Cor
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:17 am

I just now saw the *highest* reading of capacity that I ever saw on a 24kWh pack.
I had tried to buy a recent battery from my favorite dismantler for some time now
and finally I decided to go to a different dismantler and lo and behold, they had a Leaf pack.
Not from a recent Leaf (I had been trying to buy a pack from a low mileage 2015) but the best they had was a pack
from a 2013 Leaf that was from Washington State, so a colder area. Should still be good and probably still be a 12-bar.
I tried to negotiate price as it was quite high, but the pack was only 4 days in inventory, so no go on any reduction.
take it or leave it.
I thought about it a minute and then called back and said I would take it.
So, I picked it up yesterday and was a bit bummed that the transport of the pack had resulted in a busted connector.
After a bit of hacking, I was able to hook up 12V and CAN bus to connect the ELM327 bluetooth dongle to the pack
and power the LBC to get its readings with LeafSpy.
WHAT THE HECK! 67.36 Ah capacity!
That is impossible, how can a pack from a 2013 have higher than new capacity!
So then I finally checked the sticker on the battery and suddenly realized that what I had picked up
was a battery from a 2013 Leaf, but it was a *NEW* battery, probably warranty replacement.
Wow - I got lucky here!
I never before saw a capacity reading higher than 66 Ah on a new replacement battery, so apparently
the cells in this battery are exceptionally good!
And yes - this battery already has a new owner eager to get this swapped into his degraded Leaf, so he can again
enjoy the commute in the HOV (carpool) lane, for which he now has not enough range to make it.
Anybody else has seen capacity above 66 Ah on a 24 kWh pack?

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:38 am

Cor wrote:Anybody else has seen capacity above 66 Ah on a 24 kWh pack?


I thought this one was amazingly high: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24132&p=497598&sid=8272fe0e2310b819eeff69aebd32e3bc#p497579

But yours takes the cake.
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs]

User avatar
Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:14 am

Cor wrote:I never before saw a capacity reading higher than 66 Ah on a new replacement battery, so apparently
the cells in this battery are exceptionally good!
And yes - this battery already has a new owner eager to get this swapped into his degraded Leaf, so he can again
enjoy the commute in the HOV (carpool) lane, for which he now has not enough range to make it.
Anybody else has seen capacity above 66 Ah on a 24 kWh pack?


Cor;
My replacement started at (typical?) 66.14 Ahrs. There is one "section" 10 or so cells that consistently has had lowered voltages on the average of 30 mv (varies of course with SOC). The Ahr readings rapidly dropped to 63-64 range in the first few weeks. I actually believe these are lower quality cells that have been installed in my (new-lizard) battery pack - but that do meet Nissan's tolerances.

Is the readings that LeafSpy obtains on a new pack preset at 66.14 (at least an attempt to do so with firmware)? Does the actual calculated Ahrs fairly rapidly go to the actual value - that depends on the quality of all cells in the new pack? How does the variability in the cell voltages of a new battery affect the actual VA/Watt-hrs available with a fully charged pack? What is the variability in the charging systems (both the AC and DC systems) attempt to "fully" charge (likely not 100%)? I'd expect that the "variability" would have a minor affect on the available range compared to other factors, however.

Maybe an expert in Li battery technology/chemistry (I'm definitely not!) can add clarity to these type questions?
2012 Leaf SL; 34,000 miles. 12 bars - Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.
4000 watts Grid-tied solar. 3000 watts (level II) off-grid solar Leaf charging capable.

Cor
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:43 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:I thought this one was amazingly high: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24132&p=497598&sid=8272fe0e2310b819eeff69aebd32e3bc#p497579

As Mark already suggested, the 66.14 Ah is a "magic number" that the BMS is initialized to when new or reset.
After that, every time the pack gets used or charged the BMS measures actual available capacity by checking voltage change versus energy in/out flow and estimating the capacity of the total pack. So, in the first weeks it may change quickly if the actual capacity is different than what is in the memory of the BMS (LBC).
I am going through that now after pairing a new LBC with a degraded pack to make the car happy (the pack LBC was from a non-cold-weather vehicle, while the car expected an answer on its question if the heaters were on, so I had to swap LBC to make the car happy instead of seeing the forever blinking blue charging light, indicating that the 12V battery was being charged - indefinitely - and I was losing 1 mile per hour of range while the car was parked.

RNM
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:11 am
Delivery Date: 05 Mar 2016
Leaf Number: 012707

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:24 am

Cor wrote:I just now saw the *highest* reading of capacity that I ever saw on a 24kWh pack.

Anybody else has seen capacity above 66 Ah on a 24 kWh pack?


68.74 Ah!!!

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=424962#p424934

Cor
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:04 pm


Pretty cool!
That pack is now sitting in someone's 2012 who can now use his favorite car again to commute...

I also found out *why* this pack was as-new and seemingly unused.
I suspect that after warranty battery replacement, this 2013 Leaf never worked right
and was taken back. Why? Well, I found an assembly error in the glued-shut battery,
so it must have been a manufacturing error: one of the bolts on the bus bars of the
front right quarter pack was loose, as in: it was rattling when I touched it.
No signs of heat on the bus bar or pack, which surprised me. Not even marks from sparks
or pitting due to high DC current. But the loose contact will certainly have had high resistance,
causing the car to hesitate or act weird.
Several other bolts were at too low torque for comfort as well, a few were excessive tight.
So, it looked like someone worked on it as inexperienced with a torque wrench or had
a wrench without torque setting, I don't know. But certainly incorrect workmanship.

Anyway, yesterday and today I picked up two more batteries that already have destinations,
there is an interesting market for Leaf batteries!
Cor.

VitaminJ
Posts: 358
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:46 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 415775
Location: Morrison, CO
Contact: YouTube

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:04 am

Cor wrote:

Pretty cool!
That pack is now sitting in someone's 2012 who can now use his favorite car again to commute...

I also found out *why* this pack was as-new and seemingly unused.
I suspect that after warranty battery replacement, this 2013 Leaf never worked right
and was taken back. Why? Well, I found an assembly error in the glued-shut battery,
so it must have been a manufacturing error: one of the bolts on the bus bars of the
front right quarter pack was loose, as in: it was rattling when I touched it.
No signs of heat on the bus bar or pack, which surprised me. Not even marks from sparks
or pitting due to high DC current. But the loose contact will certainly have had high resistance,
causing the car to hesitate or act weird.
Several other bolts were at too low torque for comfort as well, a few were excessive tight.
So, it looked like someone worked on it as inexperienced with a torque wrench or had
a wrench without torque setting, I don't know. But certainly incorrect workmanship.

Anyway, yesterday and today I picked up two more batteries that already have destinations,
there is an interesting market for Leaf batteries!
Cor.

How are you doing the swaps? Are you swapping cells to the new BMS or have you been able to swap in the new BMS too without disassembling the pack?
2013 Ocean Blue SV w/ QC and LED
- +0.2 mi/kwh Aeromods
- Leaf Box
- 2lb 5Ah LiFe 12v battery

Cor
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:33 am

VitaminJ wrote:How are you doing the swaps? Are you swapping cells to the new BMS or have you been able to swap in the new BMS too without disassembling the pack?

I have done both - swapping the complete pack into someone's Leaf, then drive at 25 MPH to the downtown Nissan Dealer and they programmed the car to accept the new battery. They charged their standard minimum service charge which is $160 for this.
- and opening op both packs and swapping cells from the new into the old pack, so that the BMS stays with the car, so as soon as the swap is done, the car drives normally.
Main drawback of the second swap is that the mounting of the module stacks is obscured by the disconnect and contactor block and all wiring is installed on the module stacks, so *everything* has to be removed from the shell in order to swap modules, you cannot easily swap just the modules. In addition, typically the old pack has the 2011/2012 wiring which is electrically incompatible to the 2013+ BMS wiring, so all the wiring must be removed from the module stacks to use the new modules with the old BMS.
And the spacers in the new half pack stack have mounting bolts every 3 modules, whereas the old stacks have them every 2, so the retaining clips on the wiring even need to shift.
And the high power wiring on the new half pack stack is connected differently, the old bus bars on the new stack will hit two bolts and so it needs to be modified to avoid wearing through and causing a short circuit.
It is all easily possible and I have done this a couple times now, but you need to be a bit creative to get a good solution.
Or pay the dealer to program the new battery to your car...
(The dealer wants to have the registered owner of the car present to avoid helping install a stolen battery, which is logical as that was the whole point of registering the battery to the car)

VitaminJ
Posts: 358
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:46 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 415775
Location: Morrison, CO
Contact: YouTube

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:03 am

Great info, thank you! You are the first person I have heard of that was able to get Nissan to reprogram the car to accept the BMS. If I read correctly, you can do the complete battery swap and the car will drive, but only 25mph. Is that correct? Also will the 2013+ complete battery module bolt into a 2011/12 car?
2013 Ocean Blue SV w/ QC and LED
- +0.2 mi/kwh Aeromods
- Leaf Box
- 2lb 5Ah LiFe 12v battery

Valdemar
Posts: 2403
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:07 am

Cor wrote:
VitaminJ wrote:How are you doing the swaps? Are you swapping cells to the new BMS or have you been able to swap in the new BMS too without disassembling the pack?

I have done both - swapping the complete pack into someone's Leaf, then drive at 25 MPH to the downtown Nissan Dealer and they programmed the car to accept the new battery. They charged their standard minimum service charge which is $160 for this.


Do you know if any 2013+ 24kWh battery can be installed in a 11/12 Leaf with a dealer reprogramming (with the necessary adapters) or only the ones that were originally fitted into 11/12 cars as warranty replacements? Which was it in your case?
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

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