Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[evnow]

To me and I'm sure many others, it appears you and others are just bashing GM based on questionable/biased/limited_understanding_data for amusement of yourselves. Can't have any reasonable discussion without a picture of an EV1 showing up, several metoo post, or some other lame joke.

Several problems with your post.
- Show me my posts where I've made jokes on EV1 etc. So you are plain wrong. If you are talking about others posts - no, we don't censor people here. BTW, what aren't there lame anti-EV posts at gm-volt.com ?
- Second unlike gm-volt.com we don't BAN people who write things we don't like. Yes, I have been banned for no particular reason in your gm-volt.com - and they refuse to tell me why as well. Anyway, no loss to me.
- We understand Volt very well here. As you may know, I'd been following Lyle's posts as long as you have been.

So, I think you should change your tone if you are to be taken seriously. In either case, you can't dictate what we talk about here. Talking about GM and how it has been beating up and spreading FUD about EVs is a critical part of gaurding the plug-in movement. While I want Volt to do well, I'll examine GM's statements closely and state where I find big holes.

It is interesting that you attacked the messenger (me) instead of saying anything about the big holes in GM's statement.

 

[scottf200]

Oh the shame. I used 0.17 gallons of gas today to go 57.2 miles (temp were modest). Went 48.6 miles on the battery then 8.6 miles on the gas_generator.
In my defense I had to run unexpected errands after work THEN on my way home from a sporting event there was a major detour because of road construction.
Of course everyone will point out if I was driving a 70ish mile BEV I still would have made it today.
BUT the point is I was planning on going certain distance today and a couple of unexpected things came up. Had a back up source of energy.
(FYI my MPH ranged from 30-50 thru suburbia. My highest this summer was 50 miles on the battery alone which included highway miles. Typically got 45 all summer using A/C.)

FYI this is a 2011 Volt display. On the 2012s they include kWh used. Yes, I only have 201 MPGused lifetime since I flew to NY to buy it, vacationed, then drove it home to IL.
When talking about my miles per gallon I almost always put used after it (MPGused) to clarify that is what it means. Of course, I'm using electrons from the wall for some of the miles.

 

[scottf200]

AndyH, et al., did you follow my two Volt Mountain Mode explanations here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=139751#p139751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I tried to break it down pretty simply. That was easy because it is pretty straightforward. Turn in on 15+ miles before your mountain then drive the Volt normally like any car up the mountain. That allows it to run the most efficiently with the best performance.

Various discussion about this at gm-volt forum from many real long term owners who actually use it and have experimented with it.

 

[SanDust]

We understand Volt very well here. As you may know, I'd been following Lyle's posts as long as you have been.

I certainly don't think you bash the Volt at all. I have no idea why he thought you were. So here you have an excellent point.

On the other hand, I don't think it's accurate to claim that the Volt technology is well understood on this board. To the contrary I think most people here don't have a clue how it works, and several of the posts, especially those mentioning how the Volt works just like the Escape or Prius, more or less confirm this.

 

[scottf200]

We understand Volt very well here. As you may know, I'd been following Lyle's posts as long as you have been.

I certainly don't think you bash the Volt at all. I have no idea why he thought you were. So here you have an excellent point.

On the other hand, I don't think it's accurate to claim that the Volt technology is well understood on this board. To the contrary I think most people here don't have a clue how it works, and several of the posts, especially those mentioning how the Volt works just like the Escape or Prius, more or less confirm this.

Good point about the accuracy of the claims. I'm sure there are some that have followed the Volt for quite a while in reasonable detail. I'm sure there are many others that have only modestly followed it and have just read a few of the articles on the web. Many of which are wrong regularly on the technical points. We've seen a few good technical articles.

Still when you are an *actual* owner of the vehicle you get to know the ins and outs if you are inclined to experiment AND exchange information with other owners. There in lies the best understanding. (Tesla owners understand the details of their cars better and more thoroughly than I do even tho I read about it!!). Yes, I fully understand you do not *have* to own a Volt to understand it decently but you would need to follow some of the technical articles from reputable sources (SAE, or folks that had it for an extended time of testing).

Many of my post here are not for the likes of those that have followed the volt vigorously / intently but for the more causal reader about the Volt.

I've had many response to my post (various threads) that were GM/EV1/etc jokes. I was not referring to evnow. In general I've liked his post on several forums (ford focus, gm-volt blog, etc).

 

[scottf200]

Here is another aspect of the Volt. Some audiophiles don't like anything that says Bose but many audio appreciative folks are very impressed with how the Volt's sound system works.
Personally I was into Home Theaters in a previous addiction. I have a dedicated room that took a couple years to design and put together from scratch. "Perfect" speaker angles/height, sound deadening material at different heights and reflective points. I used sound pressure meters to tune my speakers dB levels for my sweet spot, etc. I *only* say this to add some credence to the fact I like good sound. Various levels of audiophiles on the Volt forum have chimed in that they are impressed with the sound system in the Volt as well.
------
Volt Sound System - 30% smaller, 40% lighter and uses 50% less energy

Click for LARGEr image-->http://www.boston.com/business/ticker/2011/01/11/Chevrolet Volt System Illustration.JPG

http://www.boston.com/business/ticker/2011/01/chevy_volts_can.html
hxxp://caraudiomag.com/articles/bose-energy-efficient-series-sound-system-chevy-volt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; <-- dead previous link

In all the hoopla surrounding the new Chevrolet Volt not many people have discussed the type of entertainment system in the vehicle. As you might expect, you can't have the usual in an unusual car. The Bose Energy Efficient Series sound system uses a proprietary design and exclusive Bose technologies. The new sound system delivers premium high-quality audio, but is 30% smaller, 40% lighter and uses 50% less energy than automotive sound systems with comparable performance.

Bose High Efficiency Technology
The Bose Energy Efficient Series sound system features Bose switching amplification, High Motor Force speakers and proprietary control circuitry to reproduce sound at concert hall volumes, while reducing its power consumption by half. The Bose amplifier runs cooler than conventional linear amplifiers, and uses a smaller, lighter heat sink, significantly reducing its size and weight. Using exclusive control circuitry and switching technology, its energy consumption is dramatically reduced, yet it delivers eight channels of custom equalization to power the speakers: three High Motor Force woofers, one located in each front door and one integrated in the spare-tire well, two 1-inch tweeters integrated in the A-pillar; and two 4-inch neodymium mid/high-range speakers, placed in the rear doors.

Using select materials and custom design, the system delivers the performance of larger, heavier speakers. Drivers and passengers will hear musical detail throughout the frequency range, including the deep low notes required to reproduce lifelike audio.

The Bose Energy Efficient Series system comes standard on the 2011 Chevrolet Volt [and is an option on the 2012 as some folks didn't want it].

For more information visit Bose <--click me. Check out the two videos there with these graphics.
See at click me above.

.

 

[edatoakrun]

One disgruntled (republican) Chevy dealer:

I’m a Chevrolet dealer… we have a Chevy Volt on the lot, it’s been there now for four weeks. We’ve had one person come in to look at it, just to see what it actually looks like… Here’s a car that costs $45,763. I can stock that car for probably a year and then have to sell it at some ridiculous price. By the way, I just received some additional information from Chevrolet: in addition to the $7,500 [federal] tax credit, Pennsylvania is going to throw another $3,500 to anybody foolish enough to buy one of these cars, somehow giving them $11,000 of taxpayer money to buy this Volt.

When you look at this, it makes absolutely no sense. I can stock a Chevy Cruze, which is about a $17,500 car and turns every 30 to 40 days out of inventory… or I can have a Volt, which never turns and creates nothing for me on the lot except interest costs… So a lot of these things that we’re seeing going on have a tremendous economic impact on people who are being asked to stock them and sell them. There is no market for this car....

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/10/chevy-dealing-congressman-there-is-no-market-for-the-volt/#more-414608" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

The breakthrough is that the two motors are linked through the planetary gearset. When they work together the traction motor supplies the torque through the sun gear and the smaller motor supplies counter torque to the ring gear. The difference between EV and ICE mode is that in EV mode electrical power is supplied to the larger and smaller motors by the battery whereas in ICE mode mechanical power is supplied to the smaller motor by the ICE, with some of that mechanical power being used to provide counter torque and some being used to provide electrical power for the larger traction motor. In both modes the operating principle is that it's best to avoid running the traction motor at inefficient high RPMs.

Is the bolded part what's revolutionary or the rest?

Toyota's been doing this w/the power split device in the Prius since December 1997 (on the NHW10, which the US never got. The US started w/the NHW11 which began w/the 2001 model.). See http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/1010_unbolting_the_chevy_volt_to_see_how_it_ticks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://eahart.com/prius/psd/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. However, GM connected the electric motors and ICE to different elements and added 3 clutches whereas Toyota's PSD has 0 (well, at least 0 that engage and disengage).

However, I believe the design predates even Toyota's usage.

 

[scottf200]

Is the bolded part what's revolutionary or the rest? Toyota's been doing this w/the power split device in the Prius since December 1997

As the "end-user" I don't really care how they do it as long as it is as efficient as possible and is reliable. That is really what the vast majority of car drivers want and GM made this car for the masses and not for the "engineers" (of course, many early adopters are fascinated with the engineering). Seems a little pedantic that everyone is SOOO concerned about this. Like the Prius end-users care how they get good mileage!

The Prius is impressive and I see many every day driven by all types. I often point to their sales data since the first 4 years they were under 20K and then it caught on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#Sales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was watching a kick off video of the Toyota Prius Plug-In several days ago. They have to go out of all electric mode at 62 MPH then uses gas. I've read: "The current non-Plug-In Prius' top speed in electric-only mode is 35 mph" then uses gas. Yes, there are several companies that will convert your old Prius to work more like a Volt for several thousand dollars and at several top in speeds (52-75?) but I have no doubt the kW usage efficiency drops dramatically at their higher speeds. Shows how impressive GM's feat was that as great of engineers the factory/official Plug-In Prius have they had to go to gas at such a low speeds presumably because of kW usage efficency.

What seems pretty impressive with the drive train in the Volt is they managed to get four modes. The first 2 are electric only and the Volt can go up to 100 MPH just running on the battery with their engineered method and do it efficently.

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/volt/2011/how-the-2011-chevrolet-volt-works.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Four Modes of Operation for Volt's drivetrain
Let's walk through the four modes in which the 2011 Chevrolet Volt works.

Battery: Mode 1: Low-speed electric-only mode up to 70 mph. The main traction motor-generator is turning, but it can only go so fast. Here the ring gear is locked so it can't turn. The second motor-generator and the engine are disconnected and out of the picture. The main traction motor is left alone to drive the sun gear from battery power, which sets the planets in orbit. The orbit speed is sent out through the carrier and is proportional to vehicle speed.

Battery: Mode 2: High-speed electric-only mode up to top speed (100 mph) [think Europe or major USA freeways where 75 MPH/120 KMH is not unusual]. The engine remains dormant. Now the ring gear unlocks and is instead clutched to the second motor-generator, which is acting as a motor to set the ring in motion. With the sun already spinning, any rotation of the ring in the same direction will increase the overall orbit speed of the planets, which in turn increases vehicle speed beyond 70 mph.

Getting the Terms Right
GM points out that the different planetary layout used by the Toyota Prius Plug-In makes its engine come on in Mode 2. On the other hand, GM's Voltec system has three clutches, while the Prius HSD system has exactly zero.

More detailed article about the four modes of the Volt's Drivetrain:
- Mode 1: Low-speed EV Propulsion (Engine Off [yea])
- Mode 2: High-Speed EV Propulsion (Engine Off [yea])
- Mode 3: Low-speed Extended-Range Propulsion (Engine Running [yuck])
- Mode 4. High-Speed Extended-Range Propulsion (Engine Running [yuck])
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/10/chevy-volt-delivers-novel-two-motor-four-mode-extended-range-electric-drive-system-seamless-driver-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

Oh the shame. I used 0.17 gallons of gas today to go 57.2 miles (temp were modest). Went 48.6 miles on the battery then 8.6 miles on the gas_generator.
In my defense I had to run unexpected errands after work THEN on my way home from a sporting event there was a major detour because of road construction.

As a follow up to the above I wanted to show:

a) Although the Volt A/B trip odometers only show single digits of precision they are keeping track of more than one digit.
My example is my B trip had 12.1 gals on it but after using 0.17 this week it now shows 12.3.

b) I used gas this week but you can see my overall EV miles compared to gas miles (8.6) is still awful good compared to the average car. Many Volt owner are conscientious like this.

12.1 + 0.17 = 12.3

244.6 EV miles (253.2-8.6) vs 8.6 gas miles = 96.6% pure EV driving even with unexpected detour

 

[TomT]

I wanted to like the Volt and would have likely considered it (I test drove it four times), but the 35 mile EV range was just too limiting for my use... If it had a 24Kw pack at that same price point, it might have swayed my choice... That being said, in retrospect I'm very glad and happy that I went with the Leaf instead.

 

[scottf200]

I wanted to like the Volt and would have likely considered it (I test drove it four times), but the 35 mile EV range was just too limiting for my use... If it had a 24Kw pack at that same price point, it might have swayed my choice... That being said, in retrospect I'm very glad and happy that I went with the Volt [LEAF?] instead.

I assume your last sentence is "LEAF instead". That is cool. They both have their scenarios where they work great and I have nothing against the Leaf. My goal is to help folks (new to EVs or the forum or that have not looked at it in details ... understand the Volt better).

BTW, I typically got 45 EV miles most of the summer here in Chicagoland and even hit 50. I used ECO mode A/C and stayed pretty cool. Worked great. We'll see how winter does for the Leafs and the Volts.

 

[TomT]

The magic number I needed was 60 miles of real freeway driving with HVAC (charging at work is not an option). I saw no discernal change in range during our admittedly mild Southern California "winter..."

BTW, I typically got 45 EV miles most of the summer here in Chicagoland and even hit 50. I used ECO mode A/C and stayed pretty cool. Worked great. We'll see how winter does for the Leafs and the Volts.

 

[leaf561]

The magic number I needed was 60 miles of real freeway driving with HVAC (charging at work is not an option). I saw no discernal change in range during our admittedly mild Southern California "winter..."

Same here. My round trip to work is 62 miles on mostly freeway and with no option to charge at work. I drive at normal Bay Area freeway speed (70 to 75 mph) with A/C on. Usually by the time I return home, I have 17 miles left on my dashboard. I tried ECO mode and 65 mph one day and I had 34 miles left by the time I reached home.

I looked into Volt and the cost and it's benefit didn't add up. So went with LEAF and very happy with my decision.

Hard facts about **MY** LEAF:
1. Meets my daily needs
2. Costed $27K on road after Fed and CA rebates and Boardwalk discount
3. No oil change and it requires minimum maintenance
4. No visits to gas station
5. $200+ saving per month over gas after paying electric bill (do the math for 6 years)
6. With my solar panels, it just makes it more sweet
7. Free car pool sticker :lol: Can't beat this!!!

The other car I considered was Tesla Model S. I still have the reservation. With $50K + tax (after Fed rebate), for me it was a better alternative to Volt, since it gives 160 miles/charge and reasonably addresses the range anxiety issues. Also with the performance, 5+2 seater and style, it is a winner among the 3 cars.

But with LEAF costing less than 50% of Tesla Model S, it was another no brainer choice for me.

For some, Volt would be a better option based on their driving requirement. So it is a personal choice.

 

[hodad66]

That's the great thing.... so many choices becoming available......

 

[cwerdna]

Is the bolded part what's revolutionary or the rest? Toyota's been doing this w/the power split device in the Prius since December 1997

As the "end-user" I don't really care how they do it as long as it is as efficient as possible and is reliable.
...
The Prius is impressive and I see many every day driven by all types. I often point to their sales data since the first 4 years they were under 20K and then it caught on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#Sales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was watching a kick off video of the Toyota Prius Plug-In several days ago. They have to go out of all electric mode at 62 MPH then uses gas. I've read: "The current non-Plug-In Prius' top speed in electric-only mode is 35 mph" then uses gas. Yes, there are several companies that will convert your old Prius to work more like a Volt for several thousand dollars and at several top in speeds (52-75?) but I have no doubt the kW usage efficiency drops dramatically at their higher speeds. Shows how impressive GM's feat was that as great of engineers the factory/official Plug-In Prius have they had to go to gas at such a low speeds presumably because of kW usage efficency.

What seems pretty impressive with the drive train in the Volt is they managed to get four modes. The first 2 are electric only and the Volt can go up to 100 MPH just running on the battery with their engineered method and do it efficently.

As for efficiency, non-plug in 2010+ Prius (on gas) gets on the EPA tests 51 city/48 highway, 50 mpg combined vs. the Volt's (in CS mode) 35/40, 37 combined. That's 35% better combined mileage.

As for the plug-in Prius, it can go up to 62 mph on electric only, but if you're hard on the gas pedal, the ICE will kick in. As for non-plugin, the figure is wrong. On my 2nd gen it's ~40 or 41 mph (one can tell whether the ICE is on/off via a tach, like that on my ScanGauge II). On the 3rd gen (2010+) I believe it went up to ~46 mph.

However, in order to stay in electric when accelerating on a non-PHV Prius, you have accelerate VERY slowly and it is definitely NOT the most efficient way to drive that car. It's best to accelerate w/the ICE because on that car, everything ultimately comes from gasoline. Generating power (from gasoline) to put in the battery and extracting it to power the MGs results in a whole bunch of losses.

The PHV Prius is calibrated differently when it's in EV mode and allows for far more aggressive acceleration in its EV mode.

I can't speak to the reason for the 62 mph limitation. It might be RPM limits on the MGs, as well. I don't recall if anyone knows whether the PSD on the production PiP is the same as that of the non-plugin. On the PHV Prius demo cars, it was.

 

[hodad66]

Six Volts and Orlando's resident Leaf.... fun for all......

 

[evnow]

GM needs to seriously think about their distribution model for Volt - otherwise they will be helping anti-Volt press.

I met a couple who had bought a Volt during the Plugin day event here in the Seattle area. They were asked to pay a whopping $10K premium for the car. So they bought the Volt in TX and shipped it home !

So, both the stories of Volts being not sold in some parts of the country - and being in great short supply in others is true. That really shows the bad distribution strategy of GM.

 

[hodad66]

and the classic greed of GM dealerships.......

 

[scottf200]

GM needs to seriously think about their distribution model for Volt - otherwise they will be helping anti-Volt press.
I met a couple who had bought a Volt during the Plugin day event here in the Seattle area. They were asked to pay a whopping $10K premium for the car. So they bought the Volt in TX and shipped it home !So, both the stories of Volts being not sold in some parts of the country - and being in great short supply in others is true. That really shows the bad distribution strategy of GM.

Independent dealeship attempting to take advantage of a small window of law of supply and demand. Shame on them. We call them out on a bad dealer thread on the Volt forum and contact GM about them. Hopefully that leads to future allocations of not only the Volt but of other great selling GM/Chevrolet cars being scrutinized/limited in some way. If you know more details please PM me. My local Chevrolet dealer is selling 2012's at MSRP but they bought a 2011 from some other dealer and got it shipped to them. Because of the cost they paid the other dealership and the shipping cost they raised the 2011 Volt's cost to try to make up for it. Slimy. They got many visitors to their dealership to look at the Volt and possibly buy another vehicle so they still were ahead no doubt without trying to stick it to the 2011 buyer!