Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[scottf200]

To be clear, I don't think any Volt owner does not think we are losing physical battery capacity at some rate. I've replaced batteries in numerous rechargeable devices I've owned and read many articles. Certainly GM is dynamically trying to make the Volt owners initial driving years (5'ish?) consistent.

Really, Scott??!!

Because about five months ago you stated that you thought that idea is "sort of a myth that likes to get repeated here on MNL":

I've started following the GM-Volt forum for the last 3 months and I get the impression that nobody over there knows whether GM made plan to eat into the extra capacity over the long run or not to preserve the advertised range of about 40 miles.

Yes, it is sort of a myth that likes to gets repeated here on MNL. There was a comment made in an interview to that affect as I recall but nothing remotely official. After 21K EV miles in my 2011 it has not appeared to lose any range. 30 winter, 45 summer (2011/12-EPA 35, 2013-EPA 38).

Now you state the GM is "certainly" doing this. What changed your mind?

Several reasons and some threads on GM-Volt but a main one is that I'm almost through my 3rd summer (late Aug'13 @24K EV miles) with my 2011 Volt and it seems my EV range in the morning is slightly higher (1-3 miles so like 48 consistently) than the 2011 and 2012 summer. After my first several months with the the car I learned how to drive it efficiently. I would fully expect it to be dropping slowly and slower than the LEAFs because it is much better managed. I've been watching various threads here at MNL where people are using the Android based tools to literally watch their battery degrade weekly even in good climate areas. Chemically they are supposed to be similar.

 

[RegGuheert]

Several reasons and some threads on GM-Volt but a main one is that I'm almost through my 3rd summer (late Aug'13 @24K EV miles) with my 2011 Volt and it seems my EV range in the morning is slightly higher (1-3 miles so like 48 consistently) than the 2011 and 2012 summer. After my first several months with the the car I learned how to drive it efficiently. I would fully expect it to be dropping slowly and slower than the LEAFs because it is much better managed. I've been watching various threads here at MNL where people are using the Android based tools to literally watch their battery degrade weekly even in good climate areas. Chemically they are supposed to be similar.

Thanks for the update, Scott!

I find it interesting that your EV miles appears to be going UP! That's a bit counterintuitive to me, too. One possibility that jumps to mind is that perhaps GM is adjusting the available SOC based on battery "health" versus just battery capacity. What I mean is that they may be offering up a bit more capacity to make up for increases in resistance. But since you guys in the Volt can (assumedly) see how much available capacity you have, I would expect that would be obvious.

Another possibility is that it has been cooler here this summer. Perhaps the same is true in Chicago? Maybe that has an effect such as less energy used for climate control, etc?

We're only on our second summer in the 2011 demo LEAF we purchased in Mar 2012 and I will say we have made a major adjustment from last summer: we charge only enough to return home with about 30%-or-so SOC. That's not as hard to achieve as it sounds, particularly given the slow charging rate. I also am finding that I am setting new economy records using our other car, an HCH with an 11.5 YO battery pack. All that to say that our driving style is still changing (improving) after about a year and a half.

With the smaller available capacity in the Volt, there is less battery babying that can be done in a Volt other than simply charging right before you leave. It sounds like you drive your entire available charge every morning. Is that the case? If so, then your battery has the benefit of spending nearly all of its existence in the 20% SOC range. That, along with the climate where you live, should help you to achieve long battery life.

May our batteries live long and prosper!

 

[LKK]

One possible explanation for increased range is the rolling resistance might have gone down. This might be the result of mechanical parts like bearing and bushings wearing in, or tire wear. Magazines have found that it's not unusual for a vehicle to show better performance and fuel economy after 20 or 30 thousand miles of use.

 

[scottf200]

Several reasons and some threads on GM-Volt but a main one is that I'm almost through my 3rd summer (late Aug'13 @24K EV miles) with my 2011 Volt and it seems my EV range in the morning is slightly higher (1-3 miles so like 48 consistently) than the 2011 and 2012 summer. After my first several months with the the car I learned how to drive it efficiently. I would fully expect it to be dropping slowly and slower than the LEAFs because it is much better managed. I've been watching various threads here at MNL where people are using the Android based tools to literally watch their battery degrade weekly even in good climate areas. Chemically they are supposed to be similar.

Thanks for the update, Scott!

I find it interesting that your EV miles appears to be going UP! That's a bit counterintuitive to me, too. One possibility that jumps to mind is that perhaps GM is adjusting the available SOC based on battery "health" versus just battery capacity. What I mean is that they may be offering up a bit more capacity to make up for increases in resistance. But since you guys in the Volt can (assumedly) see how much available capacity you have, I would expect that would be obvious.

Another possibility is that it has been cooler here this summer. Perhaps the same is true in Chicago? Maybe that has an effect such as less energy used for climate control, etc?

We're only on our second summer in the 2011 demo LEAF we purchased in Mar 2012 and I will say we have made a major adjustment from last summer: we charge only enough to return home with about 30%-or-so SOC. That's not as hard to achieve as it sounds, particularly given the slow charging rate. I also am finding that I am setting new economy records using our other car, an HCH with an 11.5 YO battery pack. All that to say that our driving style is still changing (improving) after about a year and a half.

With the smaller available capacity in the Volt, there is less battery babying that can be done in a Volt other than simply charging right before you leave. It sounds like you drive your entire available charge every morning. Is that the case? If so, then your battery has the benefit of spending nearly all of its existence in the 20% SOC range. That, along with the climate where you live, should help you to achieve long battery life.

May our batteries live long and prosper!

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I stewed on it. You are right that it has been a milder summer here in IL. As well I moved to a new building for work and I am two levels down from the sun. I think I was there part of last summer tho. My A/C usage is fairly consistent at EOC, 75F, 2 level fan speed. I adjust it after playing sports and have plenty of juice to get home.

My work is 22ish miles RT but a 2-3 days a week I drive over 40. My VoltStats.NET data is here (and in my sig I think): http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/11#dailyTab" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There does seem to be some benefit to running your battery down (20%-22% SOC) in the Volt. I'm sure you will find this story of a family with two Volts that were driven very differently but had different EV ranges. Experiments commenced. http://gm-volt.com/2013/02/26/a-tale-of-two-volts-the-summary/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LKK may have a point that the car is pretty broken in now and perhaps my driving habits are subconsciously tuned.

Statistically my slightly higher EV range is easily within a margin of error (taking into account the above - temp, driving style, parking, etc). I drove 300 miles this weekend and the past two days I'm at 45 EV miles on the battery again (vs 48 that I've been seeing routinely). Even if my range has not gone up I'm surprised it has not gone down after 3 summers especially seeing the threads here on degradation. If I was a betting person I'd say my capacity window has opened slightly (100-200 Wh) based on some multi-variable algorithm.

 

[joeaux]

As far as I can tell GM never had or has any plans to open up more of the 10.5 KW or so we get from our battery.

Just to be clear here, I don't think anyone has suggested that GM might make more than 10.5 kWh available to the users in the 2011 Volt. The idea is that GM must increase the SOC range of the battery as the battery degrades to be able to provide that 10.5 kWh. So whereas a new 2011 Volt may use the SOC range of 20-85%, a Volt with a degraded battery may use an SOC range of, say, 15-90% and eventually will have to open up the SOC range to some limits only GM knows. At that point, the range of the vehicle will necessarily drop as further degradation occurs.

Actually no. GM states that we will lose capacity of the battery as it ages. They explicitly state it will drop to as little as 60-70 of the maximum capacity when new. I've got a video around here somewhere where the head of Volt design states it on camera. Nothing about opening up more to allow the 10.5 to be maintained either. As far as I can tell that's the same wishful thinking as getting us more than the 10.5 they designed the battery to have when new. It's all hearsay.

 

[scottf200]

As far as I can tell GM never had or has any plans to open up more of the 10.5 KW or so we get from our battery.

Just to be clear here, I don't think anyone has suggested that GM might make more than 10.5 kWh available to the users in the 2011 Volt. The idea is that GM must increase the SOC range of the battery as the battery degrades to be able to provide that 10.5 kWh. So whereas a new 2011 Volt may use the SOC range of 20-85%, a Volt with a degraded battery may use an SOC range of, say, 15-90% and eventually will have to open up the SOC range to some limits only GM knows. At that point, the range of the vehicle will necessarily drop as further degradation occurs.

Actually no. GM states that we will lose capacity of the battery as it ages. They explicitly state it will drop to as little as 60-70 of the maximum capacity when new. I've got a video around here somewhere where the head of Volt design states it on camera. Nothing about opening up more to allow the 10.5 to be maintained either. As far as I can tell that's the same wishful thinking as getting us more than the 10.5 they designed the battery to have when new. It's all hearsay.

There has long been the question of interpretation of Frank Weber's comments about getting the same performance at beginning and end of life. Indeed he is clear that battery will degrade BUT GM was *definitely* concerned about having a more consistent EV range for up to 10 years. Impressive so far.

See youtube at 38 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=S6SARzQPcRA
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=S6SARzQPcRA[/youtube]

Here is one GM-Volt thread: Battery-Performance-At-BOL-versus-EOL
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?13030-Battery-Performance-At-BOL-versus-EOL

 

[joeaux]

Huh. Interesting. Hadn't seen the Weber video before. But man that was in 2009. A long time ago in Volt/EV years. I'm like everyone else. I hope they do something. But I really doubt it. Thanks for the video Scott!

 

[LKK]

Interesting video. Some point that stuck with me are:

1. He confirms they are designing to a consistent range from beginning to end of battery life. Not starting high and degrading to a minimum, but a consistent range.

2. He talks of 10 years as the time period for the battery.

3. When asked if they plan to open the battery window to achieve this, he waffles and says there are many things we can do. What do you suppose he means by many things? That doesn't exclude opening the battery window, so this remains a possibility, but what else can be done. I can't think of anything, can you?

 

[HIOJim]

Interesting video. Some point that stuck with me are:

1. He confirms they are designing to a consistent range from beginning to end of battery life. Not starting high and degrading to a minimum, but a consistent range.

2. He talks of 10 years as the time period for the battery.

3. When asked if they plan to open the battery window to achieve this, he waffles and says there are many things we can do. What do you suppose he means by many things? That doesn't exclude opening the battery window, so this remains a possibility, but what else can be done. I can't think of anything, can you?

He might have been referring to:
- Use of their efficient TMS to keep the battery in the 'safe' temperature range
- Their design of using buffers at the top and bottom of the battery range
- Opening the battery window

 

[MrIanB]

Looking at this thread and how it has come alive in the last two weeks and the Volt forum, I think the Volt sales for August 2013 will show a strong rebound and predict about 2k plus in sales.

Ian B

 

[GRA]

IMO reliable range in a wide variety of conditions for a fair number of years is more important for a commute car than max. range in ideal conditions when new.

As to Volt sales improving, I expect they will, what with the price drop on the 2014s and dealers trying to clear out their inventory of 2013s. I won't be surprised if we start hearing some 2013 Volts go for $32-33k before subsidies, which after Fed. and Ca. subsidies would put them within spitting distance of Cruze Ecos.

 

[SanDust]

I'll try to make my point simple enough for you "smart enough" people to do the math :roll: and perhaps give you insight into my criticism of your statement.
Both a Volt and a LEAF have the same amount of km/miles on the odometer, which one will have more electric km/miles on the odometer: The 100% Electric Car or the Plug-In Hybrid Car?

Sometime the hurdle is to ask the right question. By definition the Leaf will have 100% EV miles. The Volt can't beat that. However, the pertinent question is whether the Volt or the Leaf will put on more EV miles in a given period of time. Both basic math and the results of the Ecotality study tell us the Volt will have more miles AND more EV miles.

The irony is that all those folks who think the Leaf is superior because it's a "Zero Emission Vehicle" will actually be driving 20% fewer "Zero Emission Miles" than they would driving a Volt.

Note that what set this off was my more or less poking fun at posters who were saying the Volt wasn't an EV. Well it might not be an EV but you get more EV miles out of it than you would an EV like the Leaf. I didn't reference the quote about a rose by any other name smelling as sweet but I assumed I didn't need to.

 

[SanDust]

Interesting video. Some point that stuck with me are:

1. He confirms they are designing to a consistent range from beginning to end of battery life. Not starting high and degrading to a minimum, but a consistent range.

2. He talks of 10 years as the time period for the battery.

3. When asked if they plan to open the battery window to achieve this, he waffles and says there are many things we can do. What do you suppose he means by many things? That doesn't exclude opening the battery window, so this remains a possibility, but what else can be done. I can't think of anything, can you?

1. I think what he says is that customers won't accept different performance. Given the Leaf battery issues I think he was right.
2. I think they've moved that to 12 years in hot places like AZ to 15 years in more temperature locations. Also keep in mind that battery EOL is 23%. Even after EOL you should have electric range left, just not as much as before and perhaps you won't get the same performance.
3. He was talking about performance. You could offset power loss by increasing the voltage.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

3. He was talking about performance. You could offset power loss by increasing the voltage.

What? How exactly do you increase voltage?

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Sometime the hurdle is to ask the right question. By definition the Leaf will have 100% EV miles. The Volt can't beat that. However, the pertinent question is whether the Volt or the Leaf will put on more EV miles in a given period of time. Both basic math and the results of the Ecotality study tell us the Volt will have more miles AND more EV miles.

The irony is that all those folks who think the Leaf is superior because it's a "Zero Emission Vehicle" will actually be driving 20% fewer "Zero Emission Miles" than they would driving a Volt.

I see no "basic math" to justify a 38 mile range hybrid having more EV miles than a 73 mile EV.

Can you provide a link to a study showing more EV miles in the hybrid Volt vs. the EV Leaf?

In my case I'd be driving 50% gas if I had a Volt whereas I'm driving 100% electric with the Leaf. One size doesn't fit all.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Looking at this thread and how it has come alive in the last two weeks and the Volt forum, I think the Volt sales for August 2013 will show a strong rebound and predict about 2k plus in sales.

Its primarily a few folks who keep posting on MNL about the Volt, some of whom don't even own a Leaf, including a moderator from gm-volt.com

 

[Stoaty]

The irony is that all those folks who think the Leaf is superior because it's a "Zero Emission Vehicle" will actually be driving 20% fewer "Zero Emission Miles" than they would driving a Volt.

Perhaps true for some folks, but not true for me. If I had a Volt, I would take it on the exact same trips I now take my Leaf on (up to 50 miles without recharging), so the Leaf would always have more "zero emission miles". The Volt won't work for me for the few long trips that need an ICE (it isn't big enough to hold 4 people, backpacks, other gear); for those trips I take the Camry. That's why I bought the Leaf instead of the Volt. A bonus is that the Leaf was a lot cheaper, and I don't have to maintain a second internal combustion engine.

 

[MrIanB]

Looking at this thread and how it has come alive in the last two weeks and the Volt forum, I think the Volt sales for August 2013 will show a strong rebound and predict about 2k plus in sales.

Its primarily a few folks who keep posting on MNL about the Volt, some of whom don't even own a Leaf, including a moderator from gm-volt.com

I was wondering what triggered this rash of comments in a otherwise slow thread. I keep jumping between this site and the Volt site since I have a 2011 Leaf SL with all capacity bars and 5,300 miles and a 2013 Volt I picked up as a demo in April 2013, which had 2,300 miles when I got it and now has 5,700 miles. Love both of them for what each has to offer.

Ian B

 

[planet4ever]

The irony is that all those folks who think the Leaf is superior because it's a "Zero Emission Vehicle" will actually be driving 20% fewer "Zero Emission Miles" than they would driving a Volt.

Perhaps true for some folks, but not true for me

I agree. The balance can go either way, but the point is that despite the apparent "impossibility" of the math, it does happen for some people. The key is, of course, that it can only happen if you would drive the Volt more miles/year than you would drive the LEAF. I'm in the rather odd position that I would probably drive a Volt fewer miles than I drive my LEAF. My wife and I are retired, and we like to go for 40-50 mile "joy rides" just because we can do it without using any gasoline. If I had a Volt we would make those rides somewhat shorter.

Ray

 

[jhm614]

I see no "basic math" to justify a 38 mile range hybrid having more EV miles than a 73 mile EV.

Can you provide a link to a study showing more EV miles in the hybrid Volt vs. the EV Leaf?

In my case I'd be driving 50% gas if I had a Volt whereas I'm driving 100% electric with the Leaf. One size doesn't fit all.

One size doesn't fit all and it's definitely counter intuitive - but based on these two charts describing the average driver, it is possible that Volt could return more EV miles, assuming that the driver makes the all the trips listed in the chart.

Meaning that 1.75% of the Leaf driver's trips would be over 62.5 miles and would require something other than the Leaf, presumably an ICE vehicle. This case only comes into play when the average driver has low annual mileage -- for instance traveling 3,300 miles over 200 driving days or 4,950 miles over 300 driving days. So basically for drivers that cover more than 5,000 miles a year, a Leaf provides better EV performance.

If we assume the effective range of the Leaf to be 50 miles, 2.3% of the Leaf driver's trips are out of range and the mileage limit goes up a little. Still, even with just a 50 mile range, for anything over 7,300 miles in 300 driving days (or 4,900 miles in 200 driving days), the Leaf delivers more EV miles than the Volt.

I have a spreadsheet to back this up and if I start feeling adventurous, I will try to write up the explanation.