Battery Replacement Program Details

[JPWhite]

As far as resale. Assume I want to sell my 7 year old Leaf with a 70% battery. I suspect someone will buy it for $7k and be ok with the range. In 2 years time, they need more range, so they start paying $100 a month. When you get to this part of a vehicle's life, the lack of ICE maintenance really helps. It helps to the tune of $50 a month. The gas savings is a bit more than $50 a month so you are still coming out ahead.

For this to hold water, Nissan will have to be willing to warrant the drivetrain as well as the battery for the $100/month. Consumers won't want to pay $100/month and then be landed with the cost of a new drive motor or inverter, (or even the on board charger for that matter which isn't part of the drivetrain). Consumers driving high mileage cars typically don't have the cash to replace expensive items that require dealer servicing.

As long as the $100/month makes 'drive it until the doors fall off' a reality then I believe the program is both reasonable and will be adopted in years to come.

 

[kentuckyleaf]

There are a sizable minority of people that rarely drive more than 10 miles in a day. This minority could drive an old Leaf with 50% batteries, charge to 80% and never hit LBW. Some Leafs might live to fairly old ages. Assuming they stay reliable, why replace batteries if you don't need the extra range?

That's what I'm betting on. My daily commute is less than 20 miles. After my i-MiEV's lease is up in January 2015, I'll be scouting for an older LEAF. Even with 25% battery capacity, it might be enough for my daily commute.

Without knowing your commute route, local weather conditions or how safe it might be, with a commute that short I'd say you would be a candidate for an e-bike or scooter rather than a car. Far cheaper than a Leaf, and if your commute is on city streets it's probably faster as well. I know during the height of the commute I can _walk_ faster than traffic is advancing on a major arterial through my city, and my bike is 3 or 4 times faster.

I'd never use an e-bike for a commute. I want to live to enjoy my retirement. If I had a short commute, I'd pick up a Leaf with short range if it were cheap. Our commute would be easy with a 50% battery, and the new the 6.6Kw charger would be nice for a quick charge to cover a 20 mile rt trip to the store after work.

 

[davidcary]

As far as resale. Assume I want to sell my 7 year old Leaf with a 70% battery. I suspect someone will buy it for $7k and be ok with the range. In 2 years time, they need more range, so they start paying $100 a month. When you get to this part of a vehicle's life, the lack of ICE maintenance really helps. It helps to the tune of $50 a month. The gas savings is a bit more than $50 a month so you are still coming out ahead.

For this to hold water, Nissan will have to be willing to warrant the drivetrain as well as the battery for the $100/month. Consumers won't want to pay $100/month and then be landed with the cost of a new drive motor or inverter, (or even the on board charger for that matter which isn't part of the drivetrain). Consumers driving high mileage cars typically don't have the cash to replace expensive items that require dealer servicing.

As long as the $100/month makes 'drive it until the doors fall off' a reality then I believe the program is both reasonable and will be adopted in years to come.

By drivetrain - do you mean engine and tranny? I'll take that bet of zero anyday (heck they can throw in fluid changes...). Sure - I suppose the CV joints might be considered drivetrain by some. It isn't a bad marketing idea to make it an all in cost (even if they add $20).

 

[thankyouOB]

so how long does it take Brian and the rest of the Nissan PR crew to put up a Q&A for that announcement last spring?
we need a tad of clarification on a few issues.


any bets?
I am thinking that a reasonable person could do it in less than a month, but we wont get it before the fall.


also too: answer this question:
When will Nissan offer a buy and install price for a new battery to owners of a LEAF?

 

[JPWhite]

By drivetrain - do you mean engine and tranny?

Given the LEAF doesn't have these, no. I was referring to the EV drive and charge electronics unique to an EV that are responsible for making it go forward. I suppose half-shafts could be included as a drive-train component, but since any shop should be able to replace a half-shaft, it's less of a concern. That could be part of any other optional extended warranty they market. All Nissan would need to warrant along with the battery is the stuff that makes it go and keep going.

 

[JPWhite]

any bets?
I am thinking that a reasonable person could do it in less than a month, but we wont get it before the fall.

Rather unfair, no one individual can act alone in crafting announcements that will commit the corporation to a course of action. I'm sure Brian is more than capable of crafting the plan in less time than it takes you to charge your LEAF. Getting it approved may take longer, considerably longer

 

[thankyouOB]

any bets?
I am thinking that a reasonable person could do it in less than a month, but we wont get it before the fall.

Rather unfair, no one individual can act alone in crafting announcements that will commit the corporation to a course of action. I'm sure Brian is more than capable of crafting the plan in less time than it takes you to charge your LEAF. Getting it approved may take longer, considerably longer

you think a month is too long to approve a set of Q&A from a plan that has been in the works since February?
maybe you and I are REALLY saying they dont really have a plan and that first needs to be worked out.

I believe Nissan execs know what they want to do but dont want to explain why they dont want to sell the battery or answer our questions about it.

 

[klapauzius]

you think a month is too long to approve a set of Q&A from a plan that has been in the works since February?
maybe you and I are REALLY saying they dont really have a plan and that first needs to be worked out.

I believe Nissan execs know what they want to do but dont want to explain why they dont want to sell the battery or answer our questions about it.

February? They started selling the car December 2010. It seems inconceivable that in all those years they seriously assumed no one would want to buy a replacement battery, nor a price for one.

I think you are right in assuming that for whatever tactical considerations, they do not WANT to tell us the price.

 

[myleaf]

you think a month is too long to approve a set of Q&A from a plan that has been in the works since February?
maybe you and I are REALLY saying they dont really have a plan and that first needs to be worked out.

I believe Nissan execs know what they want to do but dont want to explain why they dont want to sell the battery or answer our questions about it.

February? They started selling the car December 2010. It seems inconceivable that in all those years they seriously assumed no one would want to buy a replacement battery, nor a price for one.

I think you are right in assuming that for whatever tactical considerations, they do not WANT to tell us the price.

Although Nissan promised they would, Nissan may not offer the option to buy a battery.

I am not an expert, but from what I read, parts (batteries) need to be available just to meet warranty requirements
(maybe an expert can comment)

 

[TimLee]

maybe you and I are REALLY saying they don't really have a plan and that first needs to be worked out.

I believe Nissan execs know what they want to do but don't want to explain why they don't want to sell the battery or answer our questions about it.

+1, Its clear they didn't have much of a plan. Throwing out a half baked near no plan is a strange risky approach.
+1, They apparently don't want to apologize or explain anything.
I am baffled by their approach. Losing the trust of your customer is the absolute worst thing any company can do. They've lost my trust, and the trust of a large % of the purchasers.
And irritated purchasers who no longer trust Nissan is not a good thing for the LEAF or electric vehicles in general.
When someone comments positively about the LEAF, yes I still say it is great and that I love it.
But it is very hard not to spend most of the time explaining how I am baffled by Nissan, and that no one should ever PURCHASE a LEAF.

also too: answer this question:
When will Nissan offer a buy and install price for a new battery to owners of a LEAF?

My guess is 2019, based on Nissan behaviour to date. The LEAF I purchased will be eight years old.

 

[davewill]

For this to hold water, Nissan will have to be willing to warrant the drivetrain as well as the battery for the $100/month. Consumers won't want to pay $100/month and then be landed with the cost of a new drive motor or inverter, ...

Huh? That makes no sense. If I had a high-mileage ICE car, it wouldn't be warranted. As far as the $100 a month, it's not like they are making me put a big down payment on it. I can sign up for the new battery and if the car craps out a short time later, I sell it (or junk it) and the payment obligation goes away. No problem.

 

[JPWhite]

I sell it (or junk it) and the payment obligation goes away. No problem.

You assume that after paying 6 months of $100 payments Nissan will be willing to relieve you of the financial commitment towards the new battery. If it is 'easy' to get out of the battery agreement Nissan will be taken to the cleaners by all and sundry. I can assure you they won't install an expensive item without financial hooks into the person asking them to install it.

 

[vrwl]

I sell it (or junk it) and the payment obligation goes away. No problem.

You assume that after paying 6 months of $100 payments Nissan will be willing to relieve you of the financial commitment towards the new battery. If it is 'easy' to get out of the battery agreement Nissan will be taken to the cleaners by all and sundry. I can assure you they won't install an expensive item without financial hooks into the person asking them to install it.

+1 Yeah, there's bound to be some sort of minimum term associated with this thing

 

[smkettner]

Minimum term, balloon payment or it has to go back to Nissan. And I would not count on the first two.
As I said this has GM EV1 written all over it. OK you can only own LEAF as long as you can tolerate the range on the original battery.

 

[Valdemar]

It seems it is only a question of time until someone sues Nissan for not disclosing the fact that the replacement battery will only be available under the perpetual lease terms. I hope Nissan will lose and will be forced to repurchase the cars that were sold. I will gladly sell them mine at that time.

 

[davewill]

I sell it (or junk it) and the payment obligation goes away. No problem.

You assume that after paying 6 months of $100 payments Nissan will be willing to relieve you of the financial commitment towards the new battery. If it is 'easy' to get out of the battery agreement Nissan will be taken to the cleaners by all and sundry. I can assure you they won't install an expensive item without financial hooks into the person asking them to install it.

Yes, I do assume that. It seemed fairly obvious to me. The battery goes back to Nissan. I don't see how that constitutes "taking them to the cleaners". They get their battery back, and I certainly don't see a financial boon.

 

[GregH]

Minimum term, balloon payment or it has to go back to Nissan. And I would not count on the first two.
As I said this has GM EV1 written all over it. OK you can only own LEAF as long as you can tolerate the range on the original battery.

I would have bought my EV1 with the original batteries had I been offered the chance. That being said because the EV1 was a closed lease, if you made enough noise it was possible to get the complete pack replaced... easier than a Leaf. And in those days 80% was considered end of life, not 70%

 

[GRA]

Obviously, there are people for whom the range at 70% remaining is adequate, but judging by the fact that the single most requested improvement of Leaf owners is more range, it's still a major problem, especially for anyone commuting in a major metropolitan area (i.e., a lot of freeway driving). To be sure, my remarks are probably conditioned by living in the Bay Area, which ranks #1 in the country for mega-commuters, i.e. 50 miles or more one-way. But the typical metropolitan area is at least 25 miles in diameter, so 40 miles (or less) of reliable year-round range just doesn't cut it when you make allowances for weather and emergencies.

There could be some selection bias going on there. Those who find the range adequate aren't going to post about the range being too limited. The ones who complain about inadequate range are the road warriors and they are likely to be the minority. Others are trying to fit a single-car-household peg in a short-range-commuter-car hole and that misses the point completely. If the national statistics are valid about the average driver going less than forty miles a day and 60% of households having more than one car, there is an enormous market for the LEAF with its current range. The ones who complain the most are those for whom the short range isn't a good fit.

Believe it or not, not everyone lives in sprawling metro areas such as the Bay Area, LA, or Dallas/Fort Worth. And some of those who do live in such a place have a commute that is well within the range of the LEAF and have another car for the occasional trips to the other side of the sprawl.

I completely agree that people for whom the Leaf's range is adequate aren't likely to complain, but if we want to move beyond the early adopter crowd the range has to be sufficient to provide peace of mind, and that requires range adequate not just for the average day, but also the exceptional one.

Very few people (outside the early adopters who are willing to make accommodations to the car) are comfortable buying cars based on their typical daily range needs. I'm not talking about the difference between a routine commute and a road trip, just the difference between a routine commute and a bad one, plus a spur of the moment/emergency run. That's what we need to provide to expand beyond the early adopter niche. And then there's the whole bit about Nissan having previously quoted 5 years to 80%, which is what many people were counting on when they decided to buy the car, but we've beaten that poor horse to death.

 

[GRA]

Without knowing your commute route, local weather conditions or how safe it might be, with a commute that short I'd say you would be a candidate for an e-bike or scooter rather than a car. Far cheaper than a Leaf, and if your commute is on city streets it's probably faster as well. I know during the height of the commute I can _walk_ faster than traffic is advancing on a major arterial through my city, and my bike is 3 or 4 times faster.

I'd never use an e-bike for a commute. I want to live to enjoy my retirement. If I had a short commute, I'd pick up a Leaf with short range if it were cheap. Our commute would be easy with a 50% battery, and the new the 6.6Kw charger would be nice for a quick charge to cover a 20 mile rt trip to the store after work.

Everyone has their own comfort level in dealing with traffic, and you know yours. Having commuted and done all my local travel (beyond walking range) by bike for many years on city streets with heavy traffic, my personal limits are higher than some, and so far, so good (knock plastic). But, unless you need 5 seats a lot, something like the Smart would seem to be more than adequate for your commute. No reason to pay for a larger battery than you need.

 

[JPWhite]

I sell it (or junk it) and the payment obligation goes away. No problem.

You assume that after paying 6 months of $100 payments Nissan will be willing to relieve you of the financial commitment towards the new battery. If it is 'easy' to get out of the battery agreement Nissan will be taken to the cleaners by all and sundry. I can assure you they won't install an expensive item without financial hooks into the person asking them to install it.

Yes, I do assume that. It seemed fairly obvious to me. The battery goes back to Nissan. I don't see how that constitutes "taking them to the cleaners". They get their battery back, and I certainly don't see a financial boon.

I just don't think you have a devious mind.

Here's the scenario Nissan will take measures to avoid.

In say 6 years I go and buy a LEAF at a auction. Bald tires, 5 capacity bars missing, two windows with bricks through them etc. I go to the dealer and say please put me a brand new battery in my 'fix it up LEAF'. Say Nissan are dumb enough to do this. I fix the car up, sell it with 'new battery' to an unsuspecting soul for a handsome profit and stop paying. I repeat this week after week, flipping beater LEAF's.

Sure. Nissan can repo the batteries, if they can find the vehicles I've sold on.

Clearly they will put financial hooks into me such that I am liable for the battery cost should I 'sell it on to the guy in the pub'

Soooooooooo, back to my original point.

If I have financial hooks in me, I won't want to be committed to a battery rent/lease term whatever *and* two months later have to start paying to fix expensive EV parts. Making a commitment I will want to see other expensive drive train components covered with the battery.

My point is once I have asked for the new battery, I am gonna be on the hook for $100 for a while.