2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

[LeftieBiker]

"Nominal" when used to describe battery voltage often means the opposite of what it would seem to imply: the lowest voltage a battery produces before damage occurs. OTOH, and confusingly, it can also describe the voltage at roughly 50% SOC. Thus my "48 volt" bicycles' batteries actually produce about 53 volts when fully charged and about 42 volts when about to die, while "12 volt" car batteries actually run at closer to 13 volts charged, and 12 volts when almost fully drained.

 

[goldbrick]

And just to prevent any mis-understanding....I'm not advocating trying to calculate the exact battery capacity on a daily basis.

I personally use 1% / mile for my 30kWh Leaf and then adjust that depending on outside temperature, battery temperature, route and conditions, etc. It is close enough for me.

I am only saying that if you really care about GID's and the absolute, true capacity of your battery it is not a simple matter to determine.

 

[lorenfb]

Lorenfb


Between the 20-7 and 2018 model years with the remake, the Leaf had received some small efficiency improvements(inverter,suspension,small aero changes,etc..) My comparison wasn’t the 2018 leaf to 2019+ leaf it was a 2013 leaf vs 2019+ leaf.

The build date for my leaf is scheduled for May, so will report in a few months, once I get the car on stable 55mph efficiency as I can get it recorded.

But between 2013 and 2019 it is close to 500 pounds, so a lot to overcome mass wise.

Thanks for the reply. Do you have a link that describes the specific efficiency improvements? The 2013 Leaf's PM motor
was about 97-98 efficient, right? And the Leaf's motor controller (inverter) approached that level of efficiency. Unless Nissan
has designed-in better power switching semiconductors, not much could be gained there.

 

[lorenfb]

The capacity of the battery can't be calculated by just multiplying the voltage at 'full' times the Ah at 'full' since the voltage will drop as the Ah are used. It takes a bit of calculus to measure the area of the discharge VA curve to find the true battery capacity.

Right, if you're "into" measuring every microvolt change of each cell at every point in time. And "it takes a bit of calculus
to measure the area", oh please! How much measurement precision is really necessary for the average Leaf owner,
especially given the battery degradation of the Leaf over time? Remember, the battery's voltage doesn't change by
more than 5-10% over the usable range.  

I agree.
I use 360 Volts * Ahr. Accuracy within a couple percent is fine for my purposes.

I think manufacturers use 360 Volts as "nominal" of Li-x batteries. I don't understand what nominal means, but as an average voltage over the operating range it would make sense.

Thanks for your insight.

 

[SageBrush]

Thanks for your insight.

Very little insight from me, but some googling found the definition of 'nominal':
It is the cell voltage when 50% of the energy has been discharged. If cells are in a series arrangement then the nominal pack voltage is the nominal voltage of the cell * the number of cells in series.

So if we say that the nominal voltage of an EV pack is 360 volts and the pack is 96S then the cell nominal voltage is 360/96 = 3.75 volts. My pack currently reads about 3.9 volts at a SoC of 50% by LeafSpy, so a nominal rating would be ~ 375 volts. I don't know how to explain the higher value. Perhaps I'll reach manufacturer 'nominal' as the pack ages :roll:

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snva533/snva533.pdf

A cell is an electro-chemical device capable of supplying the energy that results from an internal chemical reaction to an external electric circuit. ... The MPV (mid-point voltage) is the nominal voltage of the cell, and is the voltage that is measured when the battery has discharged 50% of its total energy.

 

[lorenfb]

Thanks for your insight.

Very little insight from me, but some googling found the definition of 'nominal':
It is the cell voltage when 50% of the energy has been discharged. If cells are in a series arrangement then the nominal pack voltage is the nominal voltage of the cell * the number of cells in series.

So if we say that the nominal voltage of an EV pack is 360 volts and the pack is 96S then the cell nominal voltage is 360/96 = 3.75 volts. My pack currently reads about 3.9 volts at a SoC of 50% by LeafSpy, so a nominal rating would be ~ 375 volts. I don't know how to explain the higher value. Perhaps I'll reach manufacturer 'nominal' as the pack ages :roll:

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snva533/snva533.pdf

A cell is an electro-chemical device capable of supplying the energy that results from an internal chemical reaction to an external electric circuit. ... The MPV (mid-point voltage) is the nominal voltage of the cell, and is the voltage that is measured when the battery has discharged 50% of its total energy.

Anyway, owning and driving a Leaf doesn't need to be a virtual science project!

 

[SageBrush]

Anyway, owning and driving a Leaf doesn't need to be a virtual science project!

Definitely.

Even if true that the voltage of my pack at half discharge is 375 V as calculated by Leafspy at 50% SoC and not 360 Volt as I have been using, I am only underestimating my ~ 19 kWh pack by about 3 miles of range.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

3 miles? My SOC at 360 volts is 28%. 50% is 374

 

[SageBrush]

3 miles? My SOC at 360 volts is 28%. 50% is 374

374/360 = ?

 

[BoulderLeaf]

In a Nissan marketing email that I received today titled "(my first name ) the all-new 2019 Nissan LEAF PLUS is coming soon". they mentioned "up to 226 miles of range1"

For the footnote, they said

1. Targeted EPA range for Nissan LEAF S PLUS only. Actual range will vary with trim levels, options and driving conditions. See Customer Disclosure Form for details.

This seems to lend credence to higher trims possibly having a lower EPA range rating.

Hope this isn't a repost but https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=41276&id=41277 has the EPA range rating numbers.

I haven't physically seen the Monroney sticker for any Plus Leafs since I've not seen one at a dealer or auto show yet.

No trim level specified (so by process of elimination would be S) https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=41276&id=41277 says 226 miles. SV and SL are 215 miles.

There are now some window stickers showing online and can confirm that the SV does indeed show 215 miles on the sticker.

 

[LeftieBiker]

This actually harks back to the Seventies and Eighties (and even further back) when the base, 'stripper' version of a car often got the best fuel economy. (Think Civic HF or HE.) Back then, few people were concerned that their bargain car wasn't also luxurious, or that their luxury car wasn't great on gas...

 

[BrockWI]

Is the thought it is the wheels / tires? Otherwise physically they are the same (body, battery & motor) correct?

 

[LeftieBiker]

Is the thought it is the wheels / tires? Otherwise physically they are the same (body, battery & motor) correct?

The options also add weight, like a motorized seat, sub-woofer, heat pump and Pro Pilot hardware. I'd like to see the rating of an un-optioned SV compared to an un-optioned (which I assume they used) S. I'll bet they are close to each other. (Although most of us wouldn't want an SV with no heat pump.)

 

[BoulderLeaf]

Is the thought it is the wheels / tires? Otherwise physically they are the same (body, battery & motor) correct?

The options also add weight, like a motorized seat, sub-woofer, heat pump and Pro Pilot hardware. I'd like to see the rating of an un-optioned SV compared to an un-optioned (which I assume they used) S. I'll bet they are close to each other. (Although most of us wouldn't want an SV with no heat pump.)

I found what appears to be an unoptioned SV; the sticker says "up to 215" depending on trim, options, and driving style... So maybe more (heavier) options further reduce range?

EDIT: Nope, it has the "all weather" package.

 

[jdcbomb]

Is the weight difference within the Plus trims really significant enough to result in less range for SV / SL? Wouldn't we see a similar range deficit for SV / SL non-Plus?

 

[lorenfb]

Lorenfb


Between the 20-7 and 2018 model years with the remake, the Leaf had received some small efficiency improvements(inverter,suspension,small aero changes,etc..) My comparison wasn’t the 2018 leaf to 2019+ leaf it was a 2013 leaf vs 2019+ leaf.

The build date for my leaf is scheduled for May, so will report in a few months, once I get the car on stable 55mph efficiency as I can get it recorded.

But between 2013 and 2019 it is close to 500 pounds, so a lot to overcome mass wise.

Stopped at a Nissan dealer today to review the EPA number on a 2019 40 kWh SV; 112 MPGe. Found the original window stinker
on my 2013 SL, 115 MPGe. So where's the efficiency improvement over a 2013, i.e. the 2019 probably weighs more and it's
doubtful the Cd is less? Most likely the same PM motor design & and basically the same motor controller (inverter). The ePlus
will have an even less MPGe, i.e. > battery weight. At this point in time with where BEVs are technology-wise, the MPGe number
begins to be like a "smoke & mirrors" selling point.

 

[BoulderLeaf]

Lorenfb


Between the 20-7 and 2018 model years with the remake, the Leaf had received some small efficiency improvements(inverter,suspension,small aero changes,etc..) My comparison wasn’t the 2018 leaf to 2019+ leaf it was a 2013 leaf vs 2019+ leaf.

The build date for my leaf is scheduled for May, so will report in a few months, once I get the car on stable 55mph efficiency as I can get it recorded.

But between 2013 and 2019 it is close to 500 pounds, so a lot to overcome mass wise.

Stopped at a Nissan dealer today to review the EPA number on a 2019 40 kWh SV; 112 MPGe. Found the original window stinker
on my 2013 SL, 115 MPGe. So where's the efficiency improvement over a 2013, i.e. the 2019 probably weighs more and it's
doubtful the Cd is less? Most likely the same PM motor design & and basically the same motor controller (inverter). The ePlus
will have an even less MPGe, i.e. > battery weight. At this point in time with where BEVs are technology-wise, the MPGe number
begins to be like a "smoke & mirrors" selling point.

My local dealer only has SV and SL PLUS's in stock and their MPGe is 104, whereas the 40kWh SL shows as 112 MPGe as you mentioned as well.

Also of note, my dealer now shows "Limited availability" on the 40kWh models now that the PLUS is out.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I think the epa only measures to the whole kWh per 100 miles. So the SV and S are just on either side of the number, so range difference is likely less then 11 miles.

Ok , time to start talking range maximizing.

Tires at 45 psi
Obviously gentle acceleration
Any after market aero?

 

[cwerdna]

I think the epa only measures to the whole kWh per 100 miles. So the SV and S are just on either side of the number, so range difference is likely less then 11 miles.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2019-leaf-64kwh-battery-w-thermal-management-225mi-range-100kw-fast-charge.107301/page-3#post-3368227 has a post of the UDDS AER results in miles for S Plus vs. SV/SL Plus.

I'm not sure what makes you say the bolded part.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/pdfs/EPA%20test%20procedure%20for%20EVs-PHEVs-11-14-2017.pdf has a brief description of how EVs and PHEVs are tested. It's the link from https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml. You can also look at https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

The bolder part was around the 30 lbs between S and SV causes a range change, but the additional 30 lbs between SV and SL causes no range change?

I think this is due to rounding in the measurements.

I like the Udds measurements. I hadn’t seen that before. While maybe not real world range, they are clean in terms of apples to apples.