Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[JeffN]

SanDust, you forgot about other maintenance items besides oil changes/filter for the Volt: injectors, valve adjustments, spark plugs, sp wires, O2 sensors, catalytic converter/s, muffler/s, exhaust manifold, transmission flushes/repairs, coolant flushes (much longer interval with the LEAF), distributor cap, control module, etc. And etc. means many, many, more maintenance items than a LEAF. I've replaced all of these listed items and more on my last ICE! It isn't required to flush the brake fluid every year...it's suggested. The only 'real' maintenance for a LEAF is the free (for two years) battery check once a year.

I'm not SanDust, but....

The Volt manual calls for flushing and replacing the coolant every 5 years or 150,000 miles. The LEAF calls for replacing the coolant after 7 years or 105,000 miles (and every 75,000 miles or 5 years subsequently). I'm going to say that coolant schedule requirement is effectively equivalent.

Unlike the LEAF, the Volt manual does not call for replacing the brake fluid every 2 years (only when brake hydraulic service is done). All other checks and suggestions (rotate tires, etc.) are common between the LEAF and Volt except:

* replace engine oil and oil filter every 2 years

* replace engine air filter every 50,000 miles

* replace spark plugs every 100,000 miles (?)

That's it. The air filter is available online for $13 and is easy to do yourself.

They also recommend flushing the air conditioning system every 10 years but that's not specific to having a gas engine.

So, the only differences are:

Volt -- replace oil and oil filter every 2 years
Volt -- replace $13 engine air filter every 50,000 miles
Volt -- replace spark plugs every 100,000 miles (?)
LEAF -- replace brake fluid every 2 years

Replacing the LEAF brake fluid every 2 years seems excessive but that's what is listed in the service schedule. Replacing the Volt engine oil every two years seems sensible. My guess is the spark plugs need replacing every 100,000 miles of engine use, not total miles driven and that means hardly anyone needs to replace them in the Volt. Ever.

I doubt that changing the engine oil is more expensive than changing the brake fluid. The Volt has 3 separate coolant systems to flush and refill but I assume they would be done at the same time (although they actually only call for the engine coolant to be done). Flushing and filling 2 more coolant tanks will cost a little extra. And then there are the $13 air filters....

In other words, there isn't really much of a difference in required maintenance intervals or cost between the Volt and the LEAF. Any differences are minor because the hybrid-specific part of the Volt just isn't going to get much wear and tear compared to an all-gasoline vehicle.

Also, there is no way a Volt can drive for zero dollars, but I do everyday! My electricity costs me nothing plus it's green! And there are more and more LEAF drivers who have PVs so you definitely need to exclude us when making your comparisons.

A Volt might need to burn a gallon or so of gas a year for engine lubrication maintenance mode (it forces the engine to run 1-2 minutes every 6 weeks minimum). Maybe another gallon is needed if you drive when the temperature is less than 26F to help with cabin heating (engine starts automatically for 1-2 minutes occasionally, as needed).

That's it -- about $4-8 of gasoline at current prices per year.

Of course, many Volt owners will use more than that. So will many LEAF owners -- when they are not driving their LEAF.

 

[DrInnovation]

Volt owners/enthusist, Help me out here a little.

Do spark plugs dryrot or decay or something I'm not familiar with? I have changed them on normal ICE vehicles but it was after 60,000 miles. So if my Volt's ICE/GG only runs 10% of the time (10% for quick math) then is that not 600,000 miles on my Volt before I need to change them? I do keep my vehicles for a pretty long time but not likely 600,000. I don't ever think I'll need to change the spark plugs in my Volt.

You are heading into unknown territory here. We are driving an ICE engine in a way no one has real long term tests on it. Sparkplugs can be impacted by deposits and corrosion. Hopefully maintenance mode does its job. The recommended replacement for the Volt's Plugs is 100,000 miles, which I would presume was assuming a 30% ICE usage. (If its 100K ICE that would be nice for GM to clarify). Might push it to 200K, but since a spark-plug replacement (and air-filter and such) is < $100 why risk it. I consider a reasonable price to pay for insuring my ICE is performing well when I want/need it. Yep, it might be a higher cost than waiting until 600K, but I'd rather not be penny wise and pound foolish. If .001 per mile is a enough to make Leaf owners feel superior, then nothing will ever make them happy. Life is too short to risk my Volt for a few hundred dollars.

 

[DrInnovation]

Also, there is no way a Volt can drive for zero dollars, but I do everyday! My electricity costs me nothing plus it's green! And there are more and more LEAF drivers who have PVs so you definitely need to exclude us when making your comparisons. :mrgreen:

PV is not free, you paid for the installation and hence there is an amortized cost per kwh.

Maybe you are the greenest, but Volts can drive for very close on PV.

Actually there are multipel volt owners on gm-volt that are charging on PV and more than covering the Volt Charging.
Check out ecosister (their family has 2 volts charging on PV).
https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/63" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ecosister as 120 lifetime "gas" miles, or between 4 and 5 gallons, <$20, way less than a day rental for a longer trip.



Me, I'm yet doing PV (not sure I'll keep the house or more than 2-3 more years) but paying for renewable (mostly wind-power) because I charge at night and there is not much PV at night.

 

[SanDust]

SanDust, you forgot about other maintenance items besides oil changes/filter for the Volt: injectors, valve adjustments, spark plugs, sp wires, O2 sensors, catalytic converter/s, muffler/s, exhaust manifold, transmission flushes/repairs, coolant flushes (much longer interval with the LEAF), distributor cap, control module, etc. And etc. means many, many, more maintenance items than a LEAF. I've replaced all of these listed items and more on my last ICE! It isn't required to flush the brake fluid every year...it's suggested. The only 'real' maintenance for a LEAF is the free (for two years) battery check once a year. Also, there is no way a Volt can drive for zero dollars, but I do everyday! My electricity costs me nothing plus it's green! And there are more and more LEAF drivers who have PVs so you definitely need to exclude us when making your comparisons. :mrgreen:

I'm sorry you've had such bad luck with your vehicles. I've just never needed many repairs. The biggest issue for me has been electrical problems, probably related to living close to the ocean, and those will still be there with the Leaf.

You're also overestimating the maintenance costs of ICE vehicles generally and the Volt in particular. Most ICE cars have few if any problems with the drive train. Second is that, given the Volt won't run in ICE Mode very often, the drive train won't have many miles put on it. The engine in the Volt is probably rated to run 200,000 miles or something and over ten years it probably won't see 15,000. Yes there will be more maintenance, belts and so forth all have shelf lives. My point was those costs won't be incurred until well after a five year period so they can't be counted in considering TCO over a five year period. Ten maybe. Plus, and I hadn't really thought of this, if you were to do like most people who own Leaf and own at least one other ICE vehicle, you're going to be making the same repairs. (So comparing the cost of a Leaf to a Volt doesn't work. What you need to do is compare the cost of a Leaf AND say a Honda Fit to a Volt, since you'd both of those vehicles to do what the Volt would).

Finally, your notion that you have a PV system and therefore you drive for free, which the Volt will never do has a few logical holes in it. First is that a PV system isn't free. In fact if you took what it cost to install your PV system and allocated it to the kWh you've produced you're probably paying 10X what everyone else has paid, at least. Second is that to the extent you're charging a Leaf "for free" you'd also charge a Volt "for free". If you go to the Volt stat website, which I just did, what you'll find is that the first few pages have owners with 90% of their miles in EV Mode. If they had a PV system they'd likewise be driving "for free" 90% of the time.

 

[TomT]

Most households are two vehicle households regardless of whether or not they have a Leaf, Volt, or something else entirely. Thus, this argument really is moot...

Plus, and I hadn't really thought of this, if you were to do like most people who own Leaf and own at least one other ICE vehicle, you're going to be making the same repairs. (So comparing the cost of a Leaf to a Volt doesn't work. What you need to do is compare the cost of a Leaf AND say a Honda Fit to a Volt, since you'd both of those vehicles to do what the Volt would).

 

[Smidge204]

The whole thing about brake fluid absorbing moisture is overdone. So the brake fluid has a little moisture in it. So what? It's not going to affect compression since all fluids are, in essence, not compressible. I guess you could lower the boiling point of the fluid if you got enough moisture in there but really, how likely is that? Strikes me that for many vehicles, the Leaf excluded, changing the brake fluid makes is much like filling your tires with nitrogen. (No idea why the Leaf needs the brakes flushed so routinely but obviously there is some reason so you'd be unwise not to do it).

SanDust, you say a lot of very ill-informed things... but this takes the it to whole new levels. You could at least do a search to see if what you're about to type even makes sense.

Unlike the nitrogen nonsense, people actually get hurt or killed because of this. A somewhat deeper search shows that GM is pretty much the only vehicle manufacturer that doesn't explicitly recommend fluid changes every 2-3 years, so the LEAF is actually the true typical case.
=Smidge=

 

[JeffN]

A somewhat deeper search shows that GM is pretty much the only vehicle manufacturer that doesn't explicitly recommend fluid changes every 2-3 years, so the LEAF is actually the true typical case.
=Smidge=

You didn't try very hard... I just checked the official manufacturer recommended maintainance schedules for the 2011 Toyota Prius, 2011 Ford Fusion Hybrid, and a recent 2008 model Mazda sedan online and none of them called for replacing the brake fluid on a regular basis.

 

[TomT]

Interesting. The rate of fluid deterioration is even faster than I believed it to be... I just hope I'm never behind SanDust when he has to stop quickly after a few years! :lol:

SanDust, you say a lot of very ill-informed things... but this takes the it to whole new levels. You could at least do a search to see if what you're about to type even makes sense.

Unlike the nitrogen nonsense, people actually get hurt or killed because of this. A somewhat deeper search shows that GM is pretty much the only vehicle manufacturer that doesn't explicitly recommend fluid changes every 2-3 years, so the LEAF is actually the true typical case.
=Smidge=

 

[edatoakrun]

From the WSJ:

General Motors Co. said on Monday it will offer loaner vehicles to Chevrolet Volt owners to address safety worries amid a U.S. investigation into post-crash fires involving the vehicles.

GM said it believes sparks and fires that occurred in three Volt batteries following crash tests by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration were caused by electronics malfunctions and not overheating chemicals within the battery cell. Engineers are working on fixes that would make the battery casing sturdier, GM product chief Mary Barra said Monday.

"We're looking at a handful of promising avenues," she said, adding that GM is confident that the vehicle is safe.

U.S. auto-safety officials opened an investigation into the Volt last week after two crash tests of the electric car caused its battery to spark or catch fire. NHTSA conducted the tests because of an incident this spring in which a Volt battery damaged in a crash test caught fire three weeks later.

"This technology should inspire confidence and pride, not raise doubt and concern," GM North America chief Mark Reuss said. "I believe in the safety of the Volt. The primary focus is on the confidence and concerns of our paying customers."

Both NHTSA and GM have said Volt owners shouldn't worry, as the fires occurred days after a crash and not on impact, and they pointed out that gasoline-powered cars are at risk of catching fire when damaged. More than 250,000 vehicle fires occur each year in the U.S., causing around 500 deaths, according to the National Fire Protection Association.

In the latest NHTSA tests, the agency intentionally damaged the battery compartment and ruptured the vehicle's coolant line to replicate the initial incident in May. Though the fire in that incident occurred weeks after a crash, the latest incidents happened within a week of one, the agency said.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203935604577066232270911886.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[stephent]

Re: brake fluid (non)-replacement
http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"A General Motors spokesman said Delco Supreme 11 DOT 3 brake fluid contains additives than many other brake fluids do not, so it is essentially a lifetime fluid. Starting in 1993, GM began using a new type of rubber brake hose with an EPM lining and outer jacketing that reduces moisture penetration by 50%. So GM does not consider fluid contamination to be a significant problem."

Also
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?7066-Update-Owners-manual-servicing-information&p=63385#post63385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
from a GM insider further explains their position.

 

[palmermd]

Wow. This is the first I've heard that the fires were repeatable. Now that is something to be worried about (if you are GM or the body shop that receives this crashed car). Probably not a problem for the car owner as the car would be sitting at a repair shop waiting to get fixed after such an accident.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=153777#p153777" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[stephent]

Wow. This is the first I've heard that the fires were repeatable. Now that is something to be worried about (if you are GM or the body shop that receives this crashed car).

Note that it wasn't that easy to replicate, apparently this latest round of tests involved damaging stand-alone battery assemblies to replicate the damage from the first incident. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-28/gm-volt-probed-by-u-s-after-crash-tested-batteries-catch-fire.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; "The testing, which involved a stand-alone battery assembly, ..."

I think the media is massively over-hyping this as it makes for a sensational headline if you shout fire and omit the details. Take battery out of car, slam it into things, it might catch fire. OK, I'll try not to do that ... Seems like the only lesson to be learned is that salvage/body shops should take proper precautions if the battery might be damaged.

 

[JeffN]

I doubt that changing the engine oil is more expensive than changing the brake fluid.

After a brief search, it looks like getting a brake fluid flush is several times more expensive than getting an oil change.

Ironically, it looks like scheduled maintenance costs on the LEAF are higher than the Volt.

 

[evnow]

"Plug-in Cruze doesn’t make Volt redundant at all. Plug-in Cruze would have a different powertrain. Plug-in hybrids use both the engine and motor all the time.” [unlike the Volt that only uses the battery exclusively for the first 40 like a BEV even under hard acceleration or up to it's max speed of 100 MPH]

Considering that PHEV itself is a niche at this point - # of people caring about pure EV operation under all (I guess almost all?) circumstances when the battery has enough power - is a niche within a niche.

Most people would be perfectly happy to increase effective mpg & reduce gas usage.

The purists would ofcourse want a BEV & nothing to do with an ICE. Volt basically appeals to "half-way purists".

Sales of Plugin Prius, Energy vs Volt will show us what the market likes better.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Most households are two vehicle households regardless of whether or not they have a Leaf, Volt, or something else entirely. Thus, this argument really is moot...

Plus, and I hadn't really thought of this, if you were to do like most people who own Leaf and own at least one other ICE vehicle, you're going to be making the same repairs. (So comparing the cost of a Leaf to a Volt doesn't work. What you need to do is compare the cost of a Leaf AND say a Honda Fit to a Volt, since you'd both of those vehicles to do what the Volt would).

seems to me that this is a good argument for the niche that the Volt fits best into, the single car owner. If I only owned one car, the Volt would be more appealing... I know quite a few familes who only own one car and use public transit and a bike to make up the difference. For folks who own just one car and would consider adding a Leaf as a second, instead of replacing their one car with a volt, this argument holds true, IMHO, you'd really need to compare apples to apples, the cost of the Leaf and the second gas car vs the maintenance costs of a single Volt. Not sure how many folks this accounts for but I don't see how the comparison point that SanDust brought up is moot. The volt makes a lot of sense for those who absolutely need the range extension, for whatever reason, but who really want to eliminate or nearly eliminate their gas consumption the rest of the time.

 

[edatoakrun]

Wow. This is the first I've heard that the fires were repeatable. Now that is something to be worried about (if you are GM or the body shop that receives this crashed car).

Note that it wasn't that easy to replicate, apparently this latest round of tests involved damaging stand-alone battery assemblies to replicate the damage from the first incident. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-28/gm-volt-probed-by-u-s-after-crash-tested-batteries-catch-fire.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; "The testing, which involved a stand-alone battery assembly, ..."

I think the media is massively over-hyping this as it makes for a sensational headline if you shout fire and omit the details. Take battery out of car, slam it into things, it might catch fire. OK, I'll try not to do that ... Seems like the only lesson to be learned is that salvage/body shops should take proper precautions if the battery might be damaged.

CNBC just had a news segment on "EV fire hazards".

Teased a longer report, on the 2PM (EST) upcoming broadcast.

 

[evnow]

seems to me that this is a good argument for the niche that the Volt fits best into, the single car owner.

It would be interesting to get stats on the actual Volt owners - to see if this is their only car. With an average income of about $170K, I doubt Volt would be their only car.

 

[scottf200]

Wow. This is the first I've heard that the fires were repeatable. Now that is something to be worried about (if you are GM or the body shop that receives this crashed car).

Note that it wasn't that easy to replicate, apparently this latest round of tests involved damaging stand-alone battery assemblies to replicate the damage from the first incident. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-28/gm-volt-probed-by-u-s-after-crash-tested-batteries-catch-fire.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; "The testing, which involved a stand-alone battery assembly, ..."

I think the media is massively over-hyping this as it makes for a sensational headline if you shout fire and omit the details. Take battery out of car, slam it into things, it might catch fire. OK, I'll try not to do that ... Seems like the only lesson to be learned is that salvage/body shops should take proper precautions if the battery might be damaged.

Email I just got:
Volt Advisor Team
An Associate of Morley Companies, Inc.
Volt Line: 877-486-5846

Dear Volt Owner,

You may have seen the recent news articles regarding the NHTSA's (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) safety investigation of the Chevrolet Volt. I’m writing you today with more details that, I think, will put things in perspective and make you feel better about your Volt.

First and foremost, I want to assure you of one very important thing: the Volt is a safe car. The Volt continues to have a 5 star overall vehicle score for safety in NHTSA’s New Car Assessment Program. It was also given a Top Safety Pick Award from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

There are good reasons the Volt is safe. Our team has put more than one million miles into making the Chevrolet Volt as safe as it is remarkable. After all, our families, neighbors, co-workers and friends are among those who own the cars we’re tasked with designing, engineering and manufacturing.

Here are the facts behind the most recent news articles. In May, the NHTSA ran one of its most severe crash tests at a test facility in Wisconsin. The Volt battery was damaged and the coolant line was ruptured. Three weeks later, an electrical fire involving the test vehicle occurred.

NHSTA, working with GM engineers, has been running a program of severe impact and intrusion tests on Volt battery assemblies as part of its effort to understand and replicate the May 2011 incident. Thanksgiving night, NHTSA told us that one of the batteries tested was involved in an electrical fire similar to the one that took place in Wisconsin. As a result NHTSA has begun a preliminary investigation of Chevrolet Volt battery assemblies.

We are aware of no real world consumer incidents that have produced a similar result. These recent tests show a very rare set of circumstances: A severe impact resulting in the battery and coolant lines being compromised. And then the passing of a significant amount of time before an electrical fire may take place.

The Volt is as safe as conventional vehicles for its occupants – before, during and immediately after a crash. When electrical energy is left in a battery after a severe crash it can be similar to leaving gasoline in a leaking fuel tank after severe damage. It’s important to drain the energy from the battery after a crash that compromises the battery’s integrity. GM and NHTSA's focus and research continue to be on battery performance, handling, storage and disposal after a crash.

Even though there have been no customer incidents, we're taking steps to ensure your peace of mind. If you are in any way uncomfortable driving your Volt as a result of this information, we want to make it right. We will provide you a GM vehicle to drive until this issue is resolved. Contact your Volt Advisor to make arrangements or to answer your questions. If you are not aware of your specific Volt Advisor, the contact information is: phone: 877-4-VOLT-INFO (877-486-5846) email: [email protected]

We take enormous pride in Volt and what it represents—a new era of electric vehicles that can reduce dependence on gas, reduce air pollution, and more. On-going collaboration between the government, manufacturers and other stakeholders will enhance post crash protocols and accelerate acceptance of electric vehicles.

There is nothing more important to us at General Motors than the safety of our customers. We will continue to aid the NHTSA investigation in every way possible.

We stand 100% behind the quality and safety of the Chevrolet Volt - now and always.

Thank you for being a Volt owner. By the way I am also a Volt owner, my daughter drives it every day and she will continue to do so.

Mark Reuss
President GM North America and Volt Owner (#1457)

 

[edatoakrun]

CNBC news report on "Volt/EV fire hazards" coming...momentarily?

Wonder what NewsCorp's US infotainment division ("Fox News") will do with this FUD opportunity...?

 

[AndyH]

Volt owners/enthusist, Help me out here a little.

Do spark plugs dryrot or decay or something I'm not familiar with? I have changed them on normal ICE vehicles but it was after 60,000 miles. So if my Volt's ICE/GG only runs 10% of the time (10% for quick math) then is that not 600,000 miles on my Volt before I need to change them? I do keep my vehicles for a pretty long time but not likely 600,000. I don't ever think I'll need to change the spark plugs in my Volt.

I'm in neither of your suggested categories but will provide some facts anyway. 100,000 miles is a normal modern spark plug change interval. I would not, however, try to extend that by suggesting it's all about engine run time. Maintenance intervals are normally expressed in time or mileage - whichever comes first. I'd be very surprised if the maintenance manual didn't use the average 12,000 mile per year to suggest 100,000 miles or 6-8 years, whichever comes first.

Modern spark plugs don't erode like old plugs used to - they can provide a clean spark (and trigger a better burn) much, much longer than than they used to. The problem is one of time - and of the corrosion that forms in the threads between the steel spark plug and the often aluminum cylinder head (moisture, dissimilar metals, galvanic corrosion). Using copper anti-seize paste can help, but in the end it's normally going to take plenty of penetrating oil to get spark plugs out after 100,000 miles. And it can be expensive to repair stripped threads in an aluminum head.

Even on days the engine doesn't run, the normal day/night heat/cool cycles cause the engine to breath moist air. This is one of the ways engine oil is contaminated with water (which allows a number of acids to form in the engine), and the main source of water in/around engines that are not allowed to get up to full operating temperature each trip. Running the engine brings in more water (one gallon for each gallon of gasoline burned) but the hot engine allows the water inside to boil off. A cold engine doesn't have that protection.

From the viewpoint of someone that does their own maintenance, and has helped people solve their 100,000 mile problems, there's not a chance I'd leave a set of spark plugs in that long - and I certainly wouldn't try to justify a longer life - especially in an engine that's designed to sit unused.