OrientExpress
Well-known member
Yes, and the individual cells are no longer sealed "tuna can" cases, but open on the sides.
Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement
- Thread starter BBrockman
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TomT
Well-known member
Imagine the improvement in performance and range if they had stuck with aluminum...
OrientExpress said:
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
TomT said:
half a mile. maybe a whole mile.
I had 2 passengers the other day and made it 93 miles with only about 16-18 of those miles affected by traffic. so need more weight than that to make a significant impact
DanCar
Well-known member
Do you have a reference for that? Here is a reference for chemistry tweak for 2013 model year:mwalsh said:
http://insideevs.com/nissan-ceo-carlos-ghosn-second-generation-battery-is-coming-online-now/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
DanCar said:
Same tweak. Didn't start making it into cars until summer 2013, so far as I know. See the post from Kelly Olsen at the bottom of that link you posted.
edatoakrun
Well-known member
OrientExpress said:
Are you sure about that?
So when I replace my 2011 battery with a Gen 2, I will reduce curb weight by ~300 LBS?
That amount of weight reduction would significantly improve my LEAF's range in my mountain driving conditions, by reducing both the kWh wasted in friction brake use, and the fraction of kWh of ascent energy lost when recycled through regen on descents.
Acceleration should improve quite a bit as well...
OrientExpress
Well-known member
Yes, I am sure about the 300 pound weight difference between the Gen 1 and Gen 2 batteries. I got this information from my contacts within Nissan engineering when the 2013 car was introduced. I had them do a briefing to SF Bay area LEAF owners back in 2013 when the car car was introduced which covered this and the other the changes of the Gen 2 car.
And that is an interesting thought that a Gen 1 car might accelerate faster with a replacement battery. I suspect that it would not be more that .02 sec or so faster. A stock 11~12 car does 0-60 in 9.9 sec and a 13 ~15 car does it in 10.1. And while there are a whole host of variables that account for those numbers, weight certainly has a factor in it.
That will be a good exercise to take a 11~12 car with the replacement battery and take it down to a truck scale and weigh it. As a baseline reference, a 2011 SL comes in at exactly 3400 pounds. Also in double checking my notes the weight delta of a 2011 vs. 2013~14 SL is 40 not 45 pounds. My bad.
Lastly, the reason that the Gen 2 cars have steel body panels rather than aluminum is twofold, one is cost, but more importantly, the other is manufacturing tooling. When the car was localized in the US and the UK, these facilities only have steel stamping capacity.
And that is an interesting thought that a Gen 1 car might accelerate faster with a replacement battery. I suspect that it would not be more that .02 sec or so faster. A stock 11~12 car does 0-60 in 9.9 sec and a 13 ~15 car does it in 10.1. And while there are a whole host of variables that account for those numbers, weight certainly has a factor in it.
That will be a good exercise to take a 11~12 car with the replacement battery and take it down to a truck scale and weigh it. As a baseline reference, a 2011 SL comes in at exactly 3400 pounds. Also in double checking my notes the weight delta of a 2011 vs. 2013~14 SL is 40 not 45 pounds. My bad.
Lastly, the reason that the Gen 2 cars have steel body panels rather than aluminum is twofold, one is cost, but more importantly, the other is manufacturing tooling. When the car was localized in the US and the UK, these facilities only have steel stamping capacity.
JPWhite
Well-known member
OrientExpress said:
I didn't know that, thanks for sharing.
The 2011/12 cars are kinda special then as the few LEAF's that have aluminum panels.
There's no way the '13+ battery is 300lbs lighter. Maybe 30lbs. Would be impressed if it was 2-3x more.
The entire '13 LEAF in Japan is only 80kg/176lbs lighter (which kept the aluminum body doors/hood). I'm sure most of the weight came from moving the charger up front and the redesigned PDU.
The entire '13 LEAF in Japan is only 80kg/176lbs lighter (which kept the aluminum body doors/hood). I'm sure most of the weight came from moving the charger up front and the redesigned PDU.
DanCar
Well-known member
Online in September 2012 and didn't make it into cars until nine months later? I don't think so.mwalsh said:
Irrelevant. No one said there was a range increase.
TomT
Well-known member
Vgauge shows that a 300 pound weight reduction in the Leaf would be good for a 1/2 second improvement in 0 to 60... My experience with two additional people in the car, and on the routes I usually take that have significant elevation changes, showed a bigger range hit than what you experienced...
DaveinOlyWA said:
keydiver
Well-known member
JPWhite said:
I'm a bit more optimistic than you. I think you should watch Prof. Dahn's battery presentation, especially from ~30 min thru 45 min. With just a few electrolyte additives, like VC, the cycling capacity is increased greatly, as much as 20 fold in their testing! If Nissan is privy to any of this research, not just additives for heat tolerance, I suspect the new batteries will also yield improvements in cycling that every Leaf owner will benefit from. Its amazing how as little as 1% of a secret additive can increase the coulombic efficiency, cycle life, or heat tolerance so dramatically!
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15796" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GetOffYourGas
Well-known member
keydiver said:Its amazing how as little as 1% of a secret additive can increase the coulombic efficiency, cycle life, or heat tolerance so dramatically!
Chemistry is often surprising like that. Sort of like how 0.001% of the right additive in the right places can turn one of the most abundant elements on earth (silicon - found in common sand) into one of the most useful devices in modern technology (the transistor).
I can definitely believe that this is possible - the key is finding the right additive, the right concentration, and the right location.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
That is not my quote!keydiver said:DaveinOlyWA said:
I'm a bit more optimistic than you. I think you should watch Prof. Dahn's battery presentation, especially from ~30 min thru 45 min. With just a few electrolyte additives, like VC, the cycling capacity is increased greatly, as much as 20 fold in their testing! If Nissan is privy to any of this research, not just additives for heat tolerance, I suspect the new batteries will also yield improvements in cycling that every Leaf owner will benefit from. Its amazing how as little as 1% of a secret additive can increase the coulombic efficiency, cycle life, or heat tolerance so dramatically!
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15796" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
keydiver
Well-known member
Corrected. You messed up the quote in your first post, and I didn't catch that.
My thinking is: why would Nissan do just ONE tweak to the chemistry, when all this research has been done in the last few years that allows them to hopefully make a huge leap forward? Time will tell, but I'm hoping my next battery is the last battery my Leaf will need during my ownership. I can't wait until the first Leaf owner on here, hopefully in a REALLY hot state, gets the new pack, so we can track the GIDS over time.
JPWhite
Well-known member
keydiver said:
Maybe I am just jaded.
I took Nissan at their word when they countered criticism for not including a TMS with their claim their battery didn't need it. Maybe it doesn't need it now with the Lizard Battery. I could be reasonably excused for being wary of heat tolerant claims, but I'll take their word for it again. To take this one step further and anticipate an improvement in cycle life which Nissan have *not* claimed was a goal in this battery tweak is too much exuberant optimism for my stomach.
I hope you are right and I am wrong
JPWhite
Well-known member
keydiver said:
I see the Lizard battery as a stepping stone to the next generation of LEAF battery you yearn for which promises to go twice as far for the same physical weight. http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2009/11/nissan-long-range-battery-may-be-ready.html
Brian Brockman was clear in his statement that this is a tweak for hot climates, and the battery pack exhibits the same charging and range characteristics as previous iterations of the pack. So this isn't the Gen2 battery we all want to see.
Nissan have been talking about a 150 EPA Mile LEAF. A Gen2 battery would accomplish that goal.
This announcement is a positive one. I see this as closure on making good with owners of early generation LEAF's. We have a capacity warranty, we have a better battery (which should match the 80% in 5 year 70% in 10 year goal) and we have a good price for a replacement. 3 reasons to be cheerful, much like Ian Dury sang about. http://youtu.be/qcjh1a9Yoao?t=1m4s
I'm just not letting myself get carried away.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
+1drees said:
My report from our visit said it was a 30 kg (66 lbs.) reduction for the entire pack:
RegGuheert said:
keydiver
Well-known member
JPWhite said:
I'm not supposing that the new battery will have more capacity, I think that will stay the same because it is limited by the physical size they are stuck with. But, I am very hopeful that the battery will KEEP that capacity much longer, enduring both the heat and more charging cycles. I consider that a Gen2 battery, but not the Gen2 vehicle that will really launch Nissan's EV plans. A durable battery chemistry + 50% more capacity for just slightly more $ than the present Leaf would make news, if they can get it out there before Tesla.
dhanson865
Well-known member
drees said:
Putting the 2013 battery pack in the 2011/2012 leaf requires an adapter kit. How much does that kit weigh?
Maybe the equivalent weight of the kit exists in the 2013 leaf moving some of the weight from the battery pack to the car that holds it.
That would allow for a greatly reduced battery pack weight making it easier to swap packs but keeping the structural integrity needed for protecting the pack inside the car.
