GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:48 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:That's nice, but then that's not Toyota talking about definite timescales based on their own developments, unlike the case here.
Right. Definite timescales. Got it. 12 years ago their timescales for fuel-cell vehicle development were "not definite" and incredibly overly-optimistic. But today, their timescales are "definite" and "very conservative".

Meanwhile, all along the way, Toyota completely missed the train on BEVs, including today. I have detailed the many reasons their plan is doomed to fail. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

Sorry, but Toyota has lost all credibility in this arena. So far they've chosen to game CARB for the sole purpose of selling more gasoline powered vehicles. The longer they cling to that goal, the farther they will fall from grace.

Why Reg, I'm shocked, shocked at this reversal of your position - no one would ever have guessed from anything you've written before that you didn't support continued development and deployment of FCEVs and H2 stations, and didn't feel that Toyota and the other companies working in this area were on the right track :lol:

BTW, I wasn't aware that CARB had any jurisdiction in Denmark, Germany, Norway, the UK, Japan, China or South Korea, so that's some powerful gaming.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:02 am

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:Via GCC: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/01/201801-cec.html


I need to check for these specific stations, but most of the grants now being awarded are for stations with 300 kg+ of H2 storage and two dispensers.

That is my memory as well.

300 kg is around 75 fill-ups in the Mirai. What is involved in replenishing the tank ?

I'd put it at fewer than that, once the infrastructure is dense enough to provide piece of mind, i.e. running down to say .5 kg remaining out of 5 kg, instead of people being more cautious owing to the possibility of needing to go further if their local station is U/S.

Re the bold, I don't understand what you're asking for here. Can you clarify?

I'm asking how more hydrogen is supplied.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 9519
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:22 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:That is my memory as well.

300 kg is around 75 fill-ups in the Mirai. What is involved in replenishing the tank ?

I'd put it at fewer than that, once the infrastructure is dense enough to provide piece of mind, i.e. running down to say .5 kg remaining out of 5 kg, instead of people being more cautious owing to the possibility of needing to go further if their local station is U/S.

Re the bold, I don't understand what you're asking for here. Can you clarify?

I'm asking how more hydrogen is supplied.

I'd have to dig into it, but at least some of the stations in this round are 100% renewable. I think some are biomass, and the others are on-site electrolysis. The rest are the usual 33% renewable, with the rest presumably SMR. First Element said a while back that they were going to drop gaseous delivery and go over to liquid delivery and IIRR storage. I'm not sure which way Shell's going with theirs, but IIRR 300+ kg. exceeds the capacity of a single gaseous H2 trailer. I don't think any of the ones mentioned are supplied by pipeline. Was that what you wanted?
I've looked at the CEC website, but they haven't posted this award yet. These are additional sites to the ones awarded last year.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:41 am

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:I'd put it at fewer than that, once the infrastructure is dense enough to provide piece of mind, i.e. running down to say .5 kg remaining out of 5 kg, instead of people being more cautious owing to the possibility of needing to go further if their local station is U/S.

Re the bold, I don't understand what you're asking for here. Can you clarify?

I'm asking how more hydrogen is supplied.

I'd have to dig into it, but at least some of the stations in this round are 100% renewable. I think some are biomass, and the others are on-site electrolysis. The rest are the usual 33% renewable, with the rest presumably SMR. First Element said a while back that they were going to drop gaseous delivery and go over to liquid delivery and IIRR storage. I'm not sure which way Shell's going with theirs, but IIRR 300+ kg. exceeds the capacity of a single gaseous H2 trailer. I don't think any of the ones mentioned are supplied by pipeline. Was that what you wanted?
I've looked at the CEC website, but they haven't posted this award yet. These are additional sites to the ones awarded last year.

Yes, thanks.

I was wondering if the H2 was trucked in, and if so from where
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 9519
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:34 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:I'm asking how more hydrogen is supplied.

I'd have to dig into it, but at least some of the stations in this round are 100% renewable. I think some are biomass, and the others are on-site electrolysis. The rest are the usual 33% renewable, with the rest presumably SMR. First Element said a while back that they were going to drop gaseous delivery and go over to liquid delivery and IIRR storage. I'm not sure which way Shell's going with theirs, but IIRR 300+ kg. exceeds the capacity of a single gaseous H2 trailer. I don't think any of the ones mentioned are supplied by pipeline. Was that what you wanted?
I've looked at the CEC website, but they haven't posted this award yet. These are additional sites to the ones awarded last year.

Yes, thanks.

I was wondering if the H2 was trucked in, and if so from where

I still can't find anything about this latest award on the CEC website other than the revised notice from last November, which gives the locations and proposed grants for the 5 additional stations: http://www.energy.ca.gov/contracts/GFO-15-605_NOPA_Rev_11-17.pdf

We may have to wait until the annual report for more details, but judging by the size of the awards these are likely all 300+ kg. stations.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9519
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:45 pm

I just found this from December, am reading it now (119 pgs.) to see if it sheds any light, and will add to the post as I progress, so keep checking back:
Joint Agency Staff Report
on Assembly Bill 8: 2017
Annual Assessment of
Time and Cost Needed to
Attain 100 Hydrogen
Refueling Stations in
California
http://www.energy.ca.gov/2017publications/CEC-600-2017-011/CEC-600-2017-011.pdf

Reading the executive summary now, and found this:
Some subregions in California experience high hydrogen fuel demand already. Of the 31 open retail stations, a few require fuel deliveries two or three times a day because of high station usage. In these high usage cases, either the station is dispensing more fuel in a day than one fuel delivery truck can hold, or the demand for fuel is exceeding the storage capacity of the station.

The 2017 Annual Evaluation concludes that long-term FCEV deployment plans continue to indicate a need for larger capacity stations to be opened at a faster pace, and the current business-as-usual scenario (funding eight 300 kg/day stations per year) may allow the supply of hydrogen dispensing capacity to keep up with demand until 2021, at which point a shortfall in capacity is expected. This capacity shortfall, which could slow down FCEV deployment when the commercial ZEV market needs to expand greatly to meet environmental goals, is critical to avoid. This report presents additional analysis around this capacity shortfall issue in Chapter 5, to better understand the implications on a regional level, and provides ideas in Chapter 7 for alternative funding mechanisms that could increase the pace of station development.

Later in the report, they mention that Anaheim and Long Beach are two stations needing more than one delivery/day, of up to 100kg. There's also a new cost and timescale estimate. Assuming an increase to 10 stations/yr from IIRR 8, they figure they'll finish all 100 in 7 years, at a total cost of $201.6m or $1.6m over the original estimate, and down from the $225 million total cost estimate of the 2016 report. 65 stations are currently funded or built, costing $131.6 million, and the remaining 35 are estimated at $70m. The reduced estimate is based on the following:
The Energy Commission developed this updated business-as-usual scenario considering the findings from
stations funded under GFO-15-605. First, 12 out of 21 awarded stations under GFO-15-605 budgeted, on
average, $1.9 million or 18 percent less than the maximum available funding amount of $2.3 million. If all
stations funded in the next solicitation receive $1.9 million, then 10 stations could be funded from the $20
million annual ARFVTP allocation.


Second, the average cost per kilogram of station capacity decreased from $8,689 to $6,409 in two years.
This cost per kilogram of hydrogen capacity for stations funded under GFO-15-605 decreased with
stations that are in many cases double the size of those funded under Program Opportunity Notice (PON)-
13-607
. Comparing all previous hydrogen station grant solicitations, the stations funded under GFO-15-
605 can fuel the greatest number of FCEVs per dollar invested. This is another sign that station
development costs are decreasing.

Third, the large volume of applications to GFO-15-605 may indicate that the market for developing and
operating hydrogen stations is strong enough for the Energy Commission to incrementally lower the
maximum available funding amount per station in future solicitations to fund more stations per fiscal
year. With these findings, funding 10 stations per year should be achievable and realistic.

The maps on pages 10-11 confirm all 5 new sites are 181-360kg. so presumably 300+ kg., as are all those previously awarded under this round except Santa Nella.

Page 14:
Figure 5 shows weekly hydrogen dispensing by the main urban regions of the state in which FCEVs are being deployed. A separate category of connector/destination includes the information from the three stations – Coalinga, Santa Barbara, and Truckee – that are outside these regions. The numbers in the figure show the average dispensed hydrogen in kilograms per day in each quarter. In the third quarter of 2017, nearly 1,300 kilograms of hydrogen were dispensed a day on average. Using the average fueling quantity of 3.1 kilograms per fill observed in the same quarter in the existing network, this amount of dispensing equates to filling nearly 420 FCEVs a day. On July 19, 2017, FirstElement Fuel’s network alone sold more than 1,000 kilograms of hydrogen in one day, or enough to fill about 320 FCEVs.

The average fill size is a bit higher than my totally unscientific noting of the typical fill at the closest station to me whenever I happened to ride by, which was around 2.6 - 2.8kg., but I haven't been by for several months. Any increase in the average fill indicates that the station density and/or reliability are increasing enough to make drivers more comfortable about using more of their range between refuelings.

According to the data collected by SOSS, the current network of 31 open retail stations in California had a 92.4 percent uptime for September 2017, on average. This means that the open retail stations were available to provide fuel to customers 92.4 percent of the time in September 2017. Of these stations, FirstElement Fuel operates 18, and it had an average station uptime of 98.5 percent during the same period. Because of the quantity of the stations that FirstElement Fuel operates at high uptime, the strong performance of these stations helps build confidence in the network among FCEV drivers.

One developer awarded under the GFO-15-605 is developing stations with two dispensers and two independent compressor/cooling chains to provide redundancy to its stations in addition to the ability to provide fuel to multiple drivers at the same time. Another set of stations awarded under GFO-15-605 will offer two fueling positions, each with an independent H70 hose allowing simultaneous fueling, in addition to one H35 hose.


Page 46:
Capital Costs of Hydrogen Refueling Stations
According to the budgets for the 21 awarded stations under GFO-15-605, the equipment, design,
engineering, construction, project management, and overhead costs (“all-in costs” include match funding)
for hydrogen refueling stations with delivered gas are nearly $2.5 million for 310 kg/day stations (for
main stations), nearly $4.0 million for 360 kg/day stations (for main stations), and nearly $2.4 million for
a 180/day station (a connector station
), as summarized in Figure 17.

The 360 kg/day stations funded under GFO-15-605 provide two independent, redundant compressors,
storage systems, and dispenser systems
. This design allows FCEV drivers to refuel even if one dispenser
goes off-line, meaning the station provides redundancy and backup to itself. Although the total cost for
the 360 kg/day stations funded under GFO-15-605 is $4 million, each of these stations is analogous to two
180 kg/day stations for $2 million each, which is a savings compared to the cost of one 180 kg/day station
at $2.4 million
. The decreases in station costs are also reflected in the Energy Commission cost per
kilogram of nameplate capacity, as shown in Figure 18.


Page 49:
Renewable Hydrogen
The Energy Commission plans to release a competitive grant solicitation (GFO-17-602) to fund the
installation of a cost-effective facility in California that will produce 100 percent renewable hydrogen from
in-state renewable resources dedicated for distribution and delivery to public hydrogen refueling stations
that serve light-duty FCEVs
. Development of the solicitation included input from stakeholders received at
staff workshops held January 30, 2017, and July 31, 2017, and is targeted for new renewable hydrogen
production with a nameplate capacity of at least 1,000 kilograms per day of 100 percent renewable
hydrogen from feedstocks sourced in California. Electricity costs to operate hydrogen production systems
will comprise a significant portion of the facilities costs, which, in turn, affect the price of hydrogen
charged to FCEV drivers.


Based on the projected fueling capacity of open and planned stations, 5,500 kg/day of renewable
hydrogen will be needed by 2022. This includes the need to meet the 33.3 percent renewable content
intended by SB 1505 for the hydrogen produced for or dispensed by fueling stations that receive state
funds. Some station developers have informed Energy Commission staff that their mission is to dispense
more than the required minimum renewable hydrogen content. Higher hydrogen demand implies there
will be increasing opportunities to produce renewable hydrogen at larger scales, bringing down costs.

Most of the rest is appendices. Appendix B shows cost estimates for various sizes (180, 350, nd 600kg./day of stations experiencing slow or fast growth, and with gaseous (180) or liquid (350, 600) delivery.

Appendix D discusses fueling trends. Page D-1:
The average utilization has increased from just 8.8 percent in Q3 2016 to more than 25.4 percent in Q3
2017. Core markets were also evaluated by excluding connector station data (Coalinga, Truckee, and Santa
Barbara). In these core markets, utilization grew from 9.8 percent in Q3 2016 to 27.7 percent in Q3 2017.
This growth is a key indicator for infrastructure utilization growth and related financial performance. As
more invested capital is used, fixed operating expenses can be spread among greater numbers of
kilograms sold.

The average fueling quantity has steadily increased from 2.8 kg/fueling in Q3 2016 to 3.1 kg/fueling in Q3
2017
. This increase implies that drivers are becoming more comfortable with vehicle range and are able to
better use the available infrastructure coverage.

Max. utilisation is assumed to be 80%, which I imagine conforms to gas station practice. It appears my unscientific local station survey was fairly indicative of the average. Re H2 pricing, page D-2:
The overall price of hydrogen has increased by nearly 7 percent since Q3 2016 – increasing from
$14.93/kg to $15.92/kg. This increase is still not felt by most customers as vehicles on the road still
benefit from “free” fueling provided through auto manufacturer incentives. As such, competition among
stations has yet to materialize in terms of pulling demand from competitors by offering lower hydrogen
prices
. The density of hydrogen stations is also relatively sparse, and as such, customers would fuel at the
most convenient location rather than the one offering the most competitive price. As the density of
stations increases and customers begin to pay for fuel out of pocket, competition will increase. This price
pressure will translate throughout the supply chain for hydrogen, yielding opportunities for new producer
market entries as well as for increased volume and competition among existing producers.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9519
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:46 pm

Via GCC:
California Energy Commission approves >$2M for ops and maintenance of 16 public hydrogen refueling stations
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/02/20180222-cec.html

The California Energy Commission approved more than $2 million for operating and maintaining 16 publicly accessible existing hydrogen refueling stations statewide, from San Diego to Truckee. . . .

These are presumably the earlier ones funded under 13-607, and would be an extension of existing O&M subsidies.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9519
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:58 pm

Mountain View is open, #32 (#11 in Norcal).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9519
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:45 pm

Thousand Oaks is open, #33 (#21 in SoCal). [Added] Not sure if this is the first one, but this is the first I've noticed that shares a service island with a regular gas dispenser at a gas station.
Last edited by GRA on Tue May 01, 2018 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9519
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:27 pm

Ontario is open, #34 (#22 in SoCal). via GCC:
. . . The Ontario station provides 100% renewable hydrogen to fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV) drivers and is the first station in Southern California to provide all major alternative transportation fuels; it also offers biofuel, CNG, and plug-in electric charging. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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