Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[smkettner]

Unfortunately for many of us, myself included, the loss of capacity and range has overwhelmed all the other positives and swamped the expectations...

I'm sure I'm echoing a lot of people here--the LEAF had surpassed our expectations in many ways, and met 90% of our needs (EXCEPT on the battery capacity issue).

Battery capacity (range) was the immediate dissappointment as the 100 mile range while possible was a bit elusive.
Now the longevity issue even in mild climates again does not measure up to the promises.

I think everyone should get a new battery at 4 bar loss before 10 yrs, 120,000 miles but prorate after the initial 60/60 free replacement warranty.

 

[tombobcat]

My LEAF BATTERY app shown AHr=51.78(78.16%) but I haven't lost the 2nd CB yet. My calculation 2nd CB should disappear at AHr=52.5, anyone know the AHr that actually lose the 2nd CB?

 

[GregH]

My LEAF BATTERY app shown AHr=51.78(78.16%) but I haven't lost the 2nd CB yet. My calculation 2nd CB should disappear at AHr=52.5, anyone know the AHr that actually lose the 2nd CB?

The Leaf's declaration of a lost bar and the BMS' estimation of true Ah capacity may not be all that tightly coupled.. or at the very least there may be some amount of filtering going on in the vehicle controller before changing the energy bars display. Since we've seen the 12th bar go at anywhere from 55.1 to 55.8Ah (?) It is possible some extra calculations may be going out, perhaps not in the BMS at all. Maybe it needs to see a particular Ah for a consistent number of cycles? Or an average capacity over a given time? Or perhaps some allowance for temperature? TickTick may have found an indicator in the Car-CAN data he's calling SOH. Perhaps that's a better indication of the displayed (bars) capacity as it's coming from the vehicle controller not the LBC. All that being said however, if others have seen the 11th bar go at 52.5Ah and you're at 51.8, it's probably safe to say your days are numbered :shock:

 

[smkettner]

Sad thing is I have more time than miles to the warranty expiration. The incentive is now to drive the LEAF less and the Subaru more to stay in the free battery window a little longer trying to qualify.

 

[TomT]

If I owned, I'd be doing everything I could to torture the battery...

Sad thing is I have more time than miles to the warranty expiration. The incentive is now to drive the LEAF less and the Subaru more to stay in the free battery window a little longer trying to qualify.

 

[TimLee]

I think everyone should get a new battery at 4 bar loss before 10 yrs, 120,000 miles but prorate after the initial 60/60 free replacement warranty.

A fairly reasonable compromise idea, something the class action lawyers should have pushed for if they had been doing their job well. Also an approach that would give most owners a much more positive opinion of Nissan's commitment to the vehicle than the battery capacity warranty they have provided that is so short of their original statements on expected capacity degradation.
But to prorate something you have to provide the cost of the battery.
Nissan and Tesla are both vehemently unwilling to do that.
When the question of battery cost was raised at the recent Society of Environmental Journalists conference in Chattanooga, the only one of the four panelists that would respond was Volkswagen.
Volkswagen stated $500 per kWh. (i.e. $12,000 for a LEAF battery)
Nissan, GM, and Toyota made no statement on battery price.

 

[abasile]

I think everyone should get a new battery at 4 bar loss before 10 yrs, 120,000 miles but prorate after the initial 60/60 free replacement warranty.

That would be more fair.

I still love our LEAF. However, the bottom line is that all LEAFs sold to date have a serious defect in the battery system that will affect most American buyers. I'm not aware of any other EV manufactured in significant numbers that is as vulnerable to battery capacity loss.

I'd really like to put a "hot" battery in our LEAF once one becomes available. Considering our mileage, I'm willing to pay something (cash, of course) but it doesn't seem fair to pay full price to replace a defective part. Considering our cooler climate and willingness to drive gently, I expected at least eight years out of the battery pack when purchasing the LEAF.

By the way, yes, it gets cold at night where we live and that has helped our LEAF's battery, but there's no question that most of our capacity loss has occurred during the warm/hot season. And people do at times move from cooler areas to warmer areas, and expect to take their cars with them.

 

[TomT]

Yep. It is clear now that, unless you live in the Arctic 24/7, you are going to suffer early temperature degradation.

However, the bottom line is that all LEAFs sold to date have a serious defect in the battery system that will affect most American buyers. I'm not aware of any other EV manufactured in significant numbers that is as vulnerable to battery capacity loss.

 

[dhanson865]

Sad thing is I have more time than miles to the warranty expiration. The incentive is now to drive the LEAF less and the Subaru more to stay in the free battery window a little longer trying to qualify.

If you have an attached garage use the leaf as a space heater this winter. 0 miles but lots of charging to 100% and then unplugging to run the heater with the windows down.

Doesn't sound like fun.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I expected at least eight years out of the battery pack when purchasing the LEAF...

If I did the math right, extrapolating from your miles driven so far, that would seem to indicate that you were expecting at least 130,000 "mountainous miles" until battery EOL.

Did you mean that?

That's ~50% more miles than I was hoping for from my battery, for my (roughly) similar driving conditions, over ~ eight years.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I think everyone should get a new battery at 4 bar loss before 10 yrs, 120,000 miles but prorate after the initial 60/60 free replacement warranty.

That would be more fair.

I still love our LEAF. However, the bottom line is that all LEAFs sold to date have a serious defect in the battery system that will affect most American buyers. I'm not aware of any other EV manufactured in significant numbers that is as vulnerable to battery capacity loss.

I'd really like to put a "hot" battery in our LEAF once one becomes available. Considering our mileage, I'm willing to pay something (cash, of course) but it doesn't seem fair to pay full price to replace a defective part. Considering our cooler climate and willingness to drive gently, I expected at least eight years out of the battery pack when purchasing the LEAF.

By the way, yes, it gets cold at night where we live and that has helped our LEAF's battery, but there's no question that most of our capacity loss has occurred during the warm/hot season. And people do at times move from cooler areas to warmer areas, and expect to take their cars with them.

I concluded the same thing, converted to a Lease for that very reason and strongly advise against buying a Leaf now. I only recommend that people do short term leases. Unfortunately we just can't expect Nissan to retrofit the old Leafs with new chemistry. I suspect they will for lease returns if they have to in order to sell them, but I don't expect any major concession for current owners. it's just a shame that all that hot air originally about having a testing facility in AZ and how this car was thoroughly hot weather tested appears to be BS. What's amazing to me is how it appears that this fact has done little to constrain sales. I guess fortunately, the din of excitement for EV's in 2013 has blotted out the complaints on this issue... a year ago I took an about face due to fears of what this would do to residual value. it was a major factor in our decision to switch from long term ownership and use of the Leaf as the primary car to switching to a lease and making it the secondary car... to our Tesla Model S. no doubt we paid a pretty penny premium to make that change in strategy and unfortunately we had to take a step back in demonstrating how there is a mid cost alternative for the masses, now we point to Tesla's 3rd generation as the "future" solution. Hopefully in the mean time, Nissan will step up to the plate with a long range, affordable, heat resistant EV.

we've gone from putting about 15,000 miles a year on the leaf to hardly ever using it. in 8 months we've put just over 3,000 miles on our leased Leaf. when we return the car at the end of the lease, we will unfortunately be leaving a lot of value on the table in terms of unused miles.

 

[TomT]

Or it may be that, with so many of the sales being two year leases, people aren't as concerned with it being their problem down the road...

What's amazing to me is how it appears that this fact has done little to constrain sales.

 

[davewill]

I expect to hit it about 4 months before my lease is up... Assuming that comes to pass, it will be interesting to see Nissan's stance on replacing the battery that close to lease turn-in...

I'd think they'd just do it. After all, someone buying the car after turn-in would be eligible for the replacement anyway.

 

[TomT]

Yeah, that is my thought too.

I expect to hit it about 4 months before my lease is up... Assuming that comes to pass, it will be interesting to see Nissan's stance on replacing the battery that close to lease turn-in...

I'd think they'd just do it. After all, someone buying the car after turn-in would be eligible for the replacement anyway.

 

[smkettner]

we've gone from putting about 15,000 miles a year on the leaf to hardly ever using it. in 8 months we've put just over 3,000 miles on our leased Leaf. when we return the car at the end of the lease, we will unfortunately be leaving a lot of value on the table in terms of unused miles.

This is the saddest part. Really says to me the LEAF is just unworkable. I am in similar situation wanting to use my LEAF less in hopes to use more time degradation to get a new battery. I need that battery replacement to avoid losing too much $$ on my LEAF purchase. If I need a new car too soon it will be back to the gas hog F150 or some econobox lease rather than a Tesla.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

we've gone from putting about 15,000 miles a year on the leaf to hardly ever using it. in 8 months we've put just over 3,000 miles on our leased Leaf. when we return the car at the end of the lease, we will unfortunately be leaving a lot of value on the table in terms of unused miles.

This is the saddest part. Really says to me the LEAF is just unworkable. I am in similar situation wanting to use my LEAF less in hopes to use more time degradation to get a new battery. I need that battery replacement to avoid losing too much $$ on my LEAF purchase. If I need a new car too soon it will be back to the gas hog F150 or some econobox lease rather than a Tesla.

Don't get me wrong, we love the Leaf still, just don't have as much need for a second car now that we have a long range EV. If I were somewhere in the middle temp zone in terms of ambient temp capacity loss, I have to admit I'd be tempted to do something less than honest, like parking the car on a heating blanket every night for a while. loosing the replacement window would suck. it looks like the early adopters who live in warm areas but not hot areas may get pinched by Nissan's replacement policy in the long run.

If you can, consider trading up toward a lease and cut your losses. I applied pressure to the dealer to give me a decent trade in and it worked. the car was financed, got enough to pay it off. I suggest showing up during the transition of model years, last year it was February, when they still had some 2013's they wanted to get rid of, right at the end of the month when they are eager to bump sales numbers. best to be on the fence, even walk away a time or two, work up the trade in value and work down the lease terms... worth a try anyway. Don't be afraid to be aggressive.

 

[TomT]

We've gone the opposite direction and are now averaging about 15K a year... My wife got a new job a few months back and now is the primary driver of the Leaf as she has the furthest to go, needs the car pools lanes, and does it 5 days a week. The unfortunate thing is, this is a trip I used to make myself a number of days a week, and an 80% charge was plenty for the round-trip when I did it up until a little over a year ago. Now, with the battery degradation, it takes 100% to do it and still leaves less Gids at the end of the trip than back in the 80% days. I expect that we'll be right at or slightly over our 60K limit at the end of the four year lease. We appear to be on track to loose our fourth bar about 4 months before the lease end...

we've gone from putting about 15,000 miles a year on the leaf to hardly ever using it. in 8 months we've put just over 3,000 miles on our leased Leaf. when we return the car at the end of the lease, we will unfortunately be leaving a lot of value on the table in terms of unused miles.

 

[abasile]

...I expected at least eight years out of the battery pack when purchasing the LEAF...

If I did the math right, extrapolating from your miles driven so far, that would seem to indicate that you were expecting at least 130,000 "mountainous miles" until battery EOL.

Did you mean that?

That's ~50% more miles than I was hoping for from my battery, for my (roughly) similar driving conditions, over ~ eight years.

I guess I should clarify that, no, I wasn't counting on 130K miles before purchasing the LEAF. During the first year of LEAF ownership we drove 13K miles. Then I got a job with a significant commute.

I was expecting at least 100K miles out of the original pack, and in light of the mountainous nature of my driving have always taken steps to prolong pack life (driving slowly/conservatively, maintaining good charging habits, maximizing shade cover, and avoiding high heat).

At our current annual mileage, I'd be okay with fewer than eight years of useful LEAF pack life. But I wasn't expecting to lose more than 15% of the battery's capacity after 2.5 years and 41K miles. I figured Nissan was being conservative in their estimate of 80% remaining capacity after five years. Now that figure looks very optimistic, even if one assumes 60K miles at five years.

Again, I really do like our LEAF and appreciate Nissan's decision to manufacture it. I just hope they'll treat their early adopters well when they finally put a price tag on replacement batteries.

 

[bowthom]

Hello,
I'm even more confused now. My Leaf DD is showing 80% health but my capacity is 59.73 Ah.
How can 62.97 = 91% health AND 59.73 = 80% health? Somethings wonky.




I'm going to post this in the Leaf DD thread too.

 

[Weatherman]

The next question is, when is bar #11 going to fall?

On July 11th, my LEAF's battery was at 57.45 Ahr. Today [Aug 12th], it's at 56.30 Ahr. The weather is, basically, going to be unchanged for the next two-and-a-half months.

I predict 54.00 Ahr by the end of the rainy season, on October 19th.

Looks like my prediction from August is going to be off by a little bit, but not by much. Maybe 54.6 by October 19th?

Battery temp after this evening's L2 charge was 90F-93F, and capacity readings are still falling at a steady 0.02 to 0.03 Ahr/day pace. Still have at least another week of summer (highs near 90 and lows in the 70s) before the first cold front sweeps summer away. Then, we'll cool off just a little with highs in the 80s and lows in the 60s.