Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[DaveEV]

Parked in the garage in the summer for a period of time, battery pack is typically at 68-70 degrees F. When I take the Leaf out on moderately hot days (max temp of 94-95 degrees), battery pack gets up to 90 degrees F. and doesn't drop below 80 by recharge the next morning. On the especially hot days it would be higher.

Your garage much be much cooler than mine. So by not driving your pack should stay around 70F (21C). Driving the pack will vary between 80-90F (27-32C) or about a 10C rise maximum. Factor in cycling losses and your battery probably loses capacity twice as fast by driving it as parking it.

FWIW - My garage right now is 75-80F between morning late afternoon. Daily high upper 80s. Pack temperature is also upper 80s when I get home. By morning pack is back down to ~80F. I certainly don't get as much benefit by parking it as you do.

That's a good point. If I had faith that the glide path would be 10 years by driving the Leaf on hot summer days (what is predicted by the model), I would certainly take it to work. My strong impression is that heat is a lot more damaging to the battery than the model suggests. Of course, I can't prove it any more than others can prove me wrong. All of the input is good food for thought.

I'm of the opinion that one buys a car for a purpose and while it makes sense to attempt to prolong the life of it, going so far as to not drive it because it may be worse for the battery than not driving it (or more expensive for those who refuse to pay for public charging) defeats the purpose of buying the LEAF in the first place. Especially when you see news like this: MIT study says combustion emissions cause ~200,000 premature deaths/year in US; vehicles and power generation top sources

You are correct that the real question is how much additional value are you getting out of the LEAF by parking it for 2 months of the year to extend the life of the LEAF by perhaps a few years? I figure by the time you get out to 8 years, the cost of a new pack should be substantially less - and even lower if one considers a used pack.

It seems that at the very least you could get into Nissan's battery rental program for $100/mo which would cost you $3600 for 3 years. Is that enough to make up for not-driving the LEAF 2 months out of the year for 10 years?

At least for me - the car will remain very useful for commuting basically indefinitely. The real issue is that as it ages it becomes less and less useful for weekend driving unless there is convenient charging available.

 

[TimLee]

At least for me - the car will remain very useful for commuting basically indefinitely.

I'm in that same situation, the 2011 LEAF will still be usable for a large % of my driving way below 70% capacity. 32 mile round trip to downtown Chattanooga, once or twice a week. Most of other local driving < 15 mile trip.
But where does the degradation curve head after 70%?
Only curves I've seen seem to stop at 70%?
Looks like a polynomial that flattens pretty quickly, but is still declining slowly at 70%.
But some polynomials then fall off the cliff pretty fast. And that seems to be most people's experience with lithium cobalt in laptops / cellphones.
What does the LEAF battery do?

drees could you add your location? I'm sure I can find it somewhere on MNL, but didn't want to hunt. Thanks.

 

[JPWhite]

My guess is that most of those in Southern California will miss the "hot battery", as they won't quite make the 5 year/60,000 mile cutoff. Hard to be sure, of course.

Probably a safe assumption. Nissan have a lot of data about their battery and its real world performance. I would guess they set the new warranty terms to help outliers only, not the majority. Therein lies the irony, those who drove their cars without regard for battery health are more likely to benefit than those who have babied their batteries from when the car was new.

Personally I have used my car in the summer, actually clocking up 2,000 miles during July. I'm with Drees. We bought it to use it. We're early adopters, we may find ourselves not saving much money or even losing some over a Versa. But the experience is worth it.

 

[Reddy]

That's a good point. If I had faith that the glide path would be 10 years by driving the Leaf on hot summer days (what is predicted by the model), I would certainly take it to work. My strong impression is that heat is a lot more damaging to the battery than the model suggests. Of course, I can't prove it any more than others can prove me wrong. All of the input is good food for thought.

I'm of the opinion that one buys a car for a purpose and while it makes sense to attempt to prolong the life of it, going so far as to not drive it because it may be worse for the battery than not driving it (or more expensive for those who refuse to pay for public charging) defeats the purpose of buying the LEAF in the first place.

Good points and I agree. However, since I switch from driving the Leaf to bicycling, it's certainly better for my health, and given how the power mix switches to more gas in the summer, it's probably better for the environment as well.

 

[mwalsh]

but that leased vehicles belong to Nissan which decides what to do with them. He said the dealer where the return is made has the option of buying the car at around the residual value for their used car lot.

Yep. That's exactly what I thought would be the case. Thanks for confirming it.

Ergo: Lease returns ARE Nissan's problem going forward. Or they could be if lesees and dealers don't buy the residual out. And who is going to do that based on what we know now? Only rubes...that's who!

Of course, then Nissan could just wholesale them through auction houses. But I can only imagine what a flood of used LEAFs at wholesale would do to realized prices.

 

[thankyouOB]

My guess is that most of those in Southern California will miss the "hot battery", as they won't quite make the 5 year/60,000 mile cutoff. Hard to be sure, of course.

Probably a safe assumption. Nissan have a lot of data about their battery and its real world performance. I would guess they set the new warranty terms to help outliers only, not the majority. Therein lies the irony, those who drove their cars without regard for battery health are more likely to benefit than those who have babied their batteries from when the car was new.

Personally I have used my car in the summer, actually clocking up 2,000 miles during July. I'm with Drees. We bought it to use it. We're early adopters, we may find ourselves not saving much money or even losing some over a Versa. But the experience is worth it.

agreed. i bought the car to use it. i could extend the life if i drive it half that year. in fact, that would work with any car.
but then, i have to drive another vehicle and wear that out.
you are talking about trying to assess the relative value of degrading an ICE you own, against the life and value of the LEAF battery. very difficult when you have so many unknown variables with regard to degradation of the LEAF battery.
as discussed, does it age some just being parked and hot?
how cool do i have to keep it to lower the degradation on a parked LEAF so that the calculations run in my favor?
if you knew all the degradation factors with some certainty, as well as the price for a replacement, you could make the calculation.
otherwise, nuts.
i bought it to use it.

 

[thankyouOB]

substantially less - and even lower if one considers a used pack.

It seems that at the very least you could get into Nissan's battery rental program for $100/mo which would cost you $3600 for 3 years. Is that enough to make up for not-driving the LEAF 2 months out of the year for 10 years?

the basic flaw in this calculation is that we dont know if the price will be $100.
nissan said something sorta around about that figure, it but was as definitive on the ~$100/month lease as it was about promising a price to buy a replacement battery.
and we found out that they didnt really mean they were going to give us a price to buy the battery.

as folks like to tell me about complaining about the SYB: why dont we just wait?
just sayin.
speculate away, however, i enjoy reading about it.

 

[JasonA]

Quick question, would this apply to salvage titled vehicles that were purchased?

Thanks!

 

[TomT]

At the 2011 and 2012 residual values, I believe a dealer would have to be crazy to buy them...

Ergo: Lease returns ARE Nissan's problem going forward. Or they could be if lesees and dealers don't buy the residual out. And who is going to do that based on what we know now? Only rubes...that's who!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Quick question, would this apply to salvage titled vehicles that were purchased?

Thanks!

You're asking if the new battery warranty will apply to a salvage title car? Or are you assuming the Nissan "buy-back" cars are salvage (they are not)?

 

[oscar]

The first lost bar is huge at 33k miles. I'm now driving around with 65 miles range max. Most of my driving is below 60 mph. I fear after 2.5 years, my Leaf will not be useful for my purpose. Also who care about 2nd or 3rd bars lost because 1st bar lost is huge!!!

I feel sad for any future Leaf owner come to realization with 1st bar lost and driving around with 65 miles range! Once my car come April 2014. I'm selling my leaf or Nissan can offer me a trade in for a lease. My advice don't own a Leaf, painful experience!!!

Nissan offer all Leaf owner 2011 & 2012 for trade in for a new lease! No deal to $100 monthly lease of battery pack for life. I rather get new Leaf every 2-3 years lease knowing I get new battery pack. If I lease $100 monthly for battery pack and lost 1st bar I'm stuck with 65 miles range for next 6 years dumb deal!

 

[TomT]

I have no problem with your strategy or results, I simply would not want to own a car that I could not drive for 1/6 of the year due to it being warm outside...

You may not agree with my strategy, but you can't argue with my results.

 

[Pipcecil]

I don't see any use to baby the vehicle. Yes, maybe I could get more out of my car if I don't drive in the hot Texas Summers, but I bought a car to drive it (and enjoy too! (Fahrvergnügen!). What makes babying the LEAF for me worse, my wife's daily commute is twice mine, meaning if we would use her vehicle on the weekend, we would put way more miles than it should get (we always use my car for the weekends, and even then she puts more miles on it). Unfortunately on the flip side, the range loss from degredation has been unplesent here in Texas. Dallas-Fort Worth is very very spread out. Long distances and highways are the only way to really get around. My roundtrip work commute is 55 miles, and I average about mid 60's on a nice summer day to VLBW. You can see with only 10 miles to spare, any problems (high winds, rain, cold weather) are extremely problematic, and it will only get worse. Take that its almost 25 miles to get to downtown dallas and then farther north usually means we either don't take the leaf or QC (usually twice) to make those trips. Eventually we will have to stop those trips as the degredation gets worse. I used to QC in north dallas and make it home (at 80% QC charge) with 4ish bars remaning. Now I am lucky with two bars and usually hit LBW (at two bars). Soon I won't be able to make it from the QC to home!

But, I don't see any use babying it. Its gonna get worse regardless. I might as well save my wife's vehicle from overuse and beat this already beaten horse into the ground.

 

[evnow]

The first lost bar is huge at 33k miles. I'm now driving around with 65 miles range max.

In winter we don't get even 65 miles.

 

[jhm614]

My roundtrip work commute is 55 miles, and I average about mid 60's on a nice summer day to VLBW. You can see with only 10 miles to spare, any problems (high winds, rain, cold weather) are extremely problematic, and it will only get worse.

I have a similar commute. How much of a difference would L2 workplace charging make? It would completely eliminate my occasional hesitation to use climate control and give me the ability to keep up with faster traffic without worrying about range. Workplace L2 would also let me charge to 80% instead of 100. Still doesn't fix the weekend problem but L2 charging for mid-range / upper-ranger commuters could be a big deal.

 

[surfingslovak]

Workplace L2 would also let me charge to 80% instead of 100. Still doesn't fix the weekend problem but L2 charging for mid-range / upper-ranger commuters could be a big deal.

We get only level 1, although it's a compromise, it works remarkably well due to the length of time the car spends in the company parking lot.

 

[JPWhite]

Workplace L2 would also let me charge to 80% instead of 100. Still doesn't fix the weekend problem but L2 charging for mid-range / upper-ranger commuters could be a big deal.

We get only level 1, although it's a compromise, it works remarkably well due to the length of time the car spends in the company parking lot.

It's a pet peev of mine that so much public money was spent on putting level2 evse's into locations like McDonald's where they are of minimal benefit to EV drivers. That same money spent on encouraging and assisting employers installing level1/2 chargers would have done much more to encourage EV adoption. I may have to switch to my wife's Altima this winter. The 60 mile round trip on a 1 bar loss LEAF is a stretch.

 

[jhm614]

It's a pet peev of mine that so much public money was spent on putting level2 evse's into locations like McDonald's where they are of minimal benefit to EV drivers. That same money spent on encouraging and assisting employers installing level1/2 chargers would have done much more to encourage EV adoption. I may have to switch to my wife's Altima this winter. The 60 mile round trip on a 1 bar loss LEAF is a stretch.

Yes, workplace charging should have been part of the EV project -- free charger at home, free charger at the work place. Maybe there will be an EV Project V2 -- with ChargePoint at the helm?

 

[tombobcat]

The first lost bar is huge at 33k miles. I'm now driving around with 65 miles range max. Most of my driving is below 60 mph. I fear after 2.5 years, my Leaf will not be useful for my purpose.

I'm in the exact situation, I can barely make my daily 60 miles round trip. My expectation when I bought the car, based on Nissan info., it's still useful for me even after ten years - 100 miles range when new, 30% battery capacity degraded after 10 years so I still should have 70 miles range.

Now, I'm not sure I can make it after another year.

 

[thankyouOB]

It's a pet peev of mine that so much public money was spent on putting level2 evse's into locations like McDonald's where they are of minimal benefit to EV drivers. That same money spent on encouraging and assisting employers installing level1/2 chargers would have done much more to encourage EV adoption. I may have to switch to my wife's Altima this winter. The 60 mile round trip on a 1 bar loss LEAF is a stretch.

Yes, workplace charging should have been part of the EV project -- free charger at home, free charger at the work place. Maybe there will be an EV Project V2 -- with ChargePoint at the helm?

ecotality L2 program DID include installing at work places. Mine, with some 3000 daily commuters, installed a dozen Ecotality devices under the program, though after the first year you no longer may charge for free.