Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[DesertDenizen]

Doesn't matter. LBW is where I don't feel safe driving after that..

+1. I have never been below two SOC bars.

 

[Stanton]

Doesn't matter. LBW is where I don't feel safe driving after that..

+1. I have never been below two SOC bars.

Then you're leaving a LOT of range in the pack. In fact, there's a lot more range in the bottom 2 bars than the top 2 (and you don't need more than a few weeks of driving to see that).

 

[keydiver]

So now my 80% charge range is 59.7 miles. I start with 10 bars and end with 1 bar. Loose the first bar before I've traveled 7 miles. Average speed is 26.6 mph. All this with no AC. :shock: It is incrediably muggy !!! TG, I have curly hair otherwise I'd arrive at work with a bad-hair-day everyday. Should have purchased a golf cart for EV, or better kept my Geo which while gas got 50 mpg even on the highway. Very sad.

Sounds about normal to me. I always lose the first bar in 7-8 miles. Did you reset your miles per kwh gauge, and if so, what did it read after that trip. Average MPH doesn't tell me much.

 

[Stoaty]

ha...I feel redeemed. Andy clearly stated that they did all their testing and projections for life based on the LA4 cycle and 12,500 miles/year. He later stated that the things that will degrade a battery faster are driving high speeds continuously, high temperatures, frequent fast charging, more mileage. Most normal drivers in the US will not drive the LA4 cycle since we have so many freeways. If I remember correctly the LA4 cycle only has a maximum speed of 55mph for a few seconds, most of it is 35mph or less (city driving) and lots of chances for the battery to rest.

Graphic added to Wiki:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Nissan.27s_Responses_and_Actions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks!

 

[DesertDenizen]

Doesn't matter. LBW is where I don't feel safe driving after that..

+1. I have never been below two SOC bars.

Then you're leaving a LOT of range in the pack. In fact, there's a lot more range in the bottom 2 bars than the top 2 (and you don't need more than a few weeks of driving to see that).

Well I have read that shallow cycling is preferable to deep cycling, and I don't drive much, so my car pretty much stays in the 2-8 SOC bar range with no inconvenience for me. Still lost a bar at 6,881 miles, which is disheartening.

 

[mksE55]

Doesn't matter. LBW is where I don't feel safe driving after that..

I too would tell you its ok to hit VLBW if needed ,you have about 4 miles left if you really need it. LBW is where Nissan tells you to charge so I stick with this as being E on my range as well, just safer and saves battery( Nissan says it does). only been there a few times.

 

[spike09]

I encourage everyone to post their months of ownership, total miles and number of capacity bars info into their signature. And of course their location and VIN in their profile.[/b]

also your charging behavior, up to 100%, 80% or lower and how long the car spends at 100%.. your long term efficiency would be nice also

Yes I managed to fill all of the above into my signature!

 

[09Bamb00]

So now my 80% charge range is 59.7 miles. I start with 10 bars and end with 1 bar. Loose the first bar before I've traveled 7 miles. Average speed is 26.6 mph. All this with no AC. It is incrediably muggy !!! TG, I have curly hair otherwise I'd arrive at work with a bad-hair-day everyday. Should have purchased a golf cart for EV, or better kept my Geo which while gas got 50 mpg even on the highway. Very sad.


Sounds about normal to me. I always lose the first bar in 7-8 miles. Did you reset your miles per kwh gauge, and if so, what did it read after that trip. Average MPH doesn't tell me much.

5.1

 

[smkettner]

Doesn't matter. LBW is where I don't feel safe driving after that..

I too would tell you its ok to hit VLBW if needed ,you have about 4 miles left if you really need it. LBW is where Nissan tells you to charge so I stick with this as being E on my range as well, just safer and saves battery( Nissan says it does). only been there a few times.

Last time I was down to 5 miles it held for 4 miles. Then the 4 miles left held for 3 miles. I think 6 miles indicator went 2 or 3.
This was fairly low speed driving on the streets.

 

[ALLWATZ]

That said, I'm having a little difficulty reconciling the following two statements by Andy Palmer in the video:

There is a degradation of all batteries over life. It's straightforward physics and chemistry.

and

We never imagined that there would be a customer, and apparently there is, uh, where, who would, say, at the end of five years of life, that they would want to bring their state-of-health of the battery back up to 100%, and therefore buy a battery.

I'm sorry, but that simply does not compute, particularly on a vehicle which is intended to be eco-friendly but has a quite limited range to begin with.

+1 The statement from Mr Palmer is a little disingenuous. Even a golf cart has a battery that can be replaced! What motor vehicle has a component that was designed to not be replaced at some time in the future?

 

[JPWhite]

That said, I'm having a little difficulty reconciling the following two statements by Andy Palmer in the video:

There is a degradation of all batteries over life. It's straightforward physics and chemistry.

and

We never imagined that there would be a customer, and apparently there is, uh, where, who would, say, at the end of five years of life, that they would want to bring their state-of-health of the battery back up to 100%, and therefore buy a battery.

I'm sorry, but that simply does not compute, particularly on a vehicle which is intended to be eco-friendly but has a quite limited range to begin with.

+1 The statement from Mr Palmer is a little disingenuous. Even a golf cart has a battery that can be replaced! What motor vehicle has a component that was designed to not be replaced at some time in the future?

I agree that it is spin. I think I posted earlier i this thread or another that at the test drive events prior to product launch people were asking how much to replace a battery pack.

Some Apple products are made such that the owner can't replace the battery. If you are willing to pay Apple they'll replace it for you and are happy to quote you a price ahead of time. I understand that Nissan don't need to make it easy to replace the battery pack as they don't anticipate it'll need doing very often. But it WILL need doing from time to time either during warranty period or long after the warranty has expired.

The real reason is they don't want to say.

Problem with not saying is that the rumor mill will establish an expectation of what one may cost and Nissan won't be able to control what people expect. When eventually someone is forced to pay for one; expectations will be dashed. Nissan are abdicating the management of expectations. Hmm.... that sounds familiar.

 

[azdre]

Doesn't matter. LBW is where I don't feel safe driving after that..

+1. I have never been below two SOC bars.

Then you're leaving a LOT of range in the pack. In fact, there's a lot more range in the bottom 2 bars than the top 2 (and you don't need more than a few weeks of driving to see that).

According to the owners manual you are supposed to charge as soon as possible after LBW, preferably before VLBW. This means (to me) that you should not be using that range often.

 

[azdre]

This video just fills me with more rage!!! :evil: I can't wait to pick it apart this weekend...

I find it refreshing, and a good start. He admitted that their 76% number was based on a population of cars that average 7,500 miles, Carla B should have known we'd see right through this. They must have the data to define a curve for the population of cars who travel between 10K and 14K miles per year in the heat, on the freeways, and they need to release that before they continue to dup consumers out of money.

I hope that Nissan's repurchase of our LEAF is the start of individuals being able to get a fresh start when the car no longer suits their needs based on expectations established pre-sale.

I also hope that eventually there will be low enough sales and enough buy-backs or lawsuits to force them into a range or capacity warranty. If the batteries are going to behave the same as the 12 volt batteries and degrade 2-3x as fast in the heat, they should be warrantied and pro-rated just as the 12 volts are. If you make it 70% at 5 years/60,000 miles, you'll only be replacing packs in the south, and only those that need the range. It's the only logical conclusion to this mess that I can see (if the car is going to succeed).

 

[ALLWATZ]

Well, I have been waiting for this day, the dreaded second bar loss . I had been losing range lately and thought this might be it :shock: . 1 capacity bar loss at 12 months/9500 miles and 2nd bar loss toady at 10250miles/14 months. :x To Mr. Palmer, none of it freeway and inbetween his 7500 mile and the national avg of 12500 miles. :?:
P.S. still in the 100's here although we will be getting a break this week
P.S.S. putting in the emoticons does help!

 

[Stoaty]

Well, I have been waiting for this day, the dreaded second bar loss . I had been losing range lately and thought this might be it :shock: . 1 capacity bar loss at 12 months/9500 miles and 2nd bar loss toady at 10250miles/14 months. :x

Wiki updated. Unfortunately, you are right on schedule for that second bar loss (average is 52.7 days between losing bar one and bar two, for those who lose a second bar).

 

[jspearman]

I just got a call from Nissan in Tennessee, about an hour ago. They are responding to the two complaints we've made after each bar loss, and they want us to bring our car in next week sometime. She said Nissan is flying in a technician to look at the car and that they would see what they could do to make me happy. She actually said that might include replacing modules. This doesn't fix the underlying problem, but I'm happy to see some action. I talked to someone named Adrian.

I have yet to make any real efforts, besides my two calls to Nissan, so I view this as very positive and proactive on Nissan's part.

 

[LEAFfan]

there are a lot of half-truths and outright lies out there regarding the LEAF. There are even some that owners firmly believe are true!

Spike, please post these half-truths and outright lies about the LEAF and the ones that owners/lessees firmly believe to be true. Thanks. The suspense is overwhelming like waiting on Romney to give details on his 'policies'.

 

[JPWhite]

I hope that Nissan's repurchase of our LEAF is the start of individuals being able to get a fresh start when the car no longer suits their needs based on expectations established pre-sale.

Very well said. They need to establish expectations prior to sale so no one gets an ugly surprise.

One way they could do this is to have a series of graphs like ticktock, go to the LEAF ordering webpage, punch in where you live, your average miles per year, mix between highway and city etc etc. Then the webpage could present the appropriate graph showing expected degradation based on your answers. There could be an upper and lower limit like ticktock showed and a guarantee that as long as the pack isn't abused or used significantly more than indicated, there will be pro-rated warranty if the actual degradation falls outside the expected band. As a potential consumer you now can come to the conclusion "this car works for me", or "This car doesn't work for me". Nissan sells just to those who will be ultimately satisfied. If someone with a good use case gets unlucky and the battery degrades more quickly than anyone could anticipate and he/she doesn't abuse the pack then a pro-rated warranty replaces the pack.

What this achieves is

1. Vehicles are sold to those who will most probably be satisfied.
2. Customers have a warranty they can depend on, which should help tip the undecided/unsure into a purchase.

We're moving from early adopter into mass marketing soon, the general populace won't 'take a chance' on a loosely written warranty like the early adopters did on faith. Especially now they have our experiences to draw upon.

 

[TonyWilliams]

With the data reindexed by Nissan to 76% in 5 year at 7500 mile per "Nissan-LEAF-Year(TM)" for Phoenix, the result averages 4.8 % per Nissan-LEAF-Year(TM).

However, not indicating a 10% loss the first year is blatantly misleading. Therefore, subsequent years would then equal 3.4% reduction per NLY. With 8 NLYs in a normal driver's 5 year/12,000 mile driving experience in Phoenix, the final results based on Nissan's data (and not their consumer public data) is:

Year 1 : 12,000 miles = 90% [100.0% - 10% first year loss]
Year 2 : 24,000 miles = 84.56% [90.00% - (3.4% * (8/5))]
Year 3 : 36,000 miles = 79.12% [84.56% - (3.4% * (8/5))]
Year 4 : 48,000 miles = 73.68% [79.12% - (3.4% * (8/5))]

--- End Of Life (EOL) at 70% ---

Year 5 : 60,000 miles = 68.24% [73.68% - (3.4% * (8/5))]
Year10 :120,000miles= 41.04% [68.24% - 5(3.4% * (8/5))]

Note that year five ends at 68.24%, not 76%, for that average driver. Counting on CarWings to provide them with averages AFTER they produced the car won't stand up in court. There's no requirement for you to participate (hit OK every time), and they already admit that 50 cars (presumably on dealer's lots) aren't participating. Naturally, they just average it all in.

Obviously, the 5 and 10 year data is for entertainment. After 70%, at some point, the battery degradation should accelerate like it did in the first year, all the way to completely dead. That makes me question the EOL scenarios where a wind farm battery storage might want these.

I would say that those EOL batteries are worth more as cores for remanufactured LEAF batteries than really short lived wind farm storage.

 

[leafwing]

Well, I have been waiting for this day, the dreaded second bar loss . I had been losing range lately and thought this might be it :shock: . 1 capacity bar loss at 12 months/9500 miles and 2nd bar loss toady at 10250miles/14 months. :x To Mr. Palmer, none of it freeway and inbetween his 7500 mile and the national avg of 12500 miles. :?:
P.S. still in the 100's here although we will be getting a break this week
P.S.S. putting in the emoticons does help!

I'm sorry for your loss.
I was expecting to lose the second bar at any time, but mild weather helped to delay its disappearance. I'm getting 3 to 4 miles out of the 9th bar. The temp bar went down to 5 bars in five months, but it is back when the temp. increased from 72 to 85.