantity of energy in batteries at the moment. If mass battery storage becomes cost-effective the balance may change, but for now batteries still seem to be used almost exclusively for short-term grid regulation rather than mass storage, an indication that the latter is still not affordable. We're starting to see a few battery projects trying to go beyond stabilization, and I'll be keeping an eye on them to see how they do.WetEV said:
Perhaps, but as I mentioned in my post just before yours, the salesman told me they'd run out of 2016s to sell and had no idea when they'd get the next batch (presumably 2017s, to which the new lease prices apply). He said he himself had 5 customers on a waiting list for them. Course, he's a car salesman, so take it FWIW, but chatting with him over 40 minutes I didn't get the impression I get from many of them that he was the typical "what's it gonna take to put you in a car?" slimeball, subject to the joke that also extends to lawyers and politicians about how to tell if they're lying (A: Their lips are moving). He did mention that either his dealership or Toyota (my hearing sucks, so I missed which it was) gave employees another perk, one extra week of free rentals on top of the week per year that Toyota gives to all Mirai customers, for all those trips outside the state, or in-state areas where the fueling infrastructure hasn't yet reached.mtndrew1 said:
