CHAdeMO might not be U.S. standard?

[SanDust]

I'm not seeing any reason why CHAdeMO should be adopted as a standard. What makes it superior? Seems that Nissan and Mitsubishi decided to forego using a standards body, developed their own standard, and are now trying to force their standard down everyone else's throat. Nothing wrong with that as a business practice, and maybe they didn't think they had a choice since an official standards body involves many players and moves slowly, but it's good for the EV community in the long term that other companies are insisting that the standard be vetted. Just on the surface one plug is obviously superior to two, and the history of standards teaches that while a standards body doesn't move swiftly, what emerges is invariably superior and more flexible than what emerges from a proprietary approach.

It's not as if CHAdeMO will be the first orphaned charging standard. Just as Tesla owners can retrofit their chargers to fit the J1772 connector, so Leaf owners will be able to retrofit theirs DC chargers.

 

[Packet]

I'm not seeing any reason why CHAdeMO should be adopted as a standard. What makes it superior?

CHAdeMO is already in use. No matter what other flaws it might have, no matter what possibilities there might be in the future, the "it's already here now, today, and so we can use it" shouldn't be underestimated.

As an engineer who's done both software and hardware stuff, often times the first-to-market becomes a de facto standard. Look at eReaders, for instance, and how the Mobipocket format -- which is derived from outdated PalmOS database files! -- became a de-facto eBook standard because, as horrible as Mobipocket was, no one else had a better standard. So everyone else just started implementing it. It took a very, very long time for another competitor (created by a standards body) to show up in use by more than one eReader company, in the form of ePub. And even with ePub's growing popularity, Mobipocket's still clinging to life as a widely-used fallback format.

If CHAdeMO doesn't make it for widespread adoption, no doubt we can retrofit the LEAFs as Tesla folks have for J-plugs. But it may well still make it just by virtue of already being /here/, which already gives it a leg up on other standards.

 

[SanDust]

CHAdeMO is already in use. No matter what other flaws it might have, no matter what possibilities there might be in the future, the "it's already here now, today, and so we can use it" shouldn't be underestimated.

Before 802.11 was developed as a standard we had many different proprietary standards for wireless networking. Continuing to use these "because they were available" rather than developing 802.11 would not have worked out well.

Using a charging standard based on a single company's or several companies' patented technology is nothing but a recipe for an inferior standard and endless patent litigation. Much better to adopt a standard through an open and transparent process where all the participants have to agree to contribute their IP. As for being "right here right now", there are probably more Tesla charging stations than CHAdeMO chargers. Why not adopt that as the standard? The fact is that next year there will be a standard, 2013 MY Leafs and all other EVs will be able to use it, and there won't be any "need" to use CHAdeMO. My car won't support it but I'll be OK with that, just as I was OK that my proprietary networking equipment didn't support 802.11. If you want to be an early adopter then you have to be prepared for some bumps in the road, and one of the expected bumps will be orphaned equipment.

 

[GeorgeParrott]

First, CHAdeMO is the "national standard" in Japan, and there are actually over 600 such charge stations already installed there.

Second, there IS a good chance we will see many more CHAdeMO stations online in the US in a very few months. Oregon has clear plans and installation schedules to bring as many as 30 more between Southern Oregon and Portland by the "end of the year."

In the Houston area 25 DC quick charge stations (CHAdeMO) will be online by the end of the year and another 35 such stations around the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

So, there is a small chance, as several note, that the number of CHAdeMO stations could "tip the balance" for a final US standard, BUT, according to my information from several of the power companies putting these stations in, it is EASY for them to swap the CHAdeMO handle and software programming to another physical interface format. So they don't consider committing to the CHAdeMO format for early installations such an expensive "risk."

For us, as vehicle owners, paying for CHAdeMO, as many of us have, could turn out to be a "poor investment." The standard adopted, according to my sources, is leaning strongly to a SAE format and NOT CHAdeMO.

So, we won't know for sure, and until the U.S. standards committee makes a final, official, and formal decision. As has been noted, we "early adopters" enjoy (premature) benefits, but often do pay a $$$ for that early access.

Now public protests, letters, etc. probably couldn't hurt, and that was in my mind when I wrote the piece that started this thread.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Other Quick Charge standards weren't and still aren't ready, including the connector. So in some sense, they didn't have much of a choice. They could have tried to contribute to the SAE standards committee so they could get to a draft standard and implement that, since the apporved released standard would take 6 months if not years more. But there's a substantial risk in that, they could spend a lot of time and energy trying to accelerate the SAE standard, and in the end, still not even have a draft standard and no Quick Charge if htey bet on the standard alone. ChaDemo had products on the market in commercial use. Any SAE standard did not have products on the market and still doesn't because there's no released SAE Quick Charge standard yet.

They are saying that ChaDemo Quick Charge stations should be convertible to the standard when it comes out. I don't know what that will mean for the QC port in our LEAFs. Maybe they can put two connectors on the QC stations - ChaDemo and some future, yet to be released SAE standard.

Other relevant MNL threads:
The controversy in fast charging for electric vehicles
Level 3 Charging Updates - SAE Meetings

There are advantages to a single charge port / inlet that supports both J1772 and Quick Charge in the same connector - simpler body panels, one port for consumers to plug in. One of the disadvantages of the single connectotr or advantage of two connectors is that the conductors (wires) to carry the very high power of the Quick Charge are bulky and heavy, so you may want to locate the Quick Charge port close to the battery pack in the vehicle to minimize the weight and space for the wiring.

And to repeat yet again, ChaDemo is a standard in use, internationally, today with products available and in commercial use. A US SAE standard still appears to be a couple years away, at best. Nissan had no choice - for the intial LEAF, and still true today - it's ChaDemo Quick Charge or nothing! There is no US or SAE Quick Charge standard yet! Mind you, quick charging had prototpes and activity 10 years ago with the rollouts of the EV1, Honda EV Plus, Toyota RAV4 EV etc. Most drivers didn't really need it very often, so iit never caught critical mass. But all the consideratons of cost, communications, standards were evident then and the SAE could have been pro-active. But the SAE is largely US Automakers, and SURPRISE!, they are not innovators in Quick Charge infrastructure which is a direct threat fo gasoline cars for long range trips in a single day.

In short, the SAE has screwed up by dragging their heels on a Quick Charge standard.

If they had something, Tesla might have used it for the Tesla roadster years ago in 2008 with it's 244 mile EPA combined range[url]. (2006 - 2007 to make their design cycle)

George Parrott May 13th, 2011
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1059953_u-s-carmakers-to-japan-dont-need-your-stinkin-fast-charge

As of this month, only a single functional CHAdeMO charger exists anywhere in the United States. It's in Portland, Oregon, as reported by Rick Durst of Portland Gas & Electric.

But in Japan, the CHAdeMO format is a national standard. More than 130 such recharging stations already have been installed (as shown on Google Maps for Japan), while the U.S. is still debating the adoption of a final quick-charge (or L3) format.

According to Adam Egbert of California electric utility Pacific Gas & Electric, the Underwriter's Laboratory has not yet certified the CHAdeMO charging station as an approved piece of hardware.

That's why the second such charging station in the country, in Vacaville, California, has been taken off-line by PG&E, which installed it just a few months ago as part of an early "test program."

Yesterday, Craig Childers of the California Air Resources Board (CARB), said it appears that the U.S. is strongly leaning toward adopting a non-CHAdeMO charge format quick charging electric and other plug-in vehicles.

That format will be based on an SAE recommendation that provides for a single, multi-function, interface built into the car, rather than the two separate plugs now present when a car has both the CHAdeMO and J-1772 connectors.

"Automotive companies are lobbying for only one opening for powering the car," Childers said, "to allow for cleaner design."

The SAE format has a J-1772 connector embedded in the center of a slightly larger array of input pins which would all be enclosed by the fast charge handle surround. It would provide the same 30-minute recharge to 80 percent of battery capacity.

While this is not yet a "done deal," according to Childers, it would mean that early CHAdeMO adopters would have to hope that their automaker would offer a retrofit for their vehicles if the new standard comes to pass.

By Nick Chambers · January 29, 2011
http://www.plugincars.com/ford-focus-electric-likely-wont-support-dc-fast-charging-launch-106739.html

Right now there is only one DC fast charging standard available for companies to adopt—a largely Japanese-led effort called CHAdeMO. By the time the Ford Focus Electric hits the market there will likely be about 400 CHAdeMO-compliant DC fast charging stations scattered throughout the early launch markets of the EV Project.

So great, you might think, DC fast charging seems really promising, let's just get a move on... but you'd be wrong. The Society for Automotive Engineers (SAE), the largest automotive standards organization in the U.S., has been working on its own DC fast charging standards for quite some time now and has yet to come to a conclusion about what standard it will use. The organization is being pulled from competing directions and at this point it doesn't look promising that a standard will be approved anytime soon. The latest news is that the committee at SAE in charge of these standards wants to develop a completely new standard that incorporates both Level 2 and DC fast charging into the same plug format—which could take years.

It is this indecision on the SAE's part that seems to be the deciding factor in the lack of DC fast charging support in the first generation Focus Electric. ... "Fast charge will not be included on the Focus Electric until an industry standard has been set by SAE. Once an approved/accepted standard is in place, we will work on getting the car ready for [it]. [Said Pierce]"

What this implies is that Ford doesn't think the CHAdeMO standard is either approved or accepted. But both Nissan and Mitsubishi have incorporated it fully into their product strategies, and as I indicated above, by the time the Focus Electric comes to market there will likely be 400 CHAdeMO-compliant charging stations across the US—and because most of them are part of the EV Project, the US government is funding the installation of a few hundred. Other states, and many large municipalities, are installing them by the dozens as well.

The fact that the SAE is dragging its heels on the DC fast charging topic is what drove everybody else to go with CHAdeMO in the first place. In the end SAE will likely be forced to adopt CHAdeMO anyways and it seems that a company like Ford is shooting itself in the foot by not supporting it from the get go.

By Tim Stevens posted Jan 31st 2011
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/31/ford-focus-electric-unlikely-to-support-dc-quick-charging-slowe/

At its unveiling at CES, Ford missed no opportunity to talk up the ability of its Focus Electric to charge in half the time of the Nissan Leaf when connected to a Level 2 (220 - 240V) charger, of the sort that Best Buy will gladly install for you for just $1,499. Three to four hours is all it should take, indeed impressive compared to the eight hours the Leaf needs at the same voltage. However, the story doesn't end there, as the Leaf has another trick up its sleeve: DC fast-charging via the CHAdeMO standard. That gives 80 miles of range in just 30 minutes and, while not a global standard yet, it's certainly trying to be. The SAE is working on its own DC quick-charger standard, and that's the pony Ford is looking to back, saying:

Fast charge will not be included on the Focus Electric until an industry standard has been set by SAE. Once an approved/accepted standard is in place, we will work on getting the car ready for [it].
That leaves us with two questions. First, will the SAE get its standard finalized before Ford gets the Focus Electric finalized? Second, will the SAE standard be compatible with the Japanese CHAdeMO standard? Sadly, our magic eight ball is not giving us much hope on either account.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

It is totally STUPID to NOT have a world-wide standard. If the US standards committee insists upon a NA-only standard, for NO good technical reason, JUST to make it so that I cannot easily take my car to Europe, I will try to ignore their suggested standard and never again buy one of their products.

With the proposed "US" standard, and a different World standard, then ALL manufacturers will be forced to design their cars for TWO interfaces ... a real WASTE of resources.

If I had a vote (instead of a closed GM-run committee), I would vote NO, by reason of sanity.

Yes and can you get the US to also switch to the metric system while you are at it?
The whole thing is an American SNAFU.

Uh oh... now you got me started on the US conversion to the metric System! I acquiesced to this US stupidity long ago, but now you've reminded me! An excellent example of how bass-ackwards the US is sometimes. Especially now that many machine tools are commputer controlled and the switch to metric for such mcahines is the puch of a button. I think the biggest reason we have not changed is that US Car companies and a few other industries are clinging to the English system as a protectionist trade barrier to protect US products, though in this day and age it achieves the opposite - most of our parts come from suppliers in metric countries, so it only drives up parts costs making US products more expensive. Companies in other countries will absorb the cost of being english compliant when they have to to access US markets. And some won't - we have foreign cars that are metric and US auto shops and many homeowners have the added expenxe - only in the US - to have two sets of tools - US and metric! Man, every country has got something they do really backwards, and the English system in the US is one of them! And admittedly, there are costs to the US for completing the transition to the metric system (as I said many auto mechanics, homeowners, etc. are in both worlds), the costs to do so are lower than ever and the benefits ultimately far outweight the costs in the long term 10 year view.

 

[garygid]

What are Mexico and Canada doing for Quick-Charging standards?

 

[Spies]

Yes and can you get the US to also switch to the metric system while you are at it?

Amen, brother! Somewhat off topic but anytime anyone mentions international let alone american standards I think how the United States along with Myanmar (Burma) and Liberia are the only developed countries not using the International System of Units.

Looks like ElectricVehicle beat me to it!

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Amen, brother! Somewhat off topic but anytime anyone mentions international let alone american standards I think how the United States along with Myanmar (Burma) and Liberia are the only developed countries not using the International System of Units.

Looks like ElectricVehicle beat me to it!

Nice image! Of course ElectricVehicle is way ahead of GasVehicle !! Thanks (Though we still need plugin hybrid gas vehicle to complement ElectricVehicle for differing requirments.)

 

[smkettner]

[......and US auto shops and many homeowners have the added expenxe - only in the US - to have two sets of tools - US and metric! Man, every country has got something they do really backwards, and the English system in the US is one of them! And admittedly, there are costs to the US for completing the transition to the metric system (as I said many auto mechanics, homeowners, etc. are in both worlds), the costs to do so are lower than ever and the benefits ultimately far outweight the costs in the long term 10 year view.

Even the "metric" used by the US automakers is what I call American Metric. Japan uses 8, 10, 12, 14, 17 mm wrenches. US has a tendency to use 9, 11, 13, 15, 18mm stuff. This is because they do not really adopt the world standard. Americans must convert everything. They look at a 1/2" hex head and convert it to 13mm because that is the closest measure. It is like having a language dictionary in your pocket so you can claim you speak the language. So in reality we need three sets of freaking tools. The only people that make out are Sears and Snap-On selling obscure sets with every single size many of which are rarely if ever used. But as a pro you need them all because you need to get the job done today. :evil:

OK I am now waaaaaay off topic. I will stop my rant.

 

[Yanquetino]

The engineers at Mitsubishi and Nissan designed, built prototypes, thoroughly tested, revised, and finally brought to market their EVs during the last several years, with fast charge capabilities included from the beginning. Yet in all that time a handful of SAE engineers couldn't sit down and design a standard plug until now? Something about this smells mighty fishy-oil to me.

 

[Packet]

Not fishy so much as inefficient. I expect anyone who's ever been on an IETF task force, or a standards body of any form, can probably attest from firsthand experience that "design by standards committee" takes quite a bit longer than just having one or two companies make something and then toss the finished specs at others.

 

[smkettner]

Unless they find a true flaw or gaping leap of improvement to be made there is nothing really to discuss IMO.
Just use what exists, don't reinvent the wheel just because you can.

 

[davewill]

Not fishy so much as inefficient. I expect anyone who's ever been on an IETF task force, or a standards body of any form, can probably attest from firsthand experience that "design by standards committee" takes quite a bit longer than just having one or two companies make something and then toss the finished specs at others.

I think the best we can hope for is that their inefficiency continues until there are too many CHAdeMO units installed for them to have any hope of influencing the market. There's already little chance of a different standard taking root in Japan, and the UK is moving, too.

 

[garygid]

It would seem that the whole US automotive industry is based on re-inventing the wheel, AND the car, about once a WEEK (about 50 new models a year)!

 

[walterbays]

Not fishy so much as inefficient. I expect anyone who's ever been on an IETF task force, or a standards body of any form, can probably attest from firsthand experience that "design by standards committee" takes quite a bit longer than just having one or two companies make something and then toss the finished specs at others.

Certainly. But CHAdeMO is hardly one or two companies. It is an industry consortium of 135 companies from 19 countries. Even if some members wield much greater influence (e.g. TEPCO) getting a standard through such a consortium is no quick and simple task, even if it's easier than getting it through one of the formal standards organizations.

CHAdeMO members include: Bosch and Siemens (Germany); ABB (Switzerland); AeroVironment, Better Place, Ecotality, and General Electric (USA); Daihatsu, Hitachi, Honda, Isuzu, Komatsu, Mitsubishi, NEC, NTT, Sanyo, Seiko, Sumitomo, Suzuki, Toshiba, Toyota, Yokogawa, and the University of Tokyo (Japan).

CHAdeMO is to BluRay as SAE is to HD-DVD as Nissan is to Sony. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_definition_optical_disc_format_war

 

[DarkStar]

[...]CHAdeMO is hardly one or two companies. It is an industry consortium of 135 companies from 19 countries.

They even provide an awesome list on their website:

http://chademo.com/pdf/memberlist.pdf

Some U.S. notables:

AeroVironment
Aker Wade
Better Place Global
Broadband TeleCom Power, Inc.
Ecotality North America(eTec)
EV4 Oregon LC
General Electric International, Inc.
Magna Ecar USA
NRG
PG&E
Portland General Electric

 

[Packet]

Certainly. But CHAdeMO is hardly one or two companies. It is an industry consortium of 135 companies from 19 countries. Even if some members wield much greater influence (e.g. TEPCO) getting a standard through such a consortium is no quick and simple task, even if it's easier than getting it through one of the formal standards organizations.

My comment was meant more in reply to Yanquentino going, "How come Nissan and Mitsubishi (individual companies) can develop, prototype, test and ship electric cars in less time than SAE (a whole mess of companies) can come up with a Level 3 quick-charge standard?"

With regards to your comment, we're in agreement: CHAdeMO produced a standard before SAE in no small part because they /started/ earlier, not because it was a one-or-two-company thing.

 

[TRONZ]

As mentioned by ElectricVehicle, L3 is THE replacement for the gas pump. This is the core issue and starting point for any discussions about Quick Charging.

IMHO, the SAE "thinking about" their standard is irrelevant. Do you know how many architecture students I failed during finals because they told me they were still "thinking about their projects"? ALL of them! At a time when you should be producing results and product, just "thinking about it" is failure! The Japanese standard (global?) will win by default simply because they are the only team that has shown up to play. Snap out of it people. A unique SAE (US Auto/Oil) "standard" is a non-event because it is ONLY intended to be "thought about".

What really needs to be adressed is why the lone CA L3 was already taken "off line".

 

[ElectricVehicle]

IMHO, the SAE "thinking about" their standard is irrelevant. Do you know how many architecture students I failed during finals because they told me they were still "thinking about their projects"? ALL of them! At a time when you should be producing results and product, just "thinking about it" is failure! The Japanese standard (global?) will win by default simply because they are the only team that has shown up to play. Snap out of it people. A unique SAE (US Auto/Oil) "standard" is a non-event because it is ONLY intended to be "thought about".

As I read your post, it gave me a Cynical tickle - The U.S. stands to become the China of Quick Charging (though not as inexpensive) - China works hard to roll it's own standards, deliberately incompatible with the rest of the world so it can have it's own, avoid royalties and protect it's markets from international trade. It's not clear that these China standards end up saving money over paying royalties. And if they embraced and helped devolop international standards, it would be less exoensive for everyone. Let's see what other country is doing similar tactics around L3 charger... Hmmm.... Lemmeee think... OH! It's the US and SAE. Beautiful!

There are some considerable challenges to a single international standard for EV charging at Level 1, Level 2 and Quick Charge - single phase vs. 3 phase requires one more power pin, there's Level 1 power of 100V, 120V, 240V, etc. depending on the country. There's 50Hz vs. 60Hz, etc. But modern electrionics has cost effective solutions to these issues (Phil's 120/240V EVSE!!! with auto-ranging power supply.) Maybe a US car might charge on one of 3 phases if it's in Europe on a Level 2 EVSE, but an international standard - ESPECIALLY for Quick Charge which is a high power DC interface to the vehicle that is unaffected by the type of mains power supplied to the DC quick charger... Well, I think you see my point, rant... rant... drivel... where did I put my straight jacket... Driving me nuts!