Battery Replacement Program Details

[JPWhite]

Me thinks they don't have this idea fully cooked and more changes are coming.

Me agrees

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Something nobody has talked about is the "latest technology" angle... if they want to put in a 40kwh pack is the hundred a month deal more attractive?

 

[klapauzius]

Me thinks they don't have this idea fully cooked and more changes are coming.

Me agrees

Lets hope for the best...If it is like other announcements about numbers from Nissan, then what will happen is that $100 per month will turn into $140 per month...

 

[Deleted member 9549]

In Europe there isn't an end of lease contract, it's forever. The idea of this was from Nissan's partner Renault, they sell all his EV with batterie renting. At the beginning was very exciting for the people because they thought you can buy a EV cheaper, pay for some years until came a new cheapers and with more range generation of batteries and then buy one of this. But Renault (and now Nissan too) say NO, leasing it's forever.

I see on the Nissan UK website that it lists lease payments to rent the battery by yearly mileage and term, 12, 24, or 36 month. So it sounds like it isn't forever, its 1, 2, or 3yr. What happens when that time is up?

Here's the link

 

[Weckel]

In Europe there isn't an end of lease contract, it's forever. The idea of this was from Nissan's partner Renault, they sell all his EV with batterie renting. At the beginning was very exciting for the people because they thought you can buy a EV cheaper, pay for some years until came a new cheapers and with more range generation of batteries and then buy one of this. But Renault (and now Nissan too) say NO, leasing it's forever.

So, if you want to sell the car, you have to find someone willing to pick up the 'eternal' rent?
What if you don't find a buyer and you can or want not to pay the rent...do they come to take the battery away then?

We also we do these questions too, but by now haven't answer.

In Europe there isn't an end of lease contract, it's forever. The idea of this was from Nissan's partner Renault, they sell all his EV with batterie renting. At the beginning was very exciting for the people because they thought you can buy a EV cheaper, pay for some years until came a new cheapers and with more range generation of batteries and then buy one of this. But Renault (and now Nissan too) say NO, leasing it's forever.

I see on the Nissan UK website that it lists lease payments to rent the battery by yearly mileage and term, 12, 24, or 36 month. So it sounds like it isn't forever, its 1, 2, or 3yr. What happens when that time is up?

after those periods, you must renew it again, with the mileage you want. So with Renault.

 

[BBrockman]

Hi everyone:

Thanks to Chelsea for jumping in and sharing some additional details or clarification.

We have some work to do to more clearly explain the program on some levels. As a couple folks suggested, a simpler Q&A seems to be in order to clarify the basic topics that may have been vague in our presentation. I'll take that homework back, and try to use this thread as a starting point.

I can tell this topic is of very high importance to members of the forum. Thanks for your patience.

Brian

 

[smkettner]

Something nobody has talked about is the "latest technology" angle... if they want to put in a 40kwh pack is the hundred a month deal more attractive?

Sure but why not give us a direct price on the 40 :roll:
Not counting on this EVER.

I see it like this. My $120,000 CD is paying about 1% or $100 per month. Do I spend it all on a Tesla or just all the income on a LEAF battery. Decisions, decisions

Actually a Tesla is less than that so I still have some mad money.

 

[KJD]

Hi everyone:
Thanks to Chelsea for jumping in and sharing some additional details or clarification.
We have some work to do to more clearly explain the program on some levels. As a couple folks suggested, a simpler Q&A seems to be in order to clarify the basic topics that may have been vague in our presentation. I'll take that homework back, and try to use this thread as a starting point.
I can tell this topic is of very high importance to members of the forum. Thanks for your patience.
Brian

Patience is a virtue of which I have none.

Andy Palmer promised a purchase price on the battery 6 months ago. It is now time to make good on that promise.

 

[JPWhite]

Me thinks they don't have this idea fully cooked and more changes are coming.

Me agrees

Lets hope for the best...If it is like other announcements about numbers from Nissan, then what will happen is that $100 per month will turn into $140 per month...

Hey Mr Nissan Here's another idea for the hopper. Don't thank me thank Elon Musk.

So I rent one of your batteries for $100/month. In addition to providing me a minimum 9 bar capacity for as long as the car is in the program, I get free charging nationwide on the Nissan MaxCharger(Tm) Chademo Network. You announce you will roll-out fast chargers to x dealerships in y cities. I can go coast-to-coast for $100/month and never have to buy a battery. You also announce you will partner with Starbucks, Burger King, McDonalds etc to offer food & refreshments, at the dealer, while my car charges.

Another idea. For the $100/month all drivetrain components are also covered. Want other items covered? Sell me a maintenace+ warranty. Oh yeah and if I buy your Maintenace+ warranty when the car is new, I get 10% battery rental discount when the time comes.

I don't like $100/month? How about $75/month but I pay $250 each time the battery is replaced or a drivetrain component fails.

 

[Stoaty]

Perhaps this replacement program is more of a trial balloon than a fait accompli. Maybe some adjustments can be made to deal with the "pain points". It isn't so much that a rental is bad, its more the "no exit" aspect.

 

[amelsayed]

Dear Brian [BBrockman]
1. It was very useful for Nissan through you to help articulate the new $100/Mo offering. I have no doubt that, as you said, for SOME this will prove a very viable option.

2. I speak on behalf of many who in 2010 honestly applauded Nissan and felt very positive about how such a huge corporation had the courage to assume the PIONEER ROLE it took in EVs while it was counting on future technological breakthroughs to deliver the best EV offered to the consumer at the time Nissan took the challenge.

My point of writing is to explain the perspective of MANY who made the decision to go with the LEAF on TWO SOLID PREMISES that were disclosed in 2010 when we made our decisions to reserve LEAFs: a) That the range is around 100 miles, b) that we can expect about 80% capacity at 10 years. Many of us WERE WAITING for the technology to cross these thresholds for us to buy the LEAFs and WOULD NOT have jumped in otherwise.

3. From what's unfolding as we speak it is becoming more evident that the promise "ABOUT 80 Miles for 6 year old 2010/2013 24Kwh batteries" will not be realized with current technology. It also looks like by 2016-2017 more advanced technologies may make that "80mi_for>6yr" achievable.

4. What many of your 2011-2015 LEAF owners (or prospective owners) want is just this "80mi_for>6yr" capability by whichever means possible. In addition to the option above at (1), NISSAN SHOULD CONSIDER developing a "stop gap" technical bridge to deliver this goal while the guys and gals at the labs are hard at work. NISSAN COULD OFFER A 5-6Kwh ADD ON PACK TO BE DISTRIBUTED IN THE TRUNK/FLOOR/FRONT (1.5-2Kwh each). Your engineers a fully capable of seamlessly integrating these CAPACITY EXTENDERS into the whole EV (Even some MNL members can most likely do it too if they had access to the specifications and codes).

5. It looks like the 24Kwh pack is around $7800. So 6Kwh add-on mod should cost $2-3K which many owners will gladly pay. I would also venture that even having the add-on package in three 2Kwh modules would be even better as we can buy them and add them as we loose capacity bars. The idea of scrapping the entire 24Kwh pack because it lost 30% capacity is TOO WASTEFUL AND HENCE TOO EXPENSIVE. Nissan will loose money on it and the owners will feel bitter about their share of the high cost. If the main battery pack lost 30% of its capacity, shoot for 30% replacement in 3 modules adding 10% capacity each. This will be much cheaper!

6. THIS SOLUTION MAY COST NISSAN LESS THAN THE GIANT RENT A BATTERY SCHEME on the long run and would even provide several "spin-offs" that may prove valuable in many other Nissan hybrid vehicle projects. By 2016-2017 the capacity integrity problem may be less felt with more modern technologies coming on board .

Al

2011 June LEAF, 32.5K 11 Bars, NorCal

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I doubt they'd do that. Nissan's in the business of selling/leasing new cars (both count as "sales" in sales data). Spending the engineering, tooling, safety testing, certification, etc. effort to retrofit old cars of a generation that will not have been sold for years isn't really in their best interest.

See my post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13331&p=303776#p303776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as to what Nissan could do w/the cars once the person no longer wishes to pay the $100/month fee. Heck, Nissan could turn around and resell those used cars w/o the $100/month obligation, which a private owner can't do.

Back to Nissan's core business, if the scheme is so unattractive to Leafers that everyone leases, well, they accomplished their goal. People turn in cars at end of lease and they lease another new car (which counts as yet another new car "sale" for them).

Perhaps this replacement program is more of a trial balloon than a fait accompli. Maybe some adjustments can be made to deal with the "pain points".

Could be. Look what happened w/Microsoft's reversal on sharing games, used games, console having to check in via the Internet every 24 hours, etc. w/the upcoming Xbox One, after all the very negative publicity and Sony taking potshots at them.

Or, it could be this: I recall in a social psychology class I took AGES ago in college some sort of tactics to make people think something is more acceptable. I don't recall the term for it. Maybe someone w/a psych degree can chime in?

Example:
They'd start by asking you to donate blood but you have for some inconvenient amounts of time, like 3x a week, 2 hours each time. This sounds terrible.
They then offer something else more palatable like once every 2 months, for an hour.

The person is more likely to accept the 2nd option after being given the first horrible choice than if they were the 2nd one only. It's as if the recipient feels the other person is doing them a favor and they feel more obligated to accept.

 

[MrIanB]

This announcement is a joke, and this will be my last Nissan EV till they change their TMS and the battery warranty mess. I am glad I leased my 2011 and it will be going back to them at the end of the lease. The value on the car will be less than payoff and why would I buy the car, pay it off and then continue to pay $100 per month for renting a battery?? I might as well go back to an ice and spend $100 or less on gas. At that time, I hope a used Tesla or new Tesla model will be available at a better price and longer range than Nissan will ever achieve. I feel for the people who bought their Leaf as the value will be on the floor, have a hard time getting much equity and stock paing $100 for renting a battery. Wow!!!! What a slap in the face to all the Leaf owners.

Thanks for nothing Nissan and good bye,

Ian B

 

[Nubo]

it is the grift, EV. i want freedom from contracts not another monthly bill to go with the phone, the cable,the credit cards for gasoline, the insurance, the ip, the healthcare, the gas co, the mortgage, and on and on.

Put $x in a bank account and arrange auto payment of interest & some principle every month.

Really is it so difficult to wrap your head around this idea ?

BTW, this is only till you want to keep the car - not exactly perpetuity.

Also, let me ask you this. Let us say Nissan says the battery costs $10k. What are you going to do with that information ?

It's not the difficulty of the math and I don't have a problem with amortizing the cost. But it IS perpetuity as far as has been described till now. Either I'm faced with paying in perpetuity for a 70% moth-eaten battery, or finding someone to take over that obligation. And good luck with that!

Amortization would be fine, but over a fixed number of years as a "rent to own". $100 per month for 5 years and then I own the pack free and clear. That's not too bad. I could then live with the old pack or sign up for another 5-year lease and start over. Or I could pay off the lease early and sell the car. Or pay of the lease early and start another cycle because my threshold of utility might be 10 bars. Nissan still gets the money.

Just as an example, and I'm not interested in the specific numbers but the method. Adjust the payment or years as needed to cover the real cost of the pack.

 

[Stoaty]

Or, it could be this: I recall in a social psychology class I took AGES ago in college some sort of tactics to make people think something is more acceptable. I don't recall the term for it. Maybe someone w/a psych degree can chime in?

There is a variant of this described here:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48815478/ns/health-womens_health/#.UEPn5ZawSSo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Asking a weird question before you make your real request gets you better results"

Using that strategy, I have two questions for Nissan:

1) How long does it take a grasshopper to rip the seams out of a dill pickle?
2) What is the full cash price of a replacement battery pack?

Oh well, thought it was worth a try.

 

[amelsayed]

Or, it could be this: I recall in a social psychology class I took AGES ago in college some sort of tactics to make people think something is more acceptable. I don't recall the term for it. Maybe someone w/a psych degree can chime in?

There is a variant of this described here:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48815478/ns/health-womens_health/#.UEPn5ZawSSo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Asking a weird question before you make your real request gets you better results"

Using that strategy, I have two questions for Nissan:

1) How long does it take a grasshopper to rip the seams out of a dill pickle?
2) What is the full cash price of a replacement battery pack?

Oh well, thought it was worth a try.

The answer to your first Q is: $100 a month and the pickle becomes the property of Nissan
The answer to your second Q is: I will tell you in the spring

 

[Deleted member 8423]

Wonder who is having the worse week...the Nissan PR folks or the Xbox One PR folks?

I think it's great that Nissan kept its commitment to communicate this in the spring. And kudos to Brian for stepping into the fray here. But the original communication was awful. It should've been immediately supplemented by a FAQ. It glosses over even the most basic details.

The whole concept of making the lease option a LIFETIME commitment, with no other options for people that want to purchase their cars, is really just insane. I think the model might make sense for future purchases/leases, though there is a big open question of what that does to the tax credit. I can't wait for the hit new reality show "Battery Repro Man", coming this fall on SpikeTV.

I like the idea in this thread of this monthly fee also giving you access to a charging network (maybe free CHAdeMO, maybe free/discounted Blink/Chargepoint access; you'd need to let people pick the network when they sign up). That would give them a way to force the a-hole dealers that are limiting access to the Nissan-provided EVSE's to open them up to anyone with a fob.

 

[surfingslovak]

I think the model might make sense for future purchases/leases, though there is a big open question of what that does to the tax credit.

I believe that you touched on an important detail in your post. What seems to be downplayed in this discussion so far is the fact that current lease deals are heavily subsidized by the federal tax credit. When you factor in state and local incentives, the lease costs about half of what it would otherwise. What we seem to forget when comparing the battery rent scheme to a new lease is the fact that the battery in a new vehicle is essentially free, courtesy of the rebate. It's hard to compete with that.

Although it's clear that the subsidies will end at some point, they will likely be around for a few more years. If Nissan can move away from battery ownership to a rental model, the upfront cost of the car will be lower. Although the price point of the battery payment is debatable, I believe that the idea is to be competitive with comparable gas cars. I too believe that customers like to have options and one size does not fit all, but when you look at what Renault has done with the Fluence and the ZOE, a battery purchase option is not available for those vehicles at all. While this could be a hard sell for existing customers, do you think that this could help future LEAF sales?

 

[JeremyW]

I can tell this topic is of very high importance to members of the forum. Thanks for your patience

We've waited long enough. Get your act together. Now.

The packs currently in our cars have value, even at end of life. If you think we're going hand you back that pack for free you've got another thing coming.

 

[thankyouOB]

Hi everyone:

Thanks to Chelsea for jumping in and sharing some additional details or clarification.

We have some work to do to more clearly explain the program on some levels. As a couple folks suggested, a simpler Q&A seems to be in order to clarify the basic topics that may have been vague in our presentation. I'll take that homework back, and try to use this thread as a starting point.

I can tell this topic is of very high importance to members of the forum. Thanks for your patience.

Brian

you are thinking about a Q&A now?

hard to believe that this is the way a major international corporation rolls out a major program for a key, new brand.
but maybe we are just a free focus group, and the real work of communicating with the public comes later.