Are you sorry you bought a Leaf?

[surfingslovak]

I am still liking Leaf after 4k miles and although I don't have range anxiety, Leaf's short range has been bugging me. I am not a hyper miler or right lane driver, I drive it for fun like a regular car and get under 50 miles range with daily 80% charge which I use primary to extend the battery life. I am not using A/C, so once the weather gets colder I expect to get even less then that.

+1

My story is very similar to yours and had Nissan offered 20 miles (four bars) more range for ~ $5K, I would have gladly taken it, even if it added 100 lbs of weight to the vehicle. I can understand why they haven't offered it though and I look forward to the new and greatly improved battery modules they announced for 2015. Other than that, I continue to be impressed with the LEAF and its competitive pricing.

 

[ERG4ALL]

Keep in mind that the energy to propel the vehicle goes up by the square of the speed, not the speed itself. Thus, to go 65 instead of 60 uses 17% more energy for just a 5 mph difference (65x65=4225 divided by 3600 [60x60] equals 117%). You can apply that algorithm to any speed differential you want to see the difference. Anyway, just 5 mph slower can make a big difference and is not that much of a hazard with the speeders. On my usual trips I pull out when traffic is clear as far as I can see in the direction I'm going. Then I go 55 mph until someone comes up from behind. As they approach (long before they would pull out to pass) I speed up to the speed limit. Then if they want to pass, they're breaking the speed limit, not me.

 

[Stoaty]

Keep in mind that the energy to propel the vehicle goes up by the square of the speed, not the speed itself. Thus, to go 65 instead of 60 uses 17% more energy for just a 5 mph difference (65x65=4225 divided by 3600 [60x60] equals 117%).

Another way to look at this is if it looks like you may not make it to your destination, 55 MPH takes 49% more energy than 45 MPH--so slow down and avoid getting stranded. You can always put your emergency blinkers on if you feel it is unsafe to go 45 MPH on the particular road you are on.

 

[surfingslovak]

Keep in mind that the energy to propel the vehicle goes up by the square of the speed, not the speed itself. Thus, to go 65 instead of 60 uses 17% more energy for just a 5 mph difference (65x65=4225 divided by 3600 [60x60] equals 117%).

Another way to look at this is if it looks like you may not make it to your destination, 55 MPH takes 49% more energy than 45 MPH--so slow down and avoid getting stranded. You can always put your emergency blinkers on if you feel it is unsafe to go 45 MPH on the particular road you are on.

Great point, thank you for your response. Following some of the great advice on this forum, I slowed down considerably, and I would imagine that other folks have done the same. I believe that it can be done safely, but it requires some practice, and most of all patience.

I grew up in Germany though, and before you roll your eyes, let me assure you that even after more than a decade in this country, 65 mph is slow for me. I think the slowest I went on the autobahn was 80 mph, usually when there was a posted speed limit or when I was stuck behind a truck or in traffic. Usually, it was 90 or more. Granted, when in Rome, do as Romans do and all that. And as oil reserves dwindle and gasoline becomes more expensive, I would imagine that more drivers will slow down to conserve fuel.

However, and this is the other consideration for me, I believe that EVs are at a higher risk of being rear ended. Of course, this is anecdotal and based on a very small sample of data, but unless everyone else slowed down as well, I would rather drive 60 or 65 mph, even if I expended more energy. I am willing to forgo some conveniences however, and I have cut back on A/C and heater usage a bit.

 

[highcountryrider]

Keep in mind that the energy to propel the vehicle goes up by the square of the speed, not the speed itself. Thus, to go 65 instead of 60 uses 17% more energy for just a 5 mph difference (65x65=4225 divided by 3600 [60x60] equals 117%). You can apply that algorithm to any speed differential you want to see the difference. Anyway, just 5 mph slower can make a big difference and is not that much of a hazard with the speeders. On my usual trips I pull out when traffic is clear as far as I can see in the direction I'm going. Then I go 55 mph until someone comes up from behind. As they approach (long before they would pull out to pass) I speed up to the speed limit. Then if they want to pass, they're breaking the speed limit, not me.

I drove the speed limit in my ICE and will continue to do so in the LEAF. I hang out in the right lane most of the time,
with the exception of those places where congestion is a problem. I really think it's all phycological - a fear of being
passed/that someone will "get there first". It took me a while to get over that myself, but now (ICE or LEAF) I accelerate
on the ramp to match traffic, merge, and set the cruise at 60. A few folks pass me; I pass a few. Most of the "speeders"
are over in the left lanes.

And are also sitting there waiting for me at the bottom of the off-ramp.

 

[abasile]

Keep in mind that the energy to propel the vehicle goes up by the square of the speed, not the speed itself.

The power needed to overcome wind resistance increases with the cube of the speed. However, the power needed to overcome rolling resistance and drivetrain losses increases approximately linearly. So the overall power needed to propel the vehicle does not increase quite as fast as the cube of the speed. At higher speeds, wind resistance tends to dominate. At low speeds, it does not. Slowing from 30 mph to 25 mph, for instance, will have much less of an effect on overall efficiency than slowing from 65 mph to 60 mph.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i started driving conservatively with my first Prius 7 years ago. now its habit. i never feel like i am getting run over but part of that is being in WA where drivers are a bit slower anyway but if i am in a multi lane road and someone choses to follow me then that is HIS choice.

i will never drive faster because i am "expected" to. and ya, i piss off people every single day but rarely, if ever causes myself or anyone else to get to where they are going more than a few minutes later than normal.

slowing down a bit really makes a difference. i did the Centralia trip at 70 mph on a full charge and had 14 miles left after 65 miles (a minor side trip added)

the other day, i did it with speeds running mostly 60-62 mph (few bursts up to 65 but mostly to take advantage of a few downhill slopes) and added another 12 miles of in-town driving. got home with 76 miles and had 13 miles left.

granted the guess gauge is exactly that and i have found in those situations that 13 miles just off the freeway will get me nearly 20 miles in town.

 

[IBELEAF]

i started driving conservatively with my first Prius 7 years ago. now its habit. i never feel like i am getting run over but part of that is being in WA where drivers are a bit slower anyway but if i am in a multi lane road and someone choses to follow me then that is HIS choice.

i will never drive faster because i am "expected" to. and ya, i piss off people every single day but rarely, if ever causes myself or anyone else to get to where they are going more than a few minutes later than normal.

slowing down a bit really makes a difference. i did the Centralia trip at 70 mph on a full charge and had 14 miles left after 65 miles (a minor side trip added)

the other day, i did it with speeds running mostly 60-62 mph (few bursts up to 65 but mostly to take advantage of a few downhill slopes) and added another 12 miles of in-town driving. got home with 76 miles and had 13 miles left.

granted the guess gauge is exactly that and i have found in those situations that 13 miles just off the freeway will get me nearly 20 miles in town.

Sounds like your driving habits are more conservative then mine and you may live in less hilly area, hence your have a better range. I've tried driving conservatively for few weeks when I got Leaf where I used primarily ECO mode and controlling my speed, but it didn't feel natural to me. Especially on a freeway, going at 60 mph when there is no traffic just not comfortable when everyone else zips by at 70 mph. Anyway, I feel like to get the 73 miles EPA rating I have to try hard and that's without using heater. So realistically for me range of Leaf is 60 miles or 5 miles per bar this summer (I've been monitoring mileage between bars very closely) and it will probably will be roughly 50 miles when I will start using heater.

 

[highcountryrider]

I've been driving mostly in ECO mode. I was driving a Toyota Starlet - 42 HP. :lol: So
ECO seems fine to me. What really impresses me is the regen in ECO. I can really
feel the difference and often gain 10 miles on the guess-o-meter when descending into
the Duwamish valley.

 

[JohnnySebring]

With about the same time of ownership and about the same mileage, I agree with you, I drive the hills of Seattle and I like to drive fast too. I also started out trying to drive conservatively but that's just not the driving I enjoy. 50 to 60 miles is about all I ever need a day and get it with 80% so I'm real happy with my Leaf. If I need the range, I know how to do it and that's ok too. I just can't resist the 90 mph sprint on the last mile of 520 before my exit to the office. I also fully use the climate control, mostly on Auto and never worry about the little bit of range it takes as it's nothing compared to my lead (Lithium) foot

Sounds like your driving habits are more conservative then mine and you may live in less hilly area, hence your have a better range. I've tried driving conservatively for few weeks when I got Leaf where I used primarily ECO mode and controlling my speed, but it didn't feel natural to me. Especially on a freeway, going at 60 mph when there is no traffic just not comfortable when everyone else zips by at 70 mph. Anyway, I feel like to get the 73 miles EPA rating I have to try hard and that's without using heater. So realistically for me range of Leaf is 60 miles or 5 miles per bar this summer (I've been monitoring mileage between bars very closely) and it will probably will be roughly 50 miles when I will start using heater.

 

[Packet]

part of that is being in WA where drivers are a bit slower anyway

I dunno... I've had some people ride my rear, though it's not unique to the LEAF.

There's a decently long stretch of Union Hill road that's at a steep grade, with no turnoffs and some very sharp turns on the way down. There's no way to pass anyone as the road is one lane in each direction, there's no way to pull over and let someone go past you, and the speed limit on that hill is (understandably) 25. In both the LEAF and the Beetle that preceded it, I can be coasting down the hill at 30mph and still have someone riding my bumper as if they'd like me to be doing 50. That doesn't happen /often/, but often enough -- especially on weekends -- to stick out in my memory.

Maybe the slow-driving thing is specific to the Olympia area.

 

[LEAFfan]

Sorry? As John McEnroe once said, "You cannot be serious!" Driving in Zen mode with the cleanest, quietest, smoothest car I've ever had is just beautiful. And it's really nice to be driving basically for Free since June and no more oil changes, transmission flushes, spark plug/wires replacements, fuel tank pressure sensor replacements, timing belt/water pump replacements, brake pad replacements, fuel injector and O2 sensors replacements, control module, rotor, and distributor replacements, and PS fluid replacements, all of which I had to replace with my old Civic GX. I just LOVE driving by all the gas stations and Costco always has long lines since they have the least expensive gas in the city. :mrgreen:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i started driving conservatively with my first Prius 7 years ago. now its habit. i never feel like i am getting run over but part of that is being in WA where drivers are a bit slower anyway but if i am in a multi lane road and someone choses to follow me then that is HIS choice.

i will never drive faster because i am "expected" to. and ya, i piss off people every single day but rarely, if ever causes myself or anyone else to get to where they are going more than a few minutes later than normal.

slowing down a bit really makes a difference. i did the Centralia trip at 70 mph on a full charge and had 14 miles left after 65 miles (a minor side trip added)

the other day, i did it with speeds running mostly 60-62 mph (few bursts up to 65 but mostly to take advantage of a few downhill slopes) and added another 12 miles of in-town driving. got home with 76 miles and had 13 miles left.

granted the guess gauge is exactly that and i have found in those situations that 13 miles just off the freeway will get me nearly 20 miles in town.

Sounds like your driving habits are more conservative then mine and you may live in less hilly area, hence your have a better range. I've tried driving conservatively for few weeks when I got Leaf where I used primarily ECO mode and controlling my speed, but it didn't feel natural to me. Especially on a freeway, going at 60 mph when there is no traffic just not comfortable when everyone else zips by at 70 mph. Anyway, I feel like to get the 73 miles EPA rating I have to try hard and that's without using heater. So realistically for me range of Leaf is 60 miles or 5 miles per bar this summer (I've been monitoring mileage between bars very closely) and it will probably will be roughly 50 miles when I will start using heater.

i put this in the "eco mode" thread but it bears repeating.

there is no significant difference in the amount of available power between drive and eco. the only difference is the pedal response. for the first say... 50% of pedal travel, eco provides less throttle response. its kinda like first gear or a slightly weaker version of "B" mode for Prius drivers.

a lot of people did not like it for some reason because they felt they could adjust their level of regen using the brakes while in drive mode.

i found that to be strange since in eco mode, i can control both with one pedal. so why use 2 pedals if there is a way to use one? but i digress

Seattle does have more hills, faster traffic, etc than Olympia but only because its an island. Olympia has hills but does flatten out in the South County to relatively flat (no such thing as true flat ANYWHERE in Puget Sound) as compared to most of the coastal area.

but the freeways are designed for more traffic. i will repeat my statement that i will never driver faster than i want to because someone else wants me to. in Seattle, if there are 4-6 lanes of travel, there is no reason whatsoever to speed "just because everyone else is doing it"

try the far right lane. i think you will find the average speed there to be 55-62 mph. at least that is what i have found.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

part of that is being in WA where drivers are a bit slower anyway

I dunno... I've had some people ride my rear, though it's not unique to the LEAF.

There's a decently long stretch of Union Hill road that's at a steep grade, with no turnoffs and some very sharp turns on the way down. There's no way to pass anyone as the road is one lane in each direction, there's no way to pull over and let someone go past you, and the speed limit on that hill is (understandably) 25. In both the LEAF and the Beetle that preceded it, I can be coasting down the hill at 30mph and still have someone riding my bumper as if they'd like me to be doing 50. That doesn't happen /often/, but often enough -- especially on weekends -- to stick out in my memory.

Maybe the slow-driving thing is specific to the Olympia area.

urban downhills follow a different rule. people tail gait because they too lazy to keep hitting their brakes. even i do it :? and i know its dangerous, but having done the efficient driving thing, i hate to waste gravity!~!

there is another thread where we talked about the most efficient way to drive rolling hills. my theory (which was not the most popular) was to gain as much speed going downhill and slowly bleed it off going back up the other side and that is exactly what i do.

there is a train bridge that i cross under frequently (i live on a small strip of land that winds between 3 lakes so there is only 3 ways out and this is one of them) where the speed limit is 35 mph (average publicly driven speed is actually around 42 mph)

now what i do when approaching the dip is go to zero power which slows me to say 30-32 mph then i gain speed going down (making sure i do not regen anything) hitting the bottom at 43-48 mph. then as i go up the other side, i will apply power of 5-7 kW usually cresting the other side at around 35-37 mph. ok??

or the short version of my response to your tail gaiter response would be; why didnt you wave??

 

[jkirkebo]

part of that is being in WA where drivers are a bit slower anyway

there is another thread where we talked about the most efficient way to drive rolling hills. my theory (which was not the most popular) was to gain as much speed going downhill and slowly bleed it off going back up the other side and that is exactly what i do.

Depends on how long and steep the hills are. If it takes 5 minutes to go downhill and the car (in neutral) speeds up to 75mph while going downhill, it will surely be much more efficient to regen at 55mph down the hill. You'll get back much more energy than what you need to speed up from 55 to 75 at the bottom. This is of course because air resistance increases by the cube of speed.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Depends on how long and steep the hills are. If it takes 5 minutes to go downhill and the car (in neutral) speeds up to 75mph while going downhill, it will surely be much more efficient to regen at 55mph down the hill. You'll get back much more energy than what you need to speed up from 55 to 75 at the bottom. This is of course because air resistance increases by the cube of speed.

just a guideline here. sanity is always the #1 rule. we have th Puyallup Hill if i did the same thing i would be over 100 mph by the time i hit the bottom!!

 

[k2msmith]

I've only had mine for a few days and I can say that I am increasingly more happy with it each day that I drive it. For 20-30 mile commutes, i think the gas car is pretty much dead for me.. There is no reason for me to go back. For the 50-60 mile drives , to which I have a few (remote offices and relatives houses),I have yet to test the convenience of on-trip charging at my destinations. I'll have to try that and report back...

 

[shay]

Far from it. I got my Leaf in early June. In mid July, we took a trip to Colorado from Texas which is around 750 miles each way. We drove our Highlander. The day after we got back, I took the Leaf out just to drive it. The driving experience is so much better in the Leaf versus an ICE car.

 

[Bassman]

7800 miles and counting. Love my LEAF. But faster 6.6 KW charging would be nice.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Depends on how long and steep the hills are. If it takes 5 minutes to go downhill and the car (in neutral) speeds up to 75mph while going downhill, it will surely be much more efficient to regen at 55mph down the hill. You'll get back much more energy than what you need to speed up from 55 to 75 at the bottom. This is of course because air resistance increases by the cube of speed.

Not quite. Air resistance (drag) increases by the square of velocity, approximately. Power (work/time) needed to overcome it increases by the cube of velocity.

In the example of rolling down a hill, the power to overcome drag comes from the acceleration of gravity. But I think your point that putting some of the power from gravity back in the battery via regeneration at moderate speeds, versus just coasting to terminal velocity (work = drag), is valid. One still ends up at the bottom of the hill but with a bit less momentum (mv) and a lot more recovered energy in the battery.


This is a fine explanation of aerodynamic drag for a layman (which I am, being a biologist, not a physicist):
http://physics.info/drag/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;