40 kw-hr battery in 2016 leaf

[lorenfb]

Some past data I provided last year:

 

[HerdingElectrons]

The motor is actually the same in both cars. The inverter was upgraded to provide more power to the motor in the 2018+ Leaf. Since little time is spent at full throttle in either car by the typical Leaf driver, range should be about the same in typical driving.

That was the info that I was searching for but had not found. So a 40 kWh battery at full throttle in a Gen 2 Leaf will be a tad quicker of the line than a 2017 Gen 1 Leaf with the same battery but basically the same performance and current drain in day to day driving?

My understanding is the Gen1 motors output is determined by the inverter which in the Gen1's was sized for the 24kWh pack so if anything a Gen1 car will be slightly slower due to a presumably heavier 40kWh pack.

p.s.I have no idea if the output was increased when the 30kWh packs were released however.

 

[LeftieBiker]

No power increase for the 30kwh packs - they wanted to save money by leaving the car otherwise unchanged. The Leaf Plus, IIRC, still uses the same 2013+ motor, IIRC, with yet another boost in inverter output. That little motor seems to be the 318ci V-8 of EV motors.

 

[joeriv]

I mean that the Leafs from hot climates will degrade faster, while those in colder climates will degrade more slowly. Unless they used an equal number of cars from each climate (cold, temperate, hot) for each generation pack, the results will not be useful. I don't think the results were manipulated, just not useful because of this.

They don’t have to use an equal number of cars - SOH for each year should be at something like a 95% confidence level; considering that the study includes 6300 cars, I would think that most of these results have high confidence levels. It still beats “conventional wisdom” unsupported by facts.

 

[LeftieBiker]

It still beats “conventional wisdom” unsupported by facts.

If you think that the term "conventional wisdom" applies in an esoteric case like this, you overestimate the degree of interest. My observations are based on about 5 years of reports on this website and others. I don't give them as much weight as you think; it's just that the observed reports fit so well into what we believe here, and have for so long, that I'm reluctant to take one study with unknown methodology and use it instead of what people have observed in so many cases (although not 6000+) for so many years. It's as if the study were saying that Canary packs lasted as well as subsequent generations. I didn't see a link. Could you please post one here?

 

[danrjones]

They don’t have to use an equal number of cars - SOH for each year should be at something like a 95% confidence level; considering that the study includes 6300 cars, I would think that most of these results have high confidence levels. It still beats “conventional wisdom” unsupported by facts.

But you do need an equal percent of cars in similiar environments for each year. So if 2015 had 25% from hot climates but 2016 had only 5% your data is useless.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I think the point is that in general the data is more objective.

We suffer from the amazon effect in these boards. Only the 1 and 5 star users post,
So it ends up feeling bipolar in the end. The reality tends to be a bit more mellow for both Leaf and Tesla.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I think the point is that in general the data is more objective.

We suffer from the amazon effect in these boards. Only the 1 and 5 star users post,
So it ends up feeling bipolar in the end. The reality tends to be a bit more mellow for both Leaf and Tesla.

Except that we haven't seen reports of Lizard packs degrading fast in anything other than very hot climates. We've seen reports of the 30kwh packs degrading in all climates, and I don't believe that the ones that re-lost bars after the BMS patch were all in hot climates...

 

[GaleHawkins]

I think the point is that in general the data is more objective.

We suffer from the amazon effect in these boards. Only the 1 and 5 star users post,
So it ends up feeling bipolar in the end. The reality tends to be a bit more mellow for both Leaf and Tesla.

Except that we haven't seen reports of Lizard packs degrading fast in anything other than very hot climates. We've seen reports of the 30kwh packs degrading in all climates, and I don't believe that the ones that re-lost bars after the BMS patch were all in hot climates...

From records our 2016 Leaf SL looked like it went straight from TN to a dealership (May 2016) in St. Louis MO sand was in the area for a 3 year lease that started Sept 2016. If it was charged when unloaded and topped off due to test drives, etc it would have seen some 95F temps that summer. It was in trouble in 2018 I expect because of low range complaint and the BMS was updated that year. In Oct 2019 it was showing 9/12 SOH bars and a range of 60 miles at 55 MPH. The next month it dropped the 4th bar with SOH of 63%. When I bought it I did not know the BMS update had been ran. Hopefully Nissan will get the 40 kWa battery soon.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The above would not have been the case with a Lizard pack. That would probably have lost a bar, maybe two. But four? No.

 

[brunohill]

What is a hot climate ? What is a cold climate? How many days of the year or hours of the day at what temperature? What was the state of charge and for how long at what temperature? Does the car get driven hard or not. Low speed or high speed . What charging rate and at what temperature? Does it travel on flat roads or up hill and down hill head winds or tailwinds? The list goes on and on. I think the only reliable data for comparison can be from laboratory tests. All (Li) batteries degrade faster at higher voltages and higher temperatures. Is a heat sensitive liquid cooled battery stored at 45'C (113 F) for days not being used (no cooling on ) going to last longer than a less heat sensitive chemistry with no liquid cooling?

 

[joeriv]

Here’s the link to the Geotab study:

https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=30698#p574842

Leftie, there is nothing wrong with your observations; however, observations backed up with objective data carry a lot more weight. The Geotab database right now is the best objective study we have - not perfect by any means, but considering the sample size (6,300 cars) it’s tough to argue against it.

We have the possibility of creating our own Leaf database using data contributed from LeafSpy users. I don’t know how many users there are, but I would guess enough to set up a very credible, objective degradation database. If you could get location, model year, type and SOH on a monthly/quarterly basis you’d have something of real value to Leaf users.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Sample size alone isn't enough, if the study doesn't adjust for variables like local climate. In the case of the Leaf, that alone is enough to "damage" the data enough to render the conclusions suspect. In one of the posts, WetEV seems to be saying that they give the 2012 Canary Pack good ratings. If so, that alone would be enough to make the study very suspect. I'll look into that later, as I just got up and haven't had breakfast yet.

EDIT: I took a quick look at the comparitor, and it shows a 2012 Canary pack Leaf having better SOH retention than the 2015 Lizard pack. 'Nuff said.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

The real question is do you think that Nissan is collecting the data across the cars?

 

[LeftieBiker]

From what I know of how Nissan operates, they probably have the gross data, but haven't done anything with it.

 

[johnlocke]

The real question is do you think that Nissan is collecting the data across the cars?

Of course they are. What do you think Carwings was all about? Nissan has the ability to track every Leaf it built. Older models aren't tracked anymore just because the cellular modem they used became outdated. You get a monthly reminder that they track data on a nag screen even. Even if you opt out, they still collect some data.

 

[HerdingElectrons]

Speaking of which is there any reasonable way to physically disable the cellular radio by unplugging it or w/e. I really dislike that any data is being transmitted

 

[GaleHawkins]

Dealer just replaced my battery in 2016 Leaf SE. Range said 168 miles when I got in. Drove 10 miles and now it says 155. Are they putting 40 kw-hr batteries in now as replacements?

Car has 71k miles, battery was down to 61% SOH.

CaliFeaf I just got a call from National Leaf customer rep confirming my 30 kWh warranty claim will start working through the channels now that service techs have confirmed the 4 bar loss of the SOH gauge. I was glad to hear this morning that Nissan is using the 40 kWh battery to replace failed 30 kWh batteries.

How is your new 40 kWh battery working out range wise for you after putting some miles on it?

Now I am waiting to get approved for the new battery then a time line for my Leaf to be ready for the road with a range of more than the 60 miles when I took it in. I really think this is going to happen.

 

[GaleHawkins]

Speaking of which is there any reasonable way to physically disable the cellular radio by unplugging it or w/e. I really dislike that any data is being transmitted

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17760

This is an old tread but I did like the dash diagram. I am OK with my car being tracked at my age should I forget the way home.

 

[HerdingElectrons]

Thank You