Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[HighDesertDriver]

So who here has actually had a battery pack replaced under warranty?

Our's was replaced under warranty in June. It took about a week for the new battery and modified 2011 installation kit to arrive. We got the car back the day after we dropped it off for the replacement. Capacity per Leaf DD has remained constant since replacement, but m/kWh has slightly increased because regeneration starts earlier.

 

[hillzofvalp]

My leaf is at 58300 miles and 68%SOH. It is beginning to sputter---literally.

@bubblelyft

I live 30 min from Nissan HQ and 45 minutes from Leaf Battery plant. I was thinking about organizing a sort of flash mob to bring up this issue of not allowing 30kWh upgrade to older cars of the same chassis... In other words, if they are going to make that claim, they ought to at least back it with some hard facts instead of vagueness. We can also tie in to this argument that they are encouraging very wasteful consumerism, on the order of 2 tons * 200,000

I even offered them money to buy a 30kWh pack instead of them paying for my 24kWh replacement. I'm trying to give them money.. and they won't take it. Here is a perfect example of not giving customers what they want, and losing money as a result. The best thing nissan needs right now is a very strong following, similar to the tesla community.. NOT solely profits.

edit: ONE MORE THING: The last consumer affairs person I talked to actually told me FLAT OUT that if I wanted to get the warranty replacement, GO QUICK CHARGE A LOT! COME ON, NISSAN, who wrote your frickin' owners manual?

 

[hillzofvalp]

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer! And, personally, I doubt you will ever see such an upgrade... It makes virtually no business sense for Nissan to do so.

If there's a good person to ask, then by all means, ask. It's a very interesting and important question.

I disagree!! Getting extremely positive regard from your customers in an extremely competitive new industry can only happen if you have good customer relations.. --- which in turn will increase your referrals and sales, which will in turn bring down your costs and increase your profits.

It's sort of like how forever people paid $$$ for razor blades and now there is something called Dollar Shave Club. Same rules apply, only Leaf consumables are a little less manly.

 

[keydiver]

My leaf is at 58300 miles and 68%SOH. It is beginning to sputter---literally.

Do you have another car to use? As close as you are getting to 60,000 miles, and seeing that summer is over, I would charge it to 100% and leave it sit until it drops that 4th bar. I am also at 68% now, but I'm in Florida, and at only 39,000 miles, so I will definitely qualify.

 

[WetEV]

In other words, if they are going to make that claim, they ought to at least back it with some hard facts instead of vagueness.

Think about corporate liability lawsuits, if the 30kWh battery doesn't work almost 100% of the time for 100% of the installs.

 

[davewill]

.. I even offered them money to buy a 30kWh pack instead of them paying for my 24kWh replacement. ...

They wouldn't want to allow you to pay the difference even if they did decide to support 30kWh upgrades generally. It would be way too much incentive for some people to trash their battery on purpose.

 

[walterbays]

They wouldn't want to allow you to pay the difference even if they did decide to support 30kWh upgrades generally. It would be way too much incentive for some people to trash their battery on purpose.

Another consequence of their all-or-nothing capacity warranty. If they gave a true (pro rata) warranty where if you fall a little short they pay a little, then it could make sense for them to use that opportunity to sell you more.

I still think it's GREAT that Nissan sells replacement batteries, and at a reasonable price, but alas the numbers just don't add up for me. Without a pro rata warranty on the new battery I must assume that the new one will also be good for only about 4 years. Four years life for $5-6k, with the depreciated value of the car so low, and only loosely correlated with battery health, doesn't seem worth it.

Better to put the money into a new Volt which has the same practical 50 mile electric range as the old Leaf, after which it doesn't depend on dependable QC infrastructure, and whose real world experience shows very low battery degradation.

 

[JPWhite]

Another consequence of their all-or-nothing capacity warranty. If they gave a true (pro rata) warranty where if you fall a little short they pay a little, then it could make sense for them to use that opportunity to sell you more.

I still think it's GREAT that Nissan sells replacement batteries, and at a reasonable price, but alas the numbers just don't add up for me. Without a pro rata warranty on the new battery I must assume that the new one will also be good for only about 4 years. Four years life for $5-6k, with the depreciated value of the car so low, and only loosely correlated with battery health, doesn't seem worth it.

Better to put the money into a new Volt which has the same practical 50 mile electric range as the old Leaf, after which it doesn't depend on dependable QC infrastructure, and whose real world experience shows very low battery degradation.

I take it you are in the same boat as I am then, over 60,000 miles and with a depleted battery. I hadn't considered the Volt. My 72 mile daily commute would mean I'd burn gas everyday. Hmmm. Not sure I'm up for that.

Even a heavily discounted 2015 LEAF will depreciate more over the next 4 years compared to a new a battery at $6k or so.

I'll get my dealer to give me a price on a battery when I get the 75,000 Mile service done at the end of this month, then decide on what to do next.

 

[TimLee]

... ONE MORE THING: The last consumer affairs person I talked to actually told me FLAT OUT that if I wanted to get the warranty replacement, GO QUICK CHARGE A LOT! ...

Some of the most honest customer relations feedback I have ever heard :shock:
Impressive
But it is a lot easier for you to do that in Nashville where there are many more LEAF and many more functioning DCQC.
In Chattanooga within range of my home they are all dead in the water.
Murphy Express and Cracker Barrel will not spend any $ to repair.
The Nissan defective design at Mountain View, dealer expects Nissan to step up and fix it. Hell may freeze over first.
Sears supposedly has parts on order and supposedly will repair.
But for the time being Chattanooga that got the first DCQC in Tennessee is dead in the water.
Only L2 for the time being.
And a lot of them are out of service too.

 

[user 10599]

Everyone is focused on the $5-6k for the battery replacement as not making sense because of the depreciated value of their existing Leaf.

Depreciation is really only relevant if you plan to sell the car imminently. For an SL which cost $25k after tax incentives/rebates (California), you have the opportunity to double the car's life for 20% more investment. Conversely, if you sell your depreciated Leaf now and seek to buy a Volt or another new car, you will be forking over much more money as well as start a brand new depreciation curve.

If you are the type that likes new cars every 3-5 years, that is understandable. The auto industry thrives off of the multitude of you guys. But please don't tout that as something that makes financial sense. :ugeek:

 

[hillzofvalp]

I'll stop driving at the 59950 mark, which will be pretty easy to do since the car is not really the safest choice as a winter commuter with only 35 mile range.

Think about corporate liability lawsuits, if the 30kWh battery doesn't work almost 100% of the time for 100% of the installs.

Solution: Make it work 100% of the time for 100% of the installs and design your cars to be future proof from the get go. And increase your liability insurance coverage and have that cost reflected in the cost of the battery replacement if you deem necessary. They already went through this process once to allow the updated chemistry 2015 pack into the older models, why not do it again. There is literally no reason not to!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: I will buy a $10k battery from you maybe up to 4 times in 30 years, and you will have me locked in as a potential customer for other vehicle purchases!

edit: Didn't they change the pack modules from 2P to 4P? Correct me if I'm wrong. Sounds to me like about 20-24Ah per cell, so 60Ah for 3P which is close to original, If they did, that would mean they could have a 24kWh battery and a 30kwh with the same bms, housing, carriers, cells, etc just by running 3P instead of 4P. If that's the case, then it would be super, super stupid of them not to offer the 30kwh to older models.

 

[TomT]

Those of us who have been around since the beginning of the Leaf have long ago learned that Nissan is not very concerned with positive regard OR good customer relations...

I disagree!! Getting extremely positive regard from your customers in an extremely competitive new industry can only happen if you have good customer relations.

 

[TimLee]

^^^ +10
The hardest part to fathom about the LEAF experience.

I understand we would all like the LEAF to be upgradeable.
But it has been clear from early on Nissan would not do that.

It took them two years to recognize there was no other sane choice but to sell a replacement battery pack (with exchange).

They still fail to recognize the only sane choice was a pro-rated capacity warranty that backed up their original capacity degradation projections.

And you think they will magically see the light and offer the 30 kWh pack as an upgrade path on early adopter pre-2016 LEAFs :?:

 

[DaveEV]

edit: Didn't they change the pack modules from 2P to 4P?

It looks like the modules are packaged like two of the old modules stacked together, so a 30 kWh module would be 4 pairs of cells in series (2P-4S) compared to 2 pairs of cells in series (2P-2S). So each module now likely provides double the voltage compared to the old modules and is wired up identically to the 24 kWh battery.

 

[JPWhite]

Everyone is focused on the $5-6k for the battery replacement as not making sense because of the depreciated value of their existing Leaf.

Depreciation is really only relevant if you plan to sell the car imminently. :

From a straight financial choice you are right. However if I drive off the lot with my new battery and unfortunately get t-boned I lost the majority of my investment in the new battery. Even though i don't intend to sell the LEAF any time soon, I may not get to make that choice, it may get made for me. Once I've had the new battery a few years I'm probably ahead of buying a new car depreciation wise.

It can make sense to stick with a 4 year old LEAF and buy a new battery. I may well make that choice. There is that risk that nags tho.....

 

[JPWhite]

... ONE MORE THING: The last consumer affairs person I talked to actually told me FLAT OUT that if I wanted to get the warranty replacement, GO QUICK CHARGE A LOT! ...

Some of the most honest customer relations feedback I have ever heard :shock:
Impressive
But it is a lot easier for you to do that in Nashville where there are many more LEAF and many more functioning DCQC.
In Chattanooga within range of my home they are all dead in the water.
Murphy Express and Cracker Barrel will not spend any $ to repair.
The Nissan defective design at Mountain View, dealer expects Nissan to step up and fix it. Hell may freeze over first.
Sears supposedly has parts on order and supposedly will repair.
But for the time being Chattanooga that got the first DCQC in Tennessee is dead in the water.
Only L2 for the time being.
And a lot of them are out of service too.

Wow I didn't know that the DCFC scene was that bleak in Chattanooga.

So much for simply using DCFC more as your battery degrades to get around.

Sorry to hear your plight and I now feel privileged to live somewhere where I have multiple DCFC choices which are generally reliable enough to get me around

 

[dhanson865]

... ONE MORE THING: The last consumer affairs person I talked to actually told me FLAT OUT that if I wanted to get the warranty replacement, GO QUICK CHARGE A LOT! ...

Some of the most honest customer relations feedback I have ever heard :shock:
Impressive
But it is a lot easier for you to do that in Nashville where there are many more LEAF and many more functioning DCQC.
In Chattanooga within range of my home they are all dead in the water.
Murphy Express and Cracker Barrel will not spend any $ to repair.
The Nissan defective design at Mountain View, dealer expects Nissan to step up and fix it. Hell may freeze over first.
Sears supposedly has parts on order and supposedly will repair.
But for the time being Chattanooga that got the first DCQC in Tennessee is dead in the water.
Only L2 for the time being.
And a lot of them are out of service too.

Wow I didn't know that the DCFC scene was that bleak in Chattanooga.

So much for simply using DCFC more as your battery degrades to get around.

Sorry to hear your plight and I now feel privileged to live somewhere where I have multiple DCFC choices which are generally reliable enough to get me around

It's no better in East TN (Knoxville and points east of that)

There are chargers between Knoxville and Nashville along I-40 but there are none north, south, or east of Knoxville.

And I'm not sure how many work. It seems they are almost always in a state of needing repair.

plugshare comments from the closest chademo to my house (Cracker Barrel 716 North Campbell Station Road Knoxville, Tennessee 37934)

Pierre M a month ago
Bad last week. Why don't they repair these useful and expensive chargers now that they are installed.
Pierre M 3 months ago
after a user had to activate emergency button to end he session the board which affix just says ''out of work''
Pierre M 3 months ago
avoid for now. difficult to use and when you succeed it could be difficult to end session

Odds are if I tried to drive from Knoxville to Nashville I'd be stuck on a L2 charger for several hours in places I thought I might get a Chademo instead.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/51014-rumor-MX-Single-60A-charger?p=1143235&viewfull=1#post1143235

Asheville, NC to Knoxville TN is about 125 miles of I-40 with nothing faster than a 30A L2 charging station and you are dealing with elevation changes going over/through the mountains.

There might be a lot more Chademo in some places than a few years ago but for most of the US there isn't even a hint of Chademo around.

Heaven forbid you want to take an EV up I-81 from or to Knoxville.

or Hey what If I want to drive up or down I-75 from Kentucky to Knoxville or the other way around?

Yep, superchargers are more prevalent for me as a Leaf owner than the chademo chargers I could actually plug into. And I have some sense of progress with supercharger installs. I haven't seen a new chademo within 75 miles of my house since I got my Leaf and the old Chademo units are run by Blink so I'm never sure if they'll still be working when I get there.

I can at least vouch for the NC chademos all working as I used one in Hickory, one in Asheville, and one in Waynesville this year.

The key is that the Hickory unit was at a Nissan dealer and the other two were managed by Greenlots.

All the ones that don't work in TN that I know of are managed by Blink.

 

[walterbays]

Everyone is focused on the $5-6k for the battery replacement as not making sense because of the depreciated value of their existing Leaf.

Depreciation is really only relevant if you plan to sell the car imminently. For an SL which cost $25k after tax incentives/rebates (California), you have the opportunity to double the car's life for 20% more investment.

That's what I had always expected, and it may yet work out that way for many people if the new batteries are as good as we all hope they are. E.g., JPWhite with his 70 mile commute would be well served by a new $6k battery that gave him 107 miles of real world range and had a useful life of at least 5 years. And if it took 5 years for his new battery to degrade to 80% capacity where he'd be tight on range, by that time the charging infrastructure might have developed to the point that his range would effectively double with workplace charging and en-route quick charging. $6k to drive so many miles 100% electric for so many years is not a bad deal at all. Much better than driving a Volt with 29% of his miles on gasoline.

My point is that by offering the same non-warranty on the new batteries Nissan signals that they lack confidence that they are appreciably better than the old ones. What if the new battery also suffers severe premature degradation, and you have to trade in because the car can't deliver needed range? Well, the blue book trade-in value of a 2011 SL is $6,099. With a brand new $6k battery that probably takes the trade-in value all the way up to $6,100. At that point don't you wish you had traded it in before replacing the battery?

By contrast a Volt with a battery (and cooling system) proven resistant to degradation will deliver the same 50 mile range as the 2011 SL. It will run 100% electric in daily 40 mile commutes, burning gas only for road trips. You have the ICE maintenance woes of last century's cars. But by the time the Volt has 100,000 miles on the odometer, the gas engine may have only 1,000 to 10,000 miles on its' "odometer."

 

[JPWhite]

My point is that by offering the same non-warranty on the new batteries Nissan signals that they lack confidence that they are appreciably better than the old ones.

It may not be the case or their intention to communicate the lizard battery is no better, but I agree with you, that's the way I read it as well.

Had Nissan come and said, hey from 2016 onwards we are offering a 8 year/100,000 mile capacity warranty for all our EV's. Great!! But by making no change to the capacity warranty for the S model it does signal they are not confident in the 24kWh battery durability.

Some of the blogs and news outlets 'explain this' by saying the 30kWh battery does fewer cycles for the same distance driven. I agree that's true and it also follows from that the 24kWh capacity battery is too small to support typical driving habits. It's commonplace for cars to exceed 100,000 miles in their lifetime without a major overhaul. The 24kWh LEAF doesn't measure up.

More costly to buy. OK.
Range Limited. OK.
Life Limited. NOT OK.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I understand we would all like the LEAF to be upgradeable.
But it has been clear from early on Nissan would not do that.

It took them two years to recognize there was no other sane choice but to sell a replacement battery pack (with exchange).

They still fail to recognize the only sane choice was a pro-rated capacity warranty that backed up their original capacity degradation projections.

And you think they will magically see the light and offer the 30 kWh pack as an upgrade path on early adopter pre-2016 LEAFs :?:

This. Perhaps some of the early LEAF owners seem cynical to the newcomers, but we've had a long time to observe Nissan's actions with regard to the first LEAF models. I'd be astounded if Nissan changed course and made the 30 kWh battery packs available for older LEAFs. I've been puzzled by those who expected it to happen.