Battery Replacement Program Details

[DaveinOlyWA]

I would lease the battery assuming the termination fees/sign up fees, etc are reasonable until an acceptable 3rd party solution can be found. By then battery prices should be half of what they are today and guessing, Nissan will be selling them outright anyway.

Brian Brockman told me that Nissan has no intention of selling the battery pack outright. I will take him at his word.

If you choose to take what Brockman said a few days ago as the final word on battery replacement forever, you are most welcome to do so.

But if you are going to quote me, i think the least you can do is quote enough of what i said so others can realize i am talking about a possible scenario in 2016 OR LATER

 

[ERG4ALL]

Maybe this is why Nissan will not give an outright price for the battery. Suppose the battery would sell for $12,000 and under demanding use may be required after 5 years and 60,000 miles. Thus, if you bought a new battery (ignoring a core credit which Nissan has not supported in their $100/mo. plan) you would be spending $0.20 per mile. Add to that about $0.03 per mile for electricity and you have a cost of $.23 per mile. Now let's say that as a prospective customer you are looking at a 30 mpg ICE car vs. the LEAF. It then becomes easy to see that the cost of gas (most people would ignore oil, filters etc. because it isn't on the window sticker) would have to rise to $6.90 per gallon to even cost the same as an ICE car.

You can play with the figures, but it does seem that even at $6,000 for the battery, there is no advantage to driving a LEAF and it may still be at a disadvantage if you are comparing it with any car that gets greater than 30 mpg. Thus, Nissan has to come up with something that will not absolutely shut down the LEAF entirely with billions wasted. Maybe the next generation of batteries will alter the picture but a salesman once told me, "You sell what you have now, not what you will have."

 

[vrwl]

I find it interesting to compare Nissan's Announcement and Tesla's announcement that happened on the same week.

Nissan announce the rental/swap program and get a lot of angst for not providing details and the announcement is viewed by many as half-baked. The announcement is not particularly well received.

Tesla announce a swap/rental program and announce the rental price just like Nissan do, but did not announce what the formula will be for selling a new pack to someone who does not reclaim their original pack. This lack of detail is glossed over and the announcement is well received by most.

Both announcements lack details, Nissan are criticized for lack of detail while Tesla are not.

I think it comes down to way the companies handled the announcements. Nissan do a press release issued by an employee, Telsa do a live announcement by the President/CEO. Ghosn where are you?

The difference is that on Tesla's program, you can get your old battery pack back after turning in the "leased" pack. With Nissan's program, when you stop the program and turn in the "leased" pack, you get nada. No original pack, nothing to power your car, zilch. And THAT'S the reason why Tesla's plan is well received vs. the look of horror on the faces of people who hear about Nissan's plan.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I find it interesting that the biggest cheer leaders for this battery rental program are people that are currently leasing their cars.

Current owners seem to be less enthused.

Rah Rah Nissan!! Go Nissan Go!!

Sheesh Boom Bah!!

Why do you take defending nissan as if it were a personal crusade?
Even brian is more circumspect.

let me ask you something. why do you think a one sided conversation is productive? because that is all we have here. It is obscuring the issues and i am NOT DEFENDING NISSAN HERE.

I am a customer and I am ONLY looking at it from a customer's point of view. This thread has gone completely bonkers. So, I feel its well within my right to provide the other side of the issue to anyone who thinks there is no other side.

Am i being ridiculous? I think no more ridiculous than statements of "keeping my car 25 years" "so this goes on forever?" "Nissan will never do this or that"

Now, I admit to being guilty of this as well but many are filling in the blanks with absolutes that are way off base. So someone coming here to get info on this subject is going to read how many pages of negativity before they simply stop reading with the completely wrong impression?

We are on pay what? 40 something? i did not enter this discussion until like page 25 and that was probably too late. I personally think we need to delete the thread, take a deep breath and start over

 

[hyperlexis]

I find it interesting to compare Nissan's Announcement and Tesla's announcement that happened on the same week.

Nissan announce the rental/swap program and get a lot of angst for not providing details and the announcement is viewed by many as half-baked. The announcement is not particularly well received.

Tesla announce a swap/rental program and announce the rental price just like Nissan do, but did not announce what the formula will be for selling a new pack to someone who does not reclaim their original pack. This lack of detail is glossed over and the announcement is well received by most.

Both announcements lack details, Nissan are criticized for lack of detail while Tesla are not.

I think it comes down to way the companies handled the announcements. Nissan do a press release issued by an employee, Telsa do a live announcement by the President/CEO. Ghosn where are you?

The difference is that on Tesla's program, you can get your old battery pack back after turning in the "leased" pack. With Nissan's program, when you stop the program and turn in the "leased" pack, you get nada. No original pack, nothing to power your car, zilch. And THAT'S the reason why Tesla's plan is well received vs. the look of horror on the faces of people who hear about Nissan's plan.

Yes -- you are 'donating' your old battery pack to Nissan (which is still worth thousands of dollars -- do you get a tax write off for doing so....?) And then, after receiving your very expensive battery, Nissan 'leases' you a rebuilt unit for $1,200 a year. Assuming they don't raise the lease rate each year.

If General Motors does something with its Spark EV when it rolls out nationally, to significantly beat Nissan's battery capacity loss warranty, without resorting to 'battery leasing' schemes, they will really have a marketing edge. Despite the combo plug and other issues with the Spark.

And as an aside, don't auto body shops know what a Leaf battery pack replacement costs? Someone must.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I find it interesting to compare Nissan's Announcement and Tesla's announcement that happened on the same week.

Nissan announce the rental/swap program and get a lot of angst for not providing details and the announcement is viewed by many as half-baked. The announcement is not particularly well received.

Tesla announce a swap/rental program and announce the rental price just like Nissan do, but did not announce what the formula will be for selling a new pack to someone who does not reclaim their original pack. This lack of detail is glossed over and the announcement is well received by most.

Both announcements lack details, Nissan are criticized for lack of detail while Tesla are not.

I think it comes down to way the companies handled the announcements. Nissan do a press release issued by an employee, Telsa do a live announcement by the President/CEO. Ghosn where are you?

The difference is that on Tesla's program, you can get your old battery pack back after turning in the "leased" pack. With Nissan's program, when you stop the program and turn in the "leased" pack, you get nada. No original pack, nothing to power your car, zilch. And THAT'S the reason why Tesla's plan is well received vs. the look of horror on the faces of people who hear about Nissan's plan.

Tesla's program is completely different than Nissan's. No one is turning in a Tesla pack because it doesnt have the range left.

 

[thankyouOB]

The poll is informative.
60 percent want a buy pice.
Not too many, mostly leaf drivers, like the plan.

Who did nissan survey, per brian?
Martians?

 

[vrwl]

The poll is informative.
60 percent want a buy pice.
Not too many, mostly leaf drivers, like the plan.

Who did nissan survey, per brian?
Martians?

As a LEAF owner, I was NOT surveyed.

 

[TimLee]

As a proud Tennessean, a great state that has three excellent automobile manufacturers, I would like to personally apologize for Nissan.
This is the most shameful customer communications I have ever seen.
Has Nissan learned nothing from the Exxon Valdez, the Tylenol tampering case, and a variety of other good and bad communications examples over the past 40 years; to go out and communicate like this?
First Andy Palmer, as most polite and decent Tennesseans recognize, when you are unfortunately going to break a commitment, you start with an apology. And preferably some explanation of why you can't do what you said you were going to do.
And Brian Brockman, this is the biggest unclear mess of a communication I have ever read. I would expect better than this from a small ten person firm. And you're the head of Nissan Communications North America? And Jeff Kuhlman you're head of Nissan Global communications and allowed this mess? If it wasn't for the very much appreciated assistance from evchels and DaveinOlyWA of the advisory group this would be spinning around even more as an unclear mess.
It doesn't help when you make the disingenuous statement that "Owners and prospective owners voiced a preference for a monthly payment program". You structured a survey to get a response like that. That's what you wanted to hear, so you structured the survey to hear that. Most Tennesseans would consider your statement nearly a flat out lie.
The town hall meeting that Jeff Kuhlman, Andy Palmer, and Billy Hayes did in AZ was much more effective communication than this. To brief the advisory group in some detail and solicit questions / feedback, and then to roll out this mess on http://www.mynissanleaf.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is very bad for Nissan and for the LEAF product.
If I was Carlos Ghosn, I would expect all three of you to be at my office first thing on Monday with your resignation letters in hand. This is unacceptable performance for a company of the caliber of Nissan.

 

[JPWhite]

I find it interesting to compare Nissan's Announcement and Tesla's announcement that happened on the same week.

Nissan announce the rental/swap program and get a lot of angst for not providing details and the announcement is viewed by many as half-baked. The announcement is not particularly well received.

Tesla announce a swap/rental program and announce the rental price just like Nissan do, but did not announce what the formula will be for selling a new pack to someone who does not reclaim their original pack. This lack of detail is glossed over and the announcement is well received by most.

Both announcements lack details, Nissan are criticized for lack of detail while Tesla are not.

I think it comes down to way the companies handled the announcements. Nissan do a press release issued by an employee, Telsa do a live announcement by the President/CEO. Ghosn where are you?

The difference is that on Tesla's program, you can get your old battery pack back after turning in the "leased" pack. With Nissan's program, when you stop the program and turn in the "leased" pack, you get nada. No original pack, nothing to power your car, zilch. And THAT'S the reason why Tesla's plan is well received vs. the look of horror on the faces of people who hear about Nissan's plan.

We assume that if we dropout of the Nissan plan we have a car with no battery. Lack of detail now does not imply this is a certainty. I believe Nissan will hear our concerns about this and fill in that detail later this year. The two programs are different. Tesla is a short term rental with an undisclosed period of time where you can retrieve the original pack. Nissan's is a long term rental and at this point its not clear what happens if you are forced to terminate the agreement (totaled car, financial hardship or desire to stop paying).

Clearly Tesla are better at formulating and handling their EV programs. Nissan have some catchup to do.
Tesla are changing the sales model, building and owning their own charging infrastructure. Its a very compelling model.
Nissan are stuck with the dealership 'partnerships' and charging infrastructure partnerships. They have a legacy business model to manage and transform. Tesla started with a blank sheet of paper and have done a great job in building a better car business model.

Comparing Chrysler to Nissan I'd say Nissan are doing a pretty good job of stepping out and modifying their car models/business model. Let's keep giving them constructive feedback, as slow and laborious seems their willingness to change, they have demonstrated some willingness to listen and change. If we aren't able to influence them adequately, Tesla entering the lower end of the EV market in 2015 will provide further impetus to change or go bye bye.

 

[thankyouOB]

Poll is on the site.
Ck the index.

Now 65% dont like or iced it.
Just 6% like it.

 

[jhm614]

We are on page what? 40 something? i did not enter this discussion until like page 25 and that was probably too late. I personally think we need to delete the thread, take a deep breath and start over

I agree there's alot of angst being expressed here -- but that is the exact reason that we need to keep this thread. Nissan monitors this board and will probably use this to improve communication in the future.

Just a couple of changes could have gone a long way to correct this -- 1) I understand their call to the Advisory group had to be right before the announcement but they should have done a couple of calls -- a quick one in the morning and then a follow up call several hours later to answer questions after the board was able to think about the program. 2) Brian B should have taken those questions a created a FAQ to go along with the press release (or at least a FAQ that was posted here along with the press release).

Nissan cares about us as customers -- otherwise there would be no advisory board, no town hall meeting and zero presence here on MNL. Are they perfect? Nope. But they are trying to engage, which is pretty cool for a huge corporation that is based in another country. And I completely agree with you -- this program will continue to evolve over time, offering additional options.

I guess I'm saying it's okay for people to rant -- Nissan needs to hear it and use it. They will separate the good info from the "25 year" and "Need price now, so I can buy in 7 year" drama.

 

[jhm614]

Maybe this is why Nissan will not give an outright price for the battery. Suppose the battery would sell for $12,000 and under demanding use may be required after 5 years and 60,000 miles. Thus, if you bought a new battery (ignoring a core credit which Nissan has not supported in their $100/mo. plan) you would be spending $0.20 per mile. Add to that about $0.03 per mile for electricity and you have a cost of $.23 per mile. Now let's say that as a prospective customer you are looking at a 30 mpg ICE car vs. the LEAF. It then becomes easy to see that the cost of gas (most people would ignore oil, filters etc. because it isn't on the window sticker) would have to rise to $6.90 per gallon to even cost the same as an ICE car.

You can play with the figures, but it does seem that even at $6,000 for the battery, there is no advantage to driving a LEAF and it may still be at a disadvantage if you are comparing it with any car that gets greater than 30 mpg. Thus, Nissan has to come up with something that will not absolutely shut down the LEAF entirely with billions wasted. Maybe the next generation of batteries will alter the picture but a salesman once told me, "You sell what you have now, not what you will have."

+1 I think you nailed here. Maybe not the exact numbers but the scenario anyway.

 

[vrwl]

Poll is on the site.
Ck the index.

Now 65% dont like or iced it.
Just 6% like it.

I wasn't referring to the MNL poll, I was referring to the statement in the Nissan press release which stated "Nissan conducted a global survey of LEAF owners and prospective electric vehicle customers and reviewed publicly available industry data to help shape the replacement proposal. Owners and prospective owners voiced a preference for a monthly payment program, and that they wanted assurances that the battery will maintain its capacity at a certain level." . As a Nissan LEAF owner, I was NOT surveyed.

 

[TomT]

I'm a leaser... I'm not cheering.

I find it interesting that the biggest cheer leaders for this battery rental program are people that are currently leasing their cars.
Current owners seem to be less enthused.

 

[thankyouOB]

Poll is on the site.
Ck the index.

Now 65% dont like or iced it.
Just 6% like it.

I wasn't referring to the MNL poll, I was referring to the statement in the Nissan press release which stated "Nissan conducted a global survey of LEAF owners and prospective electric vehicle customers and reviewed publicly available industry data to help shape the replacement proposal. Owners and prospective owners voiced a preference for a monthly payment program, and that they wanted assurances that the battery will maintain its capacity at a certain level." . As a Nissan LEAF owner, I was NOT surveyed.

Me neither.
The stealing of the owned battery is truly offensive. It is outside the norm of values in US commerce and society.

 

[TomT]

And likely will not need to due to a different chemistry, TMS and a much larger capacity... Score another big one in the Tesla column...

Tesla's program is completely different than Nissan's. No one is turning in a Tesla pack because it doesnt have the range left.

 

[TomT]

Outside of the "advisory group", I wonder if we could find one Leaf owner on here who WAS surveyed...

I wasn't referring to the MNL poll, I was referring to the statement in the Nissan press release which stated "Nissan conducted a global survey of LEAF owners and prospective electric vehicle customers and reviewed publicly available industry data to help shape the replacement proposal. Owners and prospective owners voiced a preference for a monthly payment program, and that they wanted assurances that the battery will maintain its capacity at a certain level." . As a Nissan LEAF owner, I was NOT surveyed.

 

[Valdemar]

Outside of the "advisory group", I wonder if we could find one Leaf owner on here who WAS surveyed...

I wasn't referring to the MNL poll, I was referring to the statement in the Nissan press release which stated "Nissan conducted a global survey of LEAF owners and prospective electric vehicle customers and reviewed publicly available industry data to help shape the replacement proposal. Owners and prospective owners voiced a preference for a monthly payment program, and that they wanted assurances that the battery will maintain its capacity at a certain level." . As a Nissan LEAF owner, I was NOT surveyed.

I got the survey, it was long, tiring, and confusing and I didn't finish it. I hope I was not the only one who received it, otherwise you guys will blame this announcement on me

 

[jhm614]

Outside of the "advisory group", I wonder if we could find one Leaf owner on here who WAS surveyed...

I got the survey but couldn't complete it because I'm a leasee.... I think there is a thread about it around here somewhere...