"Your Leaf Is Dirty" compared to Natural Gas, says Edmunds

Compared to the Honda Civix GX (natural gas), the Leat is dirtier:
http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/02/cng-honda-civic-tops-nissan-leaf-in-annual-green-car-rating-book.html
Although both get a "54" score - and with no explanation, Edmunds states the natural gas Civic is cleaner than an all electric car. Is this because nationally, 1/2 of the nation's electricity comes from coal? Doesn't that discount that the Leaf currently is sold in WAY LESS than "1/2 of the nations's states" and not necessarily major coal using states ??. Don't know. But if Edmunds is making claims based on "average" electricity manufacturing sources - why wouldn't they consider where the Leaf is sold ... or consider Leaf owners being more likely to be using PV solar? And what about the "dirty coal" of electricity to mine/refine/compress the natural gas? Oh.... there I go again - thinking.

Darned right...you just did more thinking than the article writers.

My CA LEAF is powered by clean atomic energy :lol: No CO2.

FRACKING = cleaner

and cleaner than solar?
Regardless it is
ridiculous.

This Feb report was discussed extensively earlier.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2802

BTW, it is not what Edmunds says - edmunds is just reporting what ACEEE says.

You can see a very long discussion on this also at plugincars.

http://www.plugincars.com/chevy-volt-barely-makes-2011-list-top-12-greenest-vehicles-106816.html

The problem that Edmonds isn't even aware of is that they don't know how many LEAF owners are using PV to charge their vehicles. Last I looked it was about 45% of people on this forum are using PV. Also, if they only compare with coal, they would come up with a balance at about 50 mpg in comparison with an ICE. All other forms of electrical generation would surpass that.

Also, remember the old adage, "Follow the money". From whom do you think Edmonds makes more money, ICE vehicles or EVs? It's just an indication of the ethics of the company involved.

Not to mention, in my area my utility only gets about 14% from coal. The vast majority is from natural gas mixed with various renewables and hydro. You just can't make blanket assumptions like that... :lol:

ERG4ALL said:

Last I looked it was about 45% of people on this forum are using PV.

Click to expand...

My utility, SDG&E, gets 13% of its power from renewable sources and 18% from nuclear for a total of 31% from non-CO2 generating sources. 62% comes from natural gas, and only 7% comes from coal. http://www.sdge.com/documents/billinserts/regulatory/FINAL092610_PowerLabel.pdf

Adding energy usage of our Leaf, I estimate our current solar panels will provide 72% of our total usage. So my driving is 76% renewable, 5% nuclear, 17% natural gas, and 2% coal.

I have driven CNG powered vehicles for many years now, and the lack of power, need to replace wiring, and general maintenance costs are ridiculous. Factor that in and the LEAF will win out easily. I have been unable to go up a steep grade in a CNG vehicle due to this degradation of the electric system that comes with this "cleaner" technology. I know my LEAF won't have that issue ever, and is cleaner besides!

I have used CNG since '98 and it all depends on the quality of the fuel you use as to how clean the exhaust is. I used Trillium almost exclusively with my converted Celica, and when it came time for emissions testing, the cng part failed because there was too much HC. I came to find out that it was the 'dirty' fuel that had oil from the compressors going into my tank and fuel lines that caused the high numbers. My gasoline engine actually tested cleaner. However, with my Honda GX, I found a supplier that was 99.9% pure methane that I used most of the time and it had super clean emissions. When I mixed a 20% H2 with the cng, it was really close to MINUS emissions. Then, one day I realized I couldn't make it to that station, so I thought just one time wouldn't hurt to use a different Trillium station which was close, and on the way home, it began to misfire. I didn't realize at the time how much different the tolerances are on a GX vs. my Celica conversion. After spending over $2K for repairs and a couple years, I finally got it back to running smoothly again just before I sold it. So Edmunds is full of crap.

Had no idea that CNG had the same issues as gasoline! I've seen CNG vehicles only in commercial fleets out this way (ComEd and of course Nicor, the gas company) so they must of course fuel these with the cleanest CNG possible to avoid the issues you mention (no 'consumer' or retail infrastructure out here in midwest). Honda has never even offered its CNG in Chicago but had heard that they may ramp it up a bit more -- not sure what markets but it sounds as always, be sure you know the quality of the fuel you're putting in it just like regular old gasoline. The difference being (other than someone putting sugar or water in your tank in an ICE) the CNG is much more sensitive to poorer grade fuel even just a tank full requiring a lot more to 'fix' it. When I drove a New Beetle TDI, they had warnings over using anything over B5 but we knew it was mostly due to be sure you had a clean fuel filter as the bio fuel would literally clean out any deposits leaving them in the filter (we had a local oil company that 'brewed' its own B20, very high grade and convenient). At least there is no fuel 'quality' issue with EV's; other than the concern over what its 'source' is for the overall environmental concerns.

LEAFfan said:

So Edmunds is full of crap.

Click to expand...

Interesting story - but you didn't read what I wrote earlier.

BTW, it is not what Edmunds says - edmunds is just reporting what ACEEE says.

BTW, it is not what Edmunds says - edmunds is just reporting what ACEEE says.

You can see a very long discussion on this also at plugincars.

http://www.plugincars.com/chevy-volt-barely-makes-2011-list-top-12-greenest-vehicles-106816.html

Click to expand...

I though eastern LEAFs were being powered by "Clean Coal".

Seattle City Light gets 98% of their power from non-carbon sources, mostly hydro. Seattle Leaf's are the cleanest in the county.

Hydro 91.2%
Nuclear 4.4%
Wind 2.3%
Coal 1.4%
Natural Gas 0.6%
Biomass 0.

Oddly, Puget Sound Energy, in nearby counties is 62% coal and natural gas!

Leaf owners with solar panels really are zero emission!

One thing we can be sure of is that the CNG car will run on 100% CNG in 5,10,15+ years from now (assuming it's still running). The Leaf's national average energy mix will hopefully get greener every year!

Bill

PSE and SCL both have green up programs allowing up to 100% renewable.

http://www.seattle.gov/light/Green/greenPower/greenuppr.asp
Seattle City Lights Green Up Program (sources):

Biomass 13% Washington and Idaho
Geothermal 83% Idaho
Small Hydro 4% Idaho

SCL doesn't even consider large hydro in it's renewable program because of environmental impacts.

Some 800 utilities across the country are said to offer similar programs for a nominal fee but you usually have to ask to find out about the programs... please folks, ask your utility wherever you are about participating in "green up" style programs! I would guess that a large percent of Leaf owners will be willing to pay the 10% extra it costs to generate their electricity from non carbon/nuclear sources even if they are not ready to go PV on their home.

g

SteveInSeattle said:

Seattle City Light gets 98% of their power from non-carbon sources, mostly hydro. Seattle Leaf's are the cleanest in the county.

Hydro 91.2%
Nuclear 4.4%
Wind 2.3%
Coal 1.4%
Natural Gas 0.6%
Biomass 0.

Oddly, Puget Sound Energy, in nearby counties is 62% coal and natural gas!

Leaf owners with solar panels really are zero emission!

Click to expand...

At home I typically use all "green" electrons, from the big "Mr Fusion" power station in the sky.

Occasionally when out in public places (similar to using public bathrooms), I have to use the brown (methane), tan (wind), blue (hydro), black (coal), or yellow (nuclear) electrons.

So far, my trusty EVSE charging-cord "sanitizer" module seems to be filtering out any really harmful (purple and red) electrons. :lol:

"My Leaf" is powered by west Texas wind!

My Leaf will be powered by 100% clean electricity - 60% hydro, 40% wind.
It is absurd to assume that anyone who buys a Leaf will not be seeking out cleaner electricity options. Many Utilities now offer "green" options that are only a penny or two more per KWH. We've had this option for years.

Color me absurd...

charlie1300 said:

It is absurd to assume that anyone who buys a Leaf will not be seeking out cleaner electricity options.

Click to expand...

Greenhouse gasses associated with EVs will come down in the future. For example, California, and other states, are moving towards a requirement for 30% renewable energy content. I think its going to happen because the average citizens are increasingly coming onboard with this idea and the technology is there now. In contrast, greenhouse gases associated with natural gas powered vehicle will not change. This fact makes me believe the future is with EVs not natural gas vehicles.