Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

[GRA]

Mirai and hydrogen not so much. No shopping mall or employer is going to spend $$ two million $$ to provide expensive $$ hydrogen $$.

Why on earth would you put an H2 station at a shopping mall or an employer (other than one who has a fleet), when you can put them at the already existing fueling stations for cars with virtually identical operating and fueling characteristics, a business model which has been proven to work and has been acceptable to the public for more than a century? .

Exactly my point. And yet some shopping centers and employers do have L2 charging. Some even free.
Why would they do this? Maybe it is a low cost incentive to shop a little longer or a minor cost to assist with zero emission commuting.
Some employers subsidize bus pass or provide showers to commute on bicycles for the same reasons.

Absolutely absurd to think the same for H2.

There's an incentive for some stores to provide free charging, as they consider it a marketing expense (paved vs. unpaved parking lots serve the same purpose). As to bus passes and similar, at least here in the Bay Area government uses both carrots and sticks to encourage such things. For instance, by getting a certain % of employees to opt for bus passes, the developer may be able to build or maintain a smaller parking lot, or get a tax break, or similar. It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and while I won't claim that there aren't any companies that weren't doing this sort of thing anyway out of a sense of civic obligation or due to employee requests, the fact that they are officially encouraged to do so and there are usually financial penalties if they don't is at least an equal motivation. See e.g.

PERKS FOR COMMUTERS: New law requires Bay Area companies to offer incentives to workers who use public transit, car pooling services

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/2573580-181/perks-for-commuters-new-law

. . . A new state law requires Bay Area companies with 50 or more employees to offer commuter benefits to workers, a perk that some companies have provided on their own for years.

The law, which may be the first of its kind in the nation, compels both private industry and public employers, with the threat of penalties, to help ease traffic and reduce greenhouse gases.

It utilizes tax breaks the Internal Revenue Service provides for employers that offer commuter benefits. . . .

To comply with the law, companies can choose one of four options:

• * Companies can allow employees to exclude up to $130 of their transit or van pooling expenses each month from taxable income. This option is the least financially onerous on employers and could even save businesses money in payroll tax, the MTC said.
  
  * Employers could provide a tax-free subsidy of up to $75 per month to cover transit costs. In this option, companies would likely give employees transit vouchers or something similar, such as a pre-paid Clipper travel card. This benefit could help companies recruit and retain employees, the MTC said.
  
  
  * A business or group of businesses could provide a free or low-cost bus or shuttle for employees. Some tech companies, such as Google, provide buses for employees who live in San Francisco and work in Silicon Valley.
  
  * A company could propose a package of different benefits that encourages alternative commuting. Some options include installing secure bike parking, showers and lockers and offering a subsidy for commuters who bike to work, implementing telecommuting, providing preferred parking for car poolers and promoting car pooling programs such as Carma.

 

[rcm4453]

Toyota's employee Mirai giveaway must be over as the company delivered fewer than 70 Mirais for September despite the new dramatically lower public lease price, the reduced drive-off fee, and the CVRP rebates resuming.

It seems that Mirai demand is tepid.

Perhaps, but as I mentioned in my post just before yours, the salesman told me they'd run out of 2016s to sell and had no idea when they'd get the next batch (presumably 2017s). He said he himself had 5 customers on a waiting list for them. Course, he's a car salesman, so take it FWIW, but chatting with him over 40 minutes I didn't get the impression I get from many of them that he was the typical "what's it gonna take to put you in a car?" slimeball, subject to the joke that also extends to lawyers and politicians about how to tell if they're lying (A: Their lips are moving). He did mention that either his dealership or Toyota (my hearing sucks, so I missed which it was) gave employees another perk, one extra week of free rentals on top of the week that Toyota gives to all Mirai customers, for all those trips outside the state, or in-state areas where the fueling infrastructure hasn't yet reached.

I'm kind of curious what's going to happen to these leased Mirais once they get turned in three years from now? There won't be free H2 for the second owner. Not that there's a lot of these cars out there anyway.

 

[GRA]

I'm kind of curious what's going to happen to these leased Mirais once they get turned in three years from now? There won't be free H2 for the second owner. Not that there's a lot of these cars out there anyway.

If the price hasn't come down enough and Toyota wants to re-lease or sell them, then presumably they'd have to continue to subsidize the fuel, although perhaps at a lower level (the price will have to have dropped some by then, given greater fuel volumes and more competing stations, plus whatever technical improvements have lowered costs). Otherwise they'll all come off lease and they'll be stuck with them.

 

[GRA]

Toyota's employee Mirai giveaway must be over as the company delivered fewer than 70 Mirais for September despite the new dramatically lower public lease price, the reduced drive-off fee, and the CVRP rebates resuming.

It seems that Mirai demand is tepid.

Perhaps, but as I mentioned in my post just before yours, the salesman told me they'd run out of 2016s to sell and had no idea when they'd get the next batch (presumably 2017s, to which the new lease prices apply). He said he himself had 5 customers on a waiting list for them. Course, he's a car salesman, so take it FWIW, but chatting with him over 40 minutes I didn't get the impression I get from many of them that he was the typical "what's it gonna take to put you in a car?" slimeball, subject to the joke that also extends to lawyers and politicians about how to tell if they're lying (A: Their lips are moving). He did mention that either his dealership or Toyota (my hearing sucks, so I missed which it was) gave employees another perk, one extra week of free rentals on top of the week per year that Toyota gives to all Mirai customers, for all those trips outside the state, or in-state areas where the fueling infrastructure hasn't yet reached.

H'mm, the post I was referencing in the above seems to have disappeared, so I'll repeat it as close as I remember.

I was out riding my bike Monday night to work off a mild headache, and my route took me past the Hayward H2 station. I saw a car parked at the dispenser that definitely wasn't a Tucson, so rode over and introduced myself. I don't know whether or not all the Gen 4 Priuses I see have desensitized me, or maybe it was because it was at night, but the Mirai wasn't as fugly as it appears in all the pictures I've seen. I still don't care for it, but I didn't feel the need to cover my eyes any time I glanced in its direction :lol: I'll have to wait to see one in daylight before deciding.

Anyway, talked to the owner, who is a salesman at San Francisco Toyota, and he said that including himself 12 of the dealership's employees had gotten Mirais under the special lease deal (now extended to the public for the 2017s). He also said that they'd run out of 2016s and didn't know when the 2017s would arrive. He'd had the car about two months, but had been out of town a lot and hadn't had much chance to drive it yet. He'd just gotten his white stickers, but prior to that in his normal commute between Oakland and S.F. he said he was getting about 230 miles of range, and confirmed that as Hayward is the only station in the East Bay right now (and a good 10-15 miles from where he lives) and South S.F. is the nearest other full retail station, he was keeping a larger reserve than he normally would. Once the San Ramon station opens he would feel comfortable reducing it. He's also waiting for the Emeryville station at A/C Transit to be converted to full retail and its capacity increased, as that will be the one most convenient for him to use on his commute (across the Bay Bridge).

The dispenser was acting up, and when he got there he was unable to fuel. He called True Zero and they were able to reset it remotely, but there was still some problem as he was only able to get about 1.6 kg. out of the 2.5 kg or so he figured he needed to be full, so he let True Zero know (and also the Mirai Facebook group, which is apparently far more active than the moribund mytoyotamirai.com forum).

 

[GRA]

For those who care about this sort of thing, via GCC:

Toyota Mirai FCV wins at the e-Rally Monte-Carlo

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161019-mirai.html

Driven by Artur Prusak and Thierry Benchetrit, the hydrogen-powered Toyota Mirai from Toyota France took first place in the first e-Rally Monte-Carlo, which was held between Fontainebleau and Monaco.

The three Mirai cars entered by Toyota France, one of which was driven by Georges Marsan, the Mayor of Monaco, all finished the race after completing a course of more than 1,000 km (621 miles).

Using a mobile refueling station developed by Air Liquide, the performance of the three cars demonstrated the sustainability of the hydrogen fuel cell over a long distance. . . .

Thirty-five crews of nine different nationalities were registered, primarily with battery electric vehicles. . . .

Not that it should be a surprise when a car with rapid refueling and long range beats vehicles which lack one or both, at any distance beyond the un-refueled/un-recharged range.

 

[RegGuheert]

Not that it should be a surprise when a car with rapid refueling and long range beats vehicles which lack one or both, at any distance beyond the un-refueled/un-recharged range.

It was a bit of a surprise to me! I thought: "How did they refuel a Toyota Mirai on some random course with no refueling infrastructure?" But then I read the part you quoted about having mobile refueling tankers...

In my book that's roughly equivalent to a solar-powered airplane that is accompanied by a Boeing 747 on its trip around the world.

 

[GRA]

Not that it should be a surprise when a car with rapid refueling and long range beats vehicles which lack one or both, at any distance beyond the un-refueled/un-recharged range.

It was a bit of a surprise to me! I thought: "How did they refuel a Toyota Mirai on some random course with no refueling infrastructure?" But then I read the part you quoted about having mobile refueling tankers...

In my book that's roughly equivalent to a solar-powered airplane that is accompanied by a Boeing 747 on its trip around the world.

Yup, lacking fueling infrastructure on the route(s), you've got to have mobile refueling (or recharging). although it looks like the most direct, or at least the fastest route per Google Maps is 902 km or about 550 miles, so that probably could have been done with just a single refueling stop depending on terrain and weather. I never ran T&D rallyes, just CM/Nav/Gimmick, but it appears they had several timed legs, at least I'm guessing that's what they mean by 'Regularity'. See https://acm.mc/en/rallye-monte-carlo-des-energies-nouvelles/

 

[smkettner]

The rally proves nothing except with an unlimited budget for fuel and support you can run a bit faster with hydrogen.

 

[GRA]

The rally proves nothing except with an unlimited budget for fuel and support you can run a bit faster with hydrogen.

I agree, although a bit faster is moot in a T&D rallye, where the point is how accurately you can hold a given speed in a timed leg. But for any normal road trip, it's not 'a bit' faster, it's 'a lot' faster assuming fueling infrastructure is in place. In the recent Edmunds' drive from Santa Monica to SLT, 8h 33 min. enroute including 15 minutes of unnecessary stops, versus 10h 3 min. is 15% faster, 19.4% if the extra 15 minutes is left out. Most people prefer a car that saves them 1.5 to 1.75 hours on a 489 mile trip (and doesn't control where they eat or stop for the night). Does it even need to be pointed out that most BEV owners prefer one like a Tesla that has longer range and faster recharging over one with shorter range and slower re-charging, for the same reasons?

 

[GRA]

In October, Toyota sold/leased 103 Mirais in the U.S., making 813 YTD, and 885? total including the 72? from 2015. This puts it ahead of the FFE (73 last month and 734 for the year), Smart, ELR, B250e and similar low-volume PEVs for the year, although M-B S550H (jumped from 41 in Sep. to 174 last month) and BMW 330e (54 to 92) sales are growing as inventory increases, so those two may overtake the Mirai.

 

[cwerdna]

I drive thoisands of miles a month in SoCal, and I've never seen a Hydrogen car. Not one.

Surprised you hadn't seen Honda's FCX Clarity or Mercedes' B-Class FCV. Maybe those were based around LA and not San Diego? I test drove those + at least 2 other hydrogen FCEVs at Alt Car Expo in 2012 (IIRC).

I suddenly started seeing a bunch of Mirais in Aug and Sep.

I saw one many months ago at the hydrogen fueling station near my work.

As I posted on 8/28/16 elsewhere:
Mirai sightings in the wild are pretty rare for me (not counting auto shows or events). Prior to today, I'd only seen a single 1 in the wild, at a hydrogen fueling station near work. I was with someone at the time so I wasn't able stop to talk to the driver.

Oddly, I saw 2 today: 1 parked (w/ plates) and 1 on the road w/o plates yet.

And then on 9/3:
Re: Mirai sightings, I spotted a black/dark one a few nights ago in a parking lot w/a guy getting out from it. The only one I ever saw fueling was also of the same/similar color, so it might've been the same vehicle....

The sightings are picking up for me. I spotted 3 in the past week or so. One was at a body shop I had to go to get my front bumper on my Prius repainted (long story... I wasn't even driving). The Mirai had some rear end damage so its rear bumper was missing.

The other two were on the road. One was on Saturday going towards my neighborhood. Whenever he accelerated from a stop light and harder (?), I could see water dribbling down out of the back.

 

[GRA]

<snip>
The sightings are picking up for me. I spotted 3 in the past week or so. One was at a body shop I had to go to get my front bumper on my Prius repainted (long story... I wasn't even driving). The Mirai had some rear end damage so its rear bumper was missing.

The other two were on the road. One was on Saturday going towards my neighborhood. Whenever he accelerated from a stop light and harder (?), I could see water dribbling down out of the back.

What, you mean it hadn't exploded instantly when hit, with a fireball that took out at least the adjoining neighborhood if not the entire city? And water dribbling - surely all the water vapor will boost the local humidity and alter the local weather, unlike the case with ICEs, which tend to do their dribbling when idling? Oh, the apocalypse is upon us, and we're doomed, doomed! :lol:

 

[smkettner]

Do the tanks need to be emptied for baking on the paint?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Dear hydrogen folks,

It appears the "gig is up". But, don't worry; the state of California will still be giving uber-favorable status to hydrogen cars (over EVs), while sucking tens of millions in taxpayer fund for hydrogen stations for the next ten years or more. They will get their hands on oodles of the VW "dieselgate" bucks, and lots more.


https://electrek.co/2016/11/07/toyota-long-range-battery-powered-electric-cars-2020-hydrogen-fuel-cells-failing/


"Now one of the most prominent proponents of hydrogen fuel cell cars, Toyota, is reportedly planning to mass produce battery-powered long-range electric cars by 2020."

"The news comes as Toyota is having difficulties selling the Mirai, its hydrogen cars, in the US. Despite cutting the price on several occasions, with now a lease at only $350 (down from $500) in California, the Japanese automaker can’t find a market for the vehicle and only delivered 782 units since it started deliveries last year – and that’s including the state buying dozens of them for their own fleets to justify the millions of dollars spent on refuelling infrastructure.he hydrogen lobby will be still cashing checks from the state of California for a decade or more."

 

[lorenfb]

Dear hydrogen folks,

It appears the "gig is up". But, don't worry; the state of California will still be giving uber-favorable status to hydrogen cars (over EVs), while sucking tens of millions in taxpayer fund for hydrogen stations for the next ten years or more. They will get their hands on oodles of the VW "dieselgate" bucks, and lots more.


https://electrek.co/2016/11/07/toyota-long-range-battery-powered-electric-cars-2020-hydrogen-fuel-cells-failing/


"Now one of the most prominent proponents of hydrogen fuel cell cars, Toyota, is reportedly planning to mass produce battery-powered long-range electric cars by 2020."

"The news comes as Toyota is having difficulties selling the Mirai, its hydrogen cars, in the US. Despite cutting the price on several occasions, with now a lease at only $350 (down from $500) in California, the Japanese automaker can’t find a market for the vehicle and only delivered 782 units since it started deliveries last year – and that’s including the state buying dozens of them for their own fleets to justify the millions of dollars spent on refuelling infrastructure.he hydrogen lobby will be still cashing checks from the state of California for a decade or more."

Like some, you've surmised more than the reality, i.e. Toyota for the near term will "push" the hybrid
to its next phase, a BEV, as an interim small market vehicle as will most automotive OEMs. As do most
automotive OEMs, Toyota views a long term "seamless" transition for the typical ICEV consumer as a FCEV.

 

[user 10599]

This weekend I received notice from Toyota that enough stations have been built that I'm now considered eligible to get a Mirai. Looking at the map they provided, not even close to enough stations. :roll:

While I like the Mirai, absent an adequately developed fueling infrastructure it will be a no-go. Though I do appreciate their lowering the lease as it is getting easier to justify economically. Looking at the map when I first did the intro test drive, they were indicating that by now there would be enough stations for it to work. But now it looks like we are at least another year away. That does not bode well. I think they missed the window of opportunity as the longer range BEVs will eat their lunch. I know I will find it hard to justify once I can choose an affordable BEV with over 150 mile range. And I actually went to the intro with an open, even optimistic mind and I do like the car.

 

[lorenfb]

I think they missed the window of opportunity as the longer range BEVs will eat their lunch. I know I will find it hard to justify once I can choose an affordable BEV with over 150 mile range.

Yes, based on your immediate needs, a BEV with a nominal rate of 150 miles satisfies it. Again, range is only one factor
for the average consumer when transitioning from an ICEV. As a result in the near term, the BEV market will continue to grow slowly.

 

[GlennD]

I finally saw one on the road yesterday. Wow that front end was whipped with an ugly stick!

 

[GRA]

Edmunds' long-term test wrap up: http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/2016/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html

 

[GRA]

Finally saw my first Mirai on the street today (as opposed to at a special event). I'm somewhat surprised it has taken this long, although I expect there are a lot less of them in the East Bay than the South Bay - cwerdna's been seeing them there for a while now.