2013 Low Battery Capacity AHr Battery Degradation

[Leafitornot]

From what I recall, all cars were manufactured between March and July 2013. I didn't think there was any correlation between month and SOH.

 

[Valdemar]

From what I recall, all cars were manufactured between March and July 2013. I didn't think there was any correlation between month and SOH.

If the last 2 were manufactured later than the rest it would make happy the ones promoting the idea that later 2013 production runs were getting a revised battery pack that had a larger top buffer.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I presume not many people are aware of the 2013 U.K Taxi with 102,000 miles and lost only 10% ? the title says 12% loss but it shows 10% ? .

http://insideevs.com/100000-mile-nissan-leaf-taxi-shows-12-5-battery-degradation/

Now look at an Irish 2012 Leaf that lost 11% after 62,000 Miles and only 458 quick charges on the 2012 Irish Leaf V 1,788 on the 2013 U.K Leaf.

If you look near the end of the blog he posts the leaf spy data there somewhere.

https://selfficiency.wordpress.com/automotive/nissan-leaf-diary/#comment-1216

Both climates are not hot particularly the Irish climate.

So I think this only proves there was a change to the battery chemistry in July built Leafs . I think this is a fantastic achievement for Nissan on a small battery that's cycled so much with so many Quick charges.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I've been considering the purchase of a 2013 Nissan Leaf (posted a thread in the buying/leasing forum) and have checked out a few Leafs in Georgia over the last 2 days. Perhaps this info from Leaf Spy Lite will be useful. All cars tested were 2013 models.

Model, mileage, SOH, AHr, voltage?, Hx, QC/L1,L2

SV: 16k, 90%, 59.29, 377.08V, 90.41%, 0/852
SV: 10k, 91%, 59.61, 395.54V, 91.04%, 0/368
SV: 16k, 90%, 58.97, 361.70V, 89.77%, 42/562
SV: 24k, 88%, 57.60, 386.51V, 86.79%, 1/1076
S: 22k, 90%, 59.15, 396.32V, 90.14%, 1/1168
SL: 19k, 88%, 57.83, 394.16V, 87.28%, 26/515
S: 18k 98%, 64.11, 393.96V, 98.31%, 1/652
SL: 18k, 100%, 67.08, 369.02V, 103.15%, 2/1231

Based on the available carfaxes, most of the cars were driven in Georgia. It appears that 90% SOH should be pretty much the norm for a 2013 Leaf. From what I recall the SL that returned a 100% SOH value was not driven in Georgia...perhaps from a colder climate. I was not able to find out where the 98% SOH model S was driven.

Maybe someone can explain the Leaf Spy Lite bar chart to me...some were almost all red, others all blue, and some a mix of red/blue. The voltage read (eg 377.08V) is also a mystery to me.

for the 2013 MY, its VITAL you post the build date as well. more than a bit of anecdotal evidence that there were chemistry changes in later 2013 builds beyond the growing pains of a new factory start up

 

[Leafitornot]

Added to my list and amended with manufacturer date and state of ownership. It would be great if other 2013 owners would post their current same specs and we can keep a running list.

Based on my limited data, there appears to be zero correlation between battery life and month of manufacture in 2013. However, I have not yet checked out any late 2013 Leafs. The two high SOH SLs were both from the same dealer and appear to have been driven in a cooler climate - Michigan and/or Illinois - both of these cars were manufactured in early 2013.

Model, mileage, date of manufacture, state of ownership, SOH, AHr, voltage?, Hx, QC/L1,L2

SV: 16k, 6/28, GA, 90%, 59.29, 377.08V, 90.41%, 0/852
SV: 10k, 6/27, GA, 91%, 59.61, 395.54V, 91.04%, 0/368
SV: 16k, 4/9 CA, 90%, 58.97, 361.70V, 89.77%, 42/562
SV: 24k, 5/24, GA, 88%, 57.60, 386.51V, 86.79%, 1/1076
S: 22k, 6/13, GA, 90%, 59.15, 396.32V, 90.14%, 1/1168
SL: 19k, 4/26, GA,88%, 57.83, 394.16V, 87.28%, 26/515
S: 18k, 6/26, GA, 98%, 64.11, 393.96V, 98.31%, 1/652
SL: 18k, 3/7 MI/IL 100%, 67.08, 369.02V, 103.15%, 2/1231
SL: 17k, 2/23, MI/IL 99%, 65.08, 387.03V, 99.41%, 2/1207
S: 28k, 6/13, GA, 89%, 58.70, 389.90V, 89.17%, 4/613
S: 28k, 7/13, GA, 93%, 61.15, 375.98V, 94.10%, 0/408

 

[edatoakrun]

...more than a bit of anecdotal evidence that there were chemistry changes in later 2013 builds beyond the growing pains of a new factory start up

There is no evidence that there has been any significant improvement in LEAF battery degradation since 2011.

The average static capacity for 2013 LEAF packs tested by the AVTA was higher, ~24.2 kWh as compared to the 2012 Average of ~23.4 kWh, but I think It is fair to say that the 2013 packs (given the different test parameters) are losing capacity at similar rates to the 2012s.

Links to the test results are posted this thread:

AVTA capacity/range/efficiency tests of four 2013 LEAFs

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18555

There is overwhelming evidence that Nissan has altered the LBC reports of capacity and degradation, perhaps more times than the one time Nissan stated they would (see video below) since 2011.

Which is why it is extremely foolish, IMO, to rely on the LBC reports to determine the present available battery capacity, the loss of capacity from delivery, or the capacity deficit from Nissan's 24 kWh specified for all 2011-15 packs, for any LEAF, from any Model Year.

Forgotten (by me) comments by Andy Palmer on this video from 10/12 posted recently on a other thread may help answer the questions I asked below (page 4) re both real battery improvements from 2011 to 2013 MY, and how the 2011-12 LEAF's dash capacity bar "pessimistic gauge" (gid report) error has been changed in 2013- on LEAFs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1tfX7fRWPI

~ 5 minutes :

"...the reality is that that meter (2011-12 dash capacity bars) reads pessimistically..."

~11 to 12 minutes:

(only) "...small improvements... (made in the 2013 battery)...evolution, not revolution...but gauge accuracy is addressed..."

It's certainly possible that 2013's do have accurate LBC reports (neither optimistic or pessimistic) but I suggest any 2013-on LEAF owner check their battery capacity for themselves, rather than rely on the LBC (gid) report, just as should 2011-12 LEAF owners.

If you remain complacent about your capacity loss, due to your relatively high gid/capacity bar retention, you may just be repeating the mistakes of 2011-12 LEAF owners, whose "pessimistic" gid readings/capacity bar losses drove some of them to hysteria.

BTW, my estimate for my 2011 is that actual loss of capacity from delivery in mid-May 2011, after driving for ~four years and ~36,000 miles in a warm climate, was probably ~12.5% (from ~23.4 initial static kWh) while my LBC reported gid loss at the same date of ~23%.

I suggest, again, that anyone trying to monitor the actual battery capacity loss, of any LEAF from any MY, DO NOT rely on the LBC.

It is becoming clear that either there was a dramatic improvement in battery design ~with the 2013 MY, or (far more likely, IMO) the LBC was simply altered to report higher gids, and fewer capacity bar losses.

I wonder how long after (or before?) Andy Palmer was harangued by irate-gid-meter-wielding-LEAF-drivers in Phoenix in 2012, that the changes were made?

Given the performance noted below, You have to wonder if the Pessimistic Gauges, may now be overly optimistic...

Busy Wizzy Hits 100,000 Mile Landmark

The Nissan LEAF that sparked an electric taxi revolution in Cornwall has clocked up its 100,000th mile without losing a single bar of battery life*...

http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=132843"

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18269&start=90

 

[Firetruck41]

Just bought my 2013 Leaf about 2 weeks ago. It has 12 bars, and probably sat on the lot with a full charge since April 2015. It had 90% SOH the day I brought it home from the dealer, with 241 GID, IIRC.

Now, as of 8/29/15:

Build date 4/2013
38,365 miles
SOH 85%
GID 236
HX 81.85%
AHr 55.93
394.58v
279 QC, 1022 L1/L2

Seems to be dropping precipitously in two weeks, from SOH 90% down to 85%, still with 12 capacity bars...

 

[RegGuheert]

Seems to be dropping precipitously in two weeks, from SOH 90% down to 85%, still with 12 capacity bars...

I agree that is a fast drop. Likely the degradation happened while it was sitting on the dealer's lot in the heat at full charge, but the BMS cannot determine the capacity except when the battery is cycled. Hopefully it will not drop too much farther.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Just bought my 2013 Leaf about 2 weeks ago. It has 12 bars, and probably sat on the lot with a full charge since April 2015. It had 90% SOH the day I brought it home from the dealer, with 241 GID, IIRC.

Now, as of 8/29/15:

Build date 4/2013
38,365 miles
SOH 85%
GID 236
HX 81.85%
AHr 55.93
394.58v
279 QC, 1022 L1/L2

Seems to be dropping precipitously in two weeks, from SOH 90% down to 85%, still with 12 capacity bars...

none of your stats indicates a 10% loss. GIDs 236; 17% down. ahr; 17% down, etc. what were these readings when you got it?

 

[Firetruck41]

Just bought my 2013 Leaf about 2 weeks ago. It has 12 bars, and probably sat on the lot with a full charge since April 2015. It had 90% SOH the day I brought it home from the dealer, with 241 GID, IIRC.

Now, as of 8/29/15:

Build date 4/2013
38,365 miles
SOH 85%
GID 236
HX 81.85%
AHr 55.93
394.58v
279 QC, 1022 L1/L2

Seems to be dropping precipitously in two weeks, from SOH 90% down to 85%, still with 12 capacity bars...

none of your stats indicates a 10% loss. GIDs 236; 17% down. ahr; 17% down, etc. what were these readings when you got it?

I did not save the data from the first day I had it, so IIRC, 90% SOH, 59.xx AHr, 241 GID, I think the Hx was mid to high 80s. Thats all I can recall. Oh yeah, per the carfax, it was originally sold new in 9/2013.

On the bright side, if it continues this way, I will be eligible for a new battery before the warranty runs out.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I did not save the data from the first day I had it, so IIRC, 90% SOH, 59.xx AHr, 241 GID, I think the Hx was mid to high 80s. Thats all I can recall. Oh yeah, per the carfax, it was originally sold new in 9/2013.

On the bright side, if it continues this way, I will be eligible for a new battery before the warranty runs out.

i think you b fine. I would not take any quick movements to heart. Mine have bounced around all over the place simply based on how much I drive it. I do not have a regular commute so I could drive as little as 100 miles or as much as 500 in a week

 

[Firetruck41]

Thanks!

 

[lowspeed]

can someone explain these numbers?

 

[ttweed]

can someone explain these numbers?

These numbers are taken from the Leaf Spy app, which was developed by a MNL member to reveal the data that is passed on the CAN buss to the OBDII port on the car. Do a search for the app and you will find a lot of information about it. There is a 60 page thread here discussing the data: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12789 There is a 132-page thread discussing the app: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285 There is a "manual" of sorts on the EV wiki here:
http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Leaf_Spy_Pro

I have recently purchased a 2013 Leaf S myself that exhibited the same sort of symptoms as Firetruck41. It is a Nov. 2013 build, and came off a 2-year lease in GA. The day I bought it, it showed 61.97 AHr capacity or about 93%. Within 7 days, it had dropped to 58.77 AHr. losing almost 4% capacity in a week, according to Leaf Spy Pro. In the next 5 days, it climbed back slightly to 59.10 AHrs, and then has dropped back down to 59 in the last 3 days. I find this baffling, as in the 2 years I kept data on my 2011, I never saw a loss of more than 1.25% in a week, even in the hottest weather. Either something is really different about the 2013 batteries, or the LSP app data is not reporting it correctly. I had one paranoid moment where I wondered if Nissan was resetting the BMS when these cars come off lease so that they show 12 bars of inflated capacity until after they are sold at auction. They are bringing a shitload of these 2013s into CA from other states on a weekly basis as they can get more for them here. If they are doing something like that, it would be the equivalent of rolling back the odometer on an ICE car, but since there is no law against resetting a BMS system in an EV, they could get away with it. :evil:

TT

 

[stjohnh]

This thread, and others, show that the numbers reported by the Leaf Spy App jump around a lot for the 2013 Leafs, reasons aren't clear, but presumably has to do with Nissan programming how the computer reports these numbers. I don't for a second believe the battery itself has these rapid changes.

We have 2 Leafs, bought new in June 2013 and have LeafSpy data on both starting a month or so after purchase. Mine (the S) seems to have lost about 4-5 mi range since new. Not sure about my wife's SV.

LeafSpy data that correspond most closely to the observed range loss is the average capacity and the average State of Health of the previous 3 measurements (taken at least a week apart).

For my S, now 2yrs and 3 mo old, these have dropped from 60.5/91 in July 2013 to 59/89.5 (Av Capac/Av SOH) in June-Sept 2015. The max/min of the capacity in over 2 years is 64/58.25 and 95/88 for SOH. There does not appear any correlation of the maximum or minimum with age of car and there have not been any QCs (no QC possible on my car). Av Capacity loss (60.5AHr->59=2.5%) and Av SOH loss (91->89.5= 2.7%) agree fairly well with observed range loss (4-5 miles loss from my 94 mi range at 60mph when new=4-5%) Reproducible range measurement is difficult, and I consider this to be within expected error.

My wife's SV started with an Av Cap of 60.5 and Av SOH of 93. Now Av Cap is 60.1 and Av SOH is 92. I don't drive it much so don't know about possible range loss.

The bar loss wiki, the most comprehensive information on battery degradation that I know of, shows only five MY2013 Leafs with one bar lost, none with 2 or more bars. Considering the number of 2011 and 2012 Leafs that had multiple bars lost by 2 years, and that sales of 2013 Leafs were much more than 2011 and 2012 Leafs, I think it is pretty clear that the batteries of the 2013 Leafs are indeed less prone to temperature degradation than those of earlier years.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

A Washingtonian just made a road trip that included some QCs and his ahr jumped from 60ish to the low 65's. I personally think (which means I have no proof) that the BMS is adaptive to the user's needs meaning when it senses the user is needing more range, it adjusts the charging parameters using a flexible portion of the pack that is not normally charged at the top end.

This is done to help preserve longevity of the pack when the extra range is not needed. As far as manipulating the stats? It is something I have done several times along with the hundreds of reports of others observing the same thing. Now some seem to think it does not boost the range (IOW, the numbers are falsely optimistic) while others claim they are getting a few more miles. I am in the latter group which is a good thing since I logged 8 trips over 100 miles and 31 over 93 miles THIS past Summer alone all done by charging only at home.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Yes I and others here with 2013+ have noticed AH goes up with more DC charging.

 

[XeonPony]

Mine has held pretty steady at 65.5Ah , It floats there abouts.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Mine has held pretty steady at 65.5Ah , It floats there abouts.

That's good to know, mine is sitting around that now but will go up to nearly 66 if I use the DC charger a few times. (I meant 66.6 Ah)

 

[XeonPony]

interesting.

I', at 38,000 K 2 years old and still ruffly at that figure. Only last few months I hade leaf spy to see it.