Battery Replacement Program Details

[DaveinOlyWA]

We are on page what? 40 something? i did not enter this discussion until like page 25 and that was probably too late. I personally think we need to delete the thread, take a deep breath and start over

I agree there's alot of angst being expressed here -- but that is the exact reason that we need to keep this thread. Nissan monitors this board and will probably use this to improve communication in the future.

Just a couple of changes could have gone a long way to correct this -- 1) I understand their call to the Advisory group had to be right before the announcement but they should have done a couple of calls -- a quick one in the morning and then a follow up call several hours later to answer questions after the board was able to think about the program. 2) Brian B should have taken those questions a created a FAQ to go along with the press release (or at least a FAQ that was posted here along with the press release).

Nissan cares about us as customers -- otherwise there would be no advisory board, no town hall meeting and zero presence here on MNL. Are they perfect? Nope. But they are trying to engage, which is pretty cool for a huge corporation that is based in another country. And I completely agree with you -- this program will continue to evolve over time, offering additional options.

I guess I'm saying it's okay for people to rant -- Nissan needs to hear it and use it. They will separate the good info from the "25 year" and "Need price now, so I can buy in 7 year" drama.

after the call, we were encouraged to provide feedback and concerns about the program and we basically expressed the same concerns people here have expressed.

the lack of details is disturbing but manageable. What i found most concerning (that no one seems to care about btw) is the time to initiate the program. First Quarter of 2014 seems a long time to wait for something that many have already waited a long time for.

The thought that the battery warranty would cover anyone for now does not really wash for me because we have to be done below 70% capacity to take advantage of that and that is too far for some to manage. So there is a more immediate need here that is not being addressed.

Now, i dont know why its going to take so long to launch the program but have to guess that it "could" be battery pack supplies being tight with TN still struggling to meet current new LEAF sales/leases

legal issues with the battery leasing and the terms that have to be ironed out state by state. With something this revolutionary, someone is going to complain. if you have any doubts, ask Tesla about that.

About the battery survey. It was posted here in like 5-6 months ago and several people replied that they completed the survey so it was very much NOT just a Advisory Board thing. But there was a caveat. if you replied you were leasing and had no intention of buying the LEAF, the survey terminated before the battery questions came up and if i remember correctly, several people did not get that info until it was too late so not all got to reply.

now; FYI....(please dont hit me!!) I am one who did say that I would have prefered a monthly payment verses a large purchase cost. I had no intention of buying my LEAF (so i lied about that) but felt that if I had, a car payment (which is several hundred more than a lease payment) along with getting a loan for several thousand would not be in my best interests or anyone elses so that is why i took that response. Like most surveys, my true answer simply was not there so it was a compromise in itself.

as far as stealing the battery for one with full capacity? We need to start a poll on the "perceived" value of a LEAF with a 55 mile range verses one with an 84 mile range.

 

[TimLee]

Outside of the "advisory group", I wonder if we could find one Leaf owner on here who WAS surveyed...

I got it after finding out about it on MNL (it was in Spam folder), wasted 4 hours trying to do it, wouldn't take the input, saying I had already responded.
Each invitation was a use once response, but I had posted the link on here and apparently someone opened the link and responded.
I tried the survey company, they advised to request Nissan to resend the survey.
I tried that, Nissan never resent the survey.
My guess is that the survey went out to the mailing list of people that did the initial reservations or possibly just those that had ordered.
Thinking back on the survey, they clearly biased it to wanting you to say whether you would consider a battery lease / rental.

 

[Valdemar]

It wasn't clear from the survey that lease will be the only option, the questions made me think if they were just considering a payment plan with the right to own the battery once it is paid off,

 

[Nubo]

Maybe "pie in the sky", but what if Nissan modified the battery rental program such that you could terminate the program at any time, but at the time of termination you would need to pay:

(((bcpt) - (bcos)) / (bcps)) * (price of a new battery pack)

where bcpt = battery capacity of the rental battery at the time of termination
and bcps = battery capacity of the rental battery at the time you started the program
and bcos = battery capacity of your old battery at the time you started the program
and (price of new battery pack) = the price of a new battery pack at the time of termination.

Thus at the time of termination, you would be paying for any additional battery capacity that you had at that point compared to what your old battery had at the time you started the program. Would that make everyone happier with the program?

Definitely there needs to be a way to end the relationship without gutting the car. I trust this is self-evident! When King Solomon suggested cutting the baby in half, he wasn't really serious!

A way to fairly compensate Nissan, and retain ownership of a functional car. So that one may sell to a 3rd party without requiring the 3rd party to marry Nissan.

 

[Nubo]

The battery costs are still high, significantly so and apparently on the survey Nissan provided us, many said they would not pay that much money for a replacement pack. So if you got a 7 year loan on the car and you are faced with getting another loan for $10,000 or whatever in year 4 because you have exceeded the 60,000 miles? well that is not going to make anyone happy.

I don't get the argument that Nissan can't give a price because it would be "too high".

Hey, offer the rental option AND the outright price. The customer will decide whether or not it's "too high" and take the rental if it makes more sense to them. And then Nissan will have fulfilled their promise to give a battery price. (And no, Evnow, $100/mo for an open-end rental agreement is not a "price for a battery").

Either way, Nissan has to recoup their cost. If the recoup cost is realy so outrageously high, how will Nissan make money off of the proposed plan? Having monthly payments doesn't magically lower Nissan's cost to produce and distribute the battery.

If you agree that Nissan has to provide some termination mechanism, short of returning the battery and converting the LEAF into a terrarium, then a cash price is just one end of a spectrum between a fully amortized plan and a very-early lease buyout.

 

[TomT]

Wow, it sounds like a particularly well done survey (please note the dripping sarcasm)...

I did both the initial reservation and, obviously, ordered... Nada. Zippo. Nothing.

Since I'm leasing, clearly I would have been disqualified anyway... (Apparently Nissan assumed that if you were currently leasing, you would NEVER purchase and thus should be ignored... Obviously a faulty assumption.)

Outside of the "advisory group", I wonder if we could find one Leaf owner on here who WAS surveyed...

I got it after finding out about it on MNL (it was in Spam folder), wasted 4 hours trying to do it, wouldn't take the input, saying I had already responded.
Each invitation was a use once response, but I had posted the link on here and apparently someone opened the link and responded.
I tried the survey company, they advised to request Nissan to resend the survey.
I tried that, Nissan never resent the survey.
My guess is that the survey went out to the mailing list of people that did the initial reservations or possibly just those that had ordered.
Thinking back on the survey, they clearly biased it to wanting you to say whether you would consider a battery lease / rental.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The battery costs are still high, significantly so and apparently on the survey Nissan provided us, many said they would not pay that much money for a replacement pack. So if you got a 7 year loan on the car and you are faced with getting another loan for $10,000 or whatever in year 4 because you have exceeded the 60,000 miles? well that is not going to make anyone happy.

I don't get the argument that Nissan can't give a price because it would be "too high".

Hey, offer the rental option AND the outright price. The customer will decide whether or not it's "too high" and take the rental if it makes more sense to them. And then Nissan will have fulfilled their promise to give a battery price. (And no, Evnow, $100/mo for an open-end rental agreement is not a "price for a battery").

Either way, Nissan has to recoup their cost. If the recoup cost is realy so outrageously high, how will Nissan make money off of the proposed plan? Having monthly payments doesn't magically lower Nissan's cost to produce and distribute the battery.

If you agree that Nissan has to provide some termination mechanism, short of returning the battery and converting the LEAF into a terrarium, then a cash price is just one end of a spectrum between a fully amortized plan and a very-early lease buyout.

i understand you dont get it but do you remember the battery price of the ONLY EV to have a price available? neither do i. why? because i read it, laughed and immediately dismissed it as BS. simply not an option

**no response??** cmon!! what is the deal here? we have a battery price that is public knowledge (granted a different car) and no one knows or cares about it??

where is the "Well so and so has a battery price so whats wrong with Nissan?" crowd? i know you are out there

 

[TimLee]

As a purchaser, I do give Nissan a lot of credit and appreciation for having freely added the 5 year, 60,000 mile, 9 bar capacity warranty. They did the right thing on that. Even though it doesn't guarantee what Nissan stated as expectations of the battery life, it was a step in the right direction.
And the proposed battery rental at $100 per month is better than nothing. It will be a very good deal for those in AZ, TX, Las Vegas, FL, and other places that the LEAF is not properly designed for at this point in time. A national flat rate pricing is probably what the market expects, but it does mean the people in the cooler parts of the country are subsidizing the hotter parts of the country. Kind of like health insurance where the way it works is the healthy are lucky enough to subsidize the sick. I think its a good thing on health insurance, better if it was national, mandatory, and single payer. Don't feel quite as good about it on battery rental.
But as a purchaser, I consider an automobile OEM refusing to sell an essential spare part that some people need to replace for the vehicle to meet their requirements to be down right unethical.
It may be legal, as there aren't any legal requirements that an OEM provide spare parts. They could probably sell no spare parts if they wanted to, just like disposable non-serviceable cell phones. But I doubt the market would find that very acceptable, for a product that cost some people 100% of their annual income and that most people expect to be functional for 10 to 12 years. Hiding money off shore to avoid income taxes is legal if you've got enough money to follow the legal loopholes and make it legal. But it is completely unethical.
Nissan refusing to sell a replacement battery may be legal but it violates the trust that the purchaser placed in the OEM. It is unethical.
Just because all the EV OEMs are doing it does not make it right
With my low 5000 miles per year and my location, the battery is unlikely to degrade below 9 bars prior to 5 years, most likely at around 7 to 8 years, so I don't personally need a replacement price right now.
But refusing to offer it means I have lost most of the trust I had in Nissan.
There are some people that need it now.
Or they at least need the battery rental option NOW, not having to wait till spring 2014 with no option on the vehicle they still owe money on other than to sell it and eat the loss.
And the 9 bar level proposed in the battery rental plan does not work for a lot of people using the LEAF.
IF all they'll do is battery rental, it has to have options for low miles per year and high miles per year.
And options for 9 bar, or 10 bar, or 11 bar.
Without those options, and with refusal to sell a 100% capacity replacement (both with and without core credit on the original battery), Nissan has unethically sold a completely inadequate product.

 

[evnow]

Who did nissan survey, per brian?
Martians?

You seriously think the polls we run are representations of Leaf owners as a whole and if Nissan's survey didn't exact match this, it was suspect ?

 

[klapauzius]

I think what would be helpful right now would be a statement (better commitment) from Nissan that they will provide a replacement battery for sale a few years from now (lets say 2016).

If they have issues with telling us the price (and I am sure they know exactly what it is) right now, they should give us the honest reason, in other words talk to us like grown-ups. I am sure people are mature enough and would understand e.g. that the price right now could be prohibitively high (although from all the numbers floating around, that is very unlikely) and would be hurting the whole EV business.

I would be happy to know that there will be a replacement battery available for sale eventually, even if it has an unknown price today. I just want the assurance that this rental deal is not the ONLY option for battery replacement.

 

[evnow]

If they have issues with telling us the price (and I am sure they know exactly what it is) right now, they should give us the honest reason, in other words talk to us like grown-ups. I am sure people are mature enough and would understand e.g. that the price right now could be prohibitively high (although from all the numbers floating around, that is very unlikely) and would be hurting the whole EV business.

You are not the only one who would receive that information - it would be all the competitors and anti-EV brigades just waiting for such information.

 

[evnow]

Why do you take defending nissan as if it were a personal crusade?
Even brian is more circumspect.

Why do you take attacking Nissan as if it were a personal crusade ? Even Big Oil is more circumspect

 

[evnow]

evnow - your replies here are coming off a little trollish. I'd suggest you re-read some of them.

I see absolutely nothing "trollish" about any of that. Care to point to statements you think are trollish ?

As for why people want to know the number, for some it's because it's now something they want to consider as a part of TCO. Some folks may want to baby their cars and keep them for 25 years.

Per month cost is an excellent way to calculate TCO.

BTW, if someone wanted to baby their car for 25 years, I don't think they should have bought a V1 EV. Those kinds of expectations were not realistic.

 

[TRONZ]

Why do you take defending nissan as if it were a personal crusade?
Even brian is more circumspect.

Why do you take attacking Nissan as if it were a personal crusade ? Even Big Oil is more circumspect

Well I think Nissan is looking at the current market and realized that most of the "Buy It Now" crowd would not buy it now. In fact after releasing the price they would probably be rewarded with screams of "THATS WAAAYYYY TOO MUCH!!!" and a new thread titled "Why Do You Hate Nissan?". I also find it a little strange that people most eager to get rid of their current batteries are also wanting to jump in on a replacement of the exact same battery.

 

[TomT]

This thread has become completely out of control. I'm bowing out of it.

 

[jhm614]

I don't get the argument that Nissan can't give a price because it would be "too high".

Hey, offer the rental option AND the outright price. The customer will decide whether or not it's "too high" and take the rental if it makes more sense to them.

I don't think it is the exisiting customers they are worried about. It's the fact that as soon as they announce the price, it will reported everywhere from MYL all the way out to Fox News, The Wall Street Journal and Rush Limbah. If that price is high, say 12K, they will get a -TON- of bad publicity and create the perception that "OMG, Leaf batteries only last two years and cost 12 THOUSAND dollars to replace!" I'm sure that's what they are trying to avoid.

 

[jhm614]

Since I'm leasing, clearly I would have been disqualified anyway... (Apparently Nissan assumed that if you were currently leasing, you would NEVER purchase and thus should be ignored... Obviously a faulty assumption.)

The survey asked if were leasing and if you were considering buying out the car at the end of the lease. If you said yes to both, you were allowed to continue.

 

[TomT]

Based on Nissan's residual values, only a fool would consider buying out a lease... Regardless, my comment stands.

The survey asked if were leasing and if you were considering buying out the car at the end of the lease. If you said yes to both, you were allowed to continue.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

I agree there's alot of angst being expressed here -- but that is the exact reason that we need to keep this thread. Nissan monitors this board and will probably use this to improve communication in the future.

There were certainly some common themes early on, and Nissan can take a lot of info away to help build a FAQ like you suggested for Press Release V2.

But this thread is long past being useful for Nissan. The only value it has now is identifying which forum users are unreasonable, so you can add them to your ignore list. On some pages in the thread, I'm only seeing like 1-2 posts now :lol:

Nissan cares about us as customers -- otherwise there would be no advisory board, no town hall meeting and zero presence here on MNL. Are they perfect? Nope. But they are trying to engage, which is pretty cool for a huge corporation that is based in another country. And I completely agree with you -- this program will continue to evolve over time, offering additional options.

Could be that they care, could be they want to give the appearance of caring. I think much of their interaction really comes down to market research. No matter what it's called, I do like the fact there's SOME interaction, I'm just not willing to give them too much credit for this one.

You seriously think the polls we run are representations of Leaf owners as a whole and if Nissan's survey didn't exact match this, it was suspect ?

Yes. You have to spend a great deal of time crafting the questions just right to make sure you're not influencing the answers, UNLESS you're trying to get survey results to justify a decision you're already leaning towards. You need to make sure that the audience is a truly representative set of your users. Whether they would be directly impacted by a decision or not, they are still likely to have an opinion on it. Seems like Nissan didn't realize this last bit.

I see absolutely nothing "trollish" about any of that. Care to point to statements you think are trollish ?

Ok, sure. I'd say other words apply to the posts as well.

I'm very disappointed in you, Oscar Apparently Saudi oil is dear to you.

Why do you want to know the price of the replacement battery pack now ? Are you planning to buy one now ?

ps : If you stop hyperventilating, may be people will take you more seriously.

You want a price NOW, so that you can buy it in 7 years ? Do you really expect that to be a convincing argument ?

How can this be a serious argument ? If a company doesn't do something now, they won't do it 7 years from now ?

All the people clamoring for the price RIGHT NOW, so that they can buy one 7 years from now are playing right into the hands of Faux News types. Billionaire Saudi Sheiks thank you, laughing all the way to their luxury 100,000 sq ft air conditioned "tent".

If that is your attitude, I'd take it that you don't really have a solid reason.

Indeed, why ? Let me guess - is it because this is like a new industry, perhaps ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Why do you take defending nissan as if it were a personal crusade?
Even brian is more circumspect.

Why do you take attacking Nissan as if it were a personal crusade ? Even Big Oil is more circumspect

Well I think Nissan is looking at the current market and realized that most of the "Buy It Now" crowd would not buy it now. In fact after releasing the price they would probably be rewarded with screams of "THATS WAAAYYYY TOO MUCH!!!" and a new thread titled "Why Do You Hate Nissan?". I also find it a little strange that people most eager to get rid of their current batteries are also wanting to jump in on a replacement of the exact same battery.

what?? do i sense a bit of reasoning, common sense and reality in your statement?? :shock: i think i need to reread your statement! cant be true!

i posted a blog mostly because putting the information here is simply too disjointed and the information gets lost. So I thought the best way to get a "spotlight" is put it somewhere else and post it here.

There really is two sides to a story!

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2013/06/defending-nissans-battery-replacement.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

obtw; the answer to my question about the ONLY battery pack price available today?

for the "smaller" Focus EV Battery pack WITHOUT TMS (that would be extra and is essentially built into the car anyway and yes I know, i did go thru the tech specs of the car when still a Ford employee) $17,355.76