Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[AndyH]

Sigh. Sorry this, too, has to be some type of debate. If you don't get that the two most significant problems facing the human race at this moment are population and CO2-induced climate disruption, then we'd better stop now. Not a slur - simply fact.

Okay, I'll agree with that. I said reduce petrol (as we are talking cars) but agree is really about CO2 reduction. Its not about an ICE, its about CO2 (that can cause melting ice).

I was addressing your comment in an earlier thread

snip.. snip...
Since it's important to our future to get as many ICEs off the road as possible, promoting hybrids can be seen as riding the brakes...

as being misguided. The argument should be about overall reduction in carbon emissions for the household, for which BEV+ICE is, more often than not produces less CO2 reduction than EREV +ICE. (where the ICE can be owned or rented and of course in both its cases better if the ICE is a high MPG hybrid).
And of course BEV + EREV is better still.

Sorry - I'm not interested in argument. And I'm not interested in debating whether a 0.75% or 1.0% reduction is better when there are much less expensive (and very necessary!) ways to trim 50% or more in one swell foop.

As someone that was doing climatological research back in the early 80s (under Jim Hanson at NASA), I'll just note that when you do ofter fact, the are unfortunately, false factoids. Estimates for the impact of a total Greenland icecap meltdown are under 7 meters, and that is, of course, not in any of our lifetimes. Even the agressive models have a total Greenland ice sheet melt taking nearly a millenium; Most put it at 2-3 millennia if we continue on our current trend.

Feel free to cite a source in a suitable area of the forum. I'm not going to "quibble' over 13.034121 feet on a forum such as this - especially when the connection between our current CO2 level, 3-6° C of additional temperature, and about 25-40 metres (~82-131 feet) of additional water was reported in at least 2009. (Tripati, Science, Dec 2009)


I advised Herm to buy a boat - I didn't tell him how far north to trailer it. :lol:

PS...

Even the agressive models have a total Greenland ice sheet melt taking nearly a millenium; Most put it at 2-3 millennia if we continue on our current trend.

That's the rub, though, isn't it? We're not continuing on our current trend, are we?

PPS...and if you try to tell me 1. the Volt is better than anything, or 2. at our current consumption rate we have 200 years of coal available, I'm gonna throw this piece of 2x4 at you!

edit...fixed miscalculated number. note to self-slower on keys.

 

[AndyH]

Herm, if you don't mind, I'll take this as a joke rather than a sincere attempt to suggest that the damage we're doing to this planet is little more than a result of an obscure belief. Because if I were you, "Florida Boy" I'd be hitting Bass Pro Shop for a Jon boat and a life jacket because Greenland is worth 36 feet of sea level rise... :lol:

Please dont get insulted by anything I say, its meant in good fun. Remember, I do believe you could be right.

You are not worried about nuclear war, yellowstone blowing up, out of control bio-warfare, asteroid impacts, topsoil depletion, loss of bio-diversity, supernovas or gamma ray flares?

What about when people start getting genetically re-engineered or ordering gestated-to-order babies at their local mall?

Thanks Herm. Not 'worrying' per se. I like the Dalai Lama's take on worry (roughly paraphrased) - everything that can be worried over can be divided into one of two categories - those we cannot affect and those we can. If we cannot affect them, then no need to worry. Those we can affect? No need to worry about those either.

BTW - don't poke the 48 year old grey-hair dude during final exam week. :lol:

 

[DrInnovation]

...
BTW - don't poke the 48 year old grey-hair dude during final exam week. :lol:

Don't think you have to worry, neither Herm or I have been talking about poking anyone with a 2x4.
But just as a suggestion, study hard you may need it. And if it comes up on your finals 36ft - 7m is NOT 3ft. :lol:

 

[Herm]

something to turn your hair white, perhaps fixing AGW is easier than we thought :

http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/11/29/0015216/paper-on-super-flu-strain-may-be-banned-from-publication" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"A Dutch researcher has created a virus with the potential to kill half of the planet's population. Now, researchers and experts in bioterrorism debate whether it is a good idea to publish the virus creation 'recipe'."

 

[AndyH]

something to turn your hair white, perhaps fixing AGW is easier than we thought :

http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/11/29/0015216/paper-on-super-flu-strain-may-be-banned-from-publication" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"A Dutch researcher has created a virus with the potential to kill half of the planet's population. Now, researchers and experts in bioterrorism debate whether it is a good idea to publish the virus creation 'recipe'."

Thanks Herm - saw that. Why waste our time with flu, though, when ebola is so much more effective. Considering our record emissions to date and the ~40 year lag, even ebola won't fix our problems anytime soon.

 

[AndyH]

...
BTW - don't poke the 48 year old grey-hair dude during final exam week. :lol:

Don't think you have to worry, neither Herm or I have been talking about poking anyone with a 2x4.
But just as a suggestion, study hard you may need it. And if it comes up on your final's 36ft - 7m is NOT 3ft. :lol:

Thank you for your amazing tolerance and attention to detail. If only I hadn't fat-fingered that one away...fixed.

7 m x 3.2808399 feet/m ~= 22.965879 feet. 36 feet - 22.965879 feet ~= 13.034121 feet.

As to your suggestion that 7 meters is likely more accurate than my 36 foot joke to Herm, would you prefer ~200 feet?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kffsux-ifKk[/youtube]

So again - It's long past time to stop picking nits - we're overdue for folks that are capable of stepping back for the big picture - and then getting off their posteriors and acting. Pick a side?

 

[DrInnovation]

snip
So again - It's long past time to stop picking nits - we're overdue for folks that are capable of stepping back for the big picture - and then getting off their posteriors and acting. Pick a side?

Nothing stops one from trying to be being technically precise while also paying attention to and acting on the big picture. I did pick a side and act, so get off your high-horse and loose your holier-than-thou attitude. I tracked development of various EV choices for years. I analyzed the alternatives and I then bought the most innovative and, for my family, most efficient car available, the Volt. We have been paying for 100% renewable electricity for years, and now it powers my driving.

I also think bigger and spend some of my research effort on improving efficiency for EV technology and working with companies on improved efficiency in EV systems and new types of energy production systems. As an educator, I've been involved in teaching innovation and work with our campus sustainability efforts. I'm helping to get the next generation of Americans think clearly about innovation and efficiency.

I am, at my core, an educator and in the bigger picture focus on helping others understand both the details and the big picture. You are likely a lost-cause as you do not engage in a meaningful dialog, you skirt the real issues. Nevertheless, others read forums to learn and your posts are often inaccurate and biased. It may annoy you and seem argumentative, but when you make incorrect statements, especially about the Volt, you will be challenged and I will provide factual support for my point of view. The big picture is not about what is best for you, or for me. It is about what is best for the larger community. BEVs are better than an EREV, for some people, but EREVs are more effective for most Americans. I'm here to try to help others understand the facts about the effectiveness of the Volt and the EREV concept, and provide counterbalance to the occasional zealots that incorrectly argue that pure BEVs are THE superior solution.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

snip
So again - It's long past time to stop picking nits - we're overdue for folks that are capable of stepping back for the big picture - and then getting off their posteriors and acting. Pick a side?

Nothing stops one from trying to be being technically precise while also paying attention to and acting on the big picture.

the problem we have with all these public forums is that we collectively know the advantages of EVs when it comes to the environmental, financial and cost impact but the casual reader who finds these posts on google searches does not.

so its hard for me or any other to "hold back" as it is because we are all really stating the obvious.

EVs were never touted as the perfect solution

gasoline is a tough crowd to beat.

gasoline is 20 times better than batteries for power

it take 20 million gallons of water to produce the same power as a gallon of gas

it take several hundred pounds of coal

it takes who knows how much wind and on and on.

without gasoline, we would look like Eastern Russia right now. we would have never built this country to be what it is now but gasoline's time is done. we are now hurting ourselves. we are now addicts. morphine is one of the greatest inventions of all time. but it does have a place and when it moves from that place, we have trouble.

gasoline's place is now MUCH smaller. it has become trouble.

i dont dispute your right to speak your mind. no one does. not all of us may have the best writing skills. so dont take any comment here as a personal attack. realize, i do not want to write a book in response to what you have to say. so "read between the lines"

we all have valid points to one degree or another, but most are presented in a "do or die" response. problem is our move to EVs and other greener sustainable options is in that category. remaining on gas is not

 

[AndyH]

I will provide factual support for my point of view.

I look forward to reading this info when you provide it. I've asked you to cite sources. In return you suggest my cited info is incorrect and that I should favor your opinions. Sorry.

While I appreciate that you caught my math error and lack of pre-release quality control, stepping back for a look suggests that focusing only on 7 meters is the lost cause. Consider these if you care to:
- The planet is warming and the rate is increasing
- The poles are warming faster than equatorial regions
- The Greenland ice sheet and Antarctic sheets appear to be increasing their melt rates
- Single areas (Greenland...) are not melting in isolation
- At a minimum, the estimated 6 meters and 7 meters from Greenland and the Western shelf in Antarctica will result in 13 meters of sea level rise. In addition, we'll continue to gain sea level from expansion and the continued loss of glacier and other ice.
- 13 meters is approximately 42.6 feet.
- I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we'll pass-through 36 feet on the way to 42...

 

[DrInnovation]

I will provide factual support for my point of view.

I look forward to reading this info when you provide it. I've asked you to cite sources. In return you suggest my cited info is incorrect and that I should favor your opinions. Sorry.

While I appreciate that you caught my math error and lack of pre-release quality control, stepping back for a look suggests that focusing only on 7 meters is the lost cause. Consider these if you care to:
- The planet is warming and the rate is increasing
- The poles are warming faster than equatorial regions
- The Greenland ice sheet and Antarctic sheets appear to be increasing their melt rates
- Single areas (Greenland...) are not melting in isolation
- At a minimum, the estimated 6 meters and 7 meters from Greenland and the Western shelf in Antarctica will result in 13 meters of sea level rise. In addition, we'll continue to gain sea level from expansion and the continued loss of glacier and other ice.
- 13 meters is approximately 42.6 feet.
- I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we'll pass-through 36 feet on the way to 42...

This is too far from The Volt to be in this thread, so this is my last on this topic.
My sources on Greenland's potential impact include
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/412.htm#tab113" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/418.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and for simpler reading
http://www.mos.org/soti/icecore/sealevel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

True greenland would not melt in isolation, but that was not your statement. But I'll grant you that if all of greenland were to melt there would likely be a large antartica melt as as well, but that is not what you said. Interestingly, your statement about greenland is much like your statements about BEV and ICE vehicles, presenting data out of context. In isolation a BEV is better than a EREV , but in the broader context considering other elements of the connected world (other family trips), a EREV reduces CO2 more than a BEV + ICE. (Which is how we got to this weird subtread).

 

[DrInnovation]

snip
So again - It's long past time to stop picking nits - we're overdue for folks that are capable of stepping back for the big picture - and then getting off their posteriors and acting. Pick a side?

Nothing stops one from trying to be being technically precise while also paying attention to and acting on the big picture.

the problem we have with all these public forums is that we collectively know the advantages of EVs when it comes to the environmental, financial and cost impact but the casual reader who finds these posts on google searches does not.

so its hard for me or any other to "hold back" as it is because we are all really stating the obvious.
...snip....

No problem DaveinOlyWA, and I'm not taking any of this personally (though I do point any ad hominem arguments a they are ineffective had have no business in any serious discussion).

2010 Prius + Leaf.. very nice combo, currently the best family solution out there that can support long trips.
If only there were a good awd SUV EV (or EREV) maybe I get my wife to switch. She's already dismissed the Prius V Wagon because it lacks awd. Then again we had 2+ inches of white today and its still snowing. (I find the Volt does fine in snow, at least until its deep enough to hit the air dam.)

 

[AndyH]

I will provide factual support for my point of view.

I look forward to reading this info when you provide it. I've asked you to cite sources. In return you suggest my cited info is incorrect and that I should favor your opinions. Sorry.

While I appreciate that you caught my math error and lack of pre-release quality control, stepping back for a look suggests that focusing only on 7 meters is the lost cause. Consider these if you care to:
<snips>

This is too far from The Volt to be in this thread, so this is my last on this topic.
My sources on Greenland's potential impact include
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/412.htm#tab113" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/418.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and for simpler reading
http://www.mos.org/soti/icecore/sealevel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

True greenland would not melt in isolation, but that was not your statement. But I'll grant you that if all of greenland were to melt there would likely be a large antartica melt as as well, but that is not what you said.

Thanks for the links - I'll check them out. I agree - it's not what I said. Please also remember that what I said was in an off-handed joke to Herm - not to you - and was neither cited nor presented as peer reviewed fact.

Interestingly, your statement about greenland is much like your statements about BEV and ICE vehicles, presenting data out of context. In isolation a BEV is better than a EREV , but in the broader context considering other elements of the connected world (other family trips), a EREV reduces CO2 more than a BEV + ICE. (Which is how we got to this weird subtread).

Gack...nice spin, Doc. I'd edit it to add: "In my opinion..." where I you. But yes - here's where we get of track. No, I don't expect you're surprised, since I'm changing my life around to be off grid and off oil, while it appears to me that you're happy staying closer to the status quo. That's fine! I'm not here to change your life - (and all snarkiness aside) I just wish that was mutual.

Vehicle decisions cannot be massed into some nation-wide average, as much as our jelly-filled heads desire that. When I was on the road 30K miles per year doing trade shows, there wasn't (and still isn't) a hybrid that would do the job. In order to do what I wanted without resorting to a 20MPG pickup truck, I bought an older VW Passat wagon diesel. It carried all my trade show equipment (and the occasional 3x30-gallon drums of synthetic oil) while returning a worst-case 44 MPG with 1000 lbs of cargo and 75-80 on the highway. Thankfully I'm off the road and can make other choices. Bottom line - consider the possibility (probability?!) that one's determination of what should be 'best' might not work for others.

EREV reduces CO2 more than a BEV + ICE.

It appears that from your vantage point that makes perfect sense! And it's possible that most everyone wearing a 'Hello Kitty' backpack would agree! Unfortunately, there are PLENTY of other options and combinations that disprove your point! Here are three:
- Let's start with a Leaf and a VW diesel. EV with no ICE-bloatware when appropriate, and five passengers, plenty of luggage, and 45-50 MPG on the road when necessary. No, emissions are not as good, but biodiesel and some injection tweaking can change that around except for NOx.
- How about a Leaf and a Gen1 Insight? The Insight is also passenger-limited like the Volt, and is also a hybrid, but even as an old-tech hybrid gets significantly better fuel economy and has cleaner emissions. Not fair?
- Ok, make it a Leaf and a Prius. Take it up a notch - Leaf and Prius with plug-in add-on. Now we have two vehicles with road-worthy EV performance and 100% electric drive capability (no, the Prius isn't a 90mph EV but that's ok). When in hybrid mode the Prius carries one more person, gets better fuel economy, has cleaner emissions than the Volt, and costs less even with the price of the add-on PHEV battery.

Sorry - if one's goal is teaching about the superiority of GM's green-halo attempt, please give it up (or take it to the vendor forum). I agree that this is getting wayyy off course. So long.

 

[stephent]

Bottom line - consider the possibility (probability?!) that one's determination of what should be 'best' might not work for others.

Wouldn't it be nice if some of you Leaf fans would actually follow what you write before participating in Volt bashing. Nearly all of the Volt people here fully acknowledge that the Leaf works quite well for some people in certain situations, the Leaf a better choice for those people. But many Leaf participants in this thread can't ever accept the Volt as working in any situation.

Unfortunately, there are PLENTY of other options and combinations that disprove your point! Here are three:
[BEV + very efficient diesel/hybrid/plug-in hybrid]

DrInnovation was discussing a typical scenario where a family with two ordinary ICE cars was contemplating replacing one of them with either a Leaf or a Volt. Not specific scenarios where the family already has an efficient hybrid. Hybrids aren't that popular; his scenario is far more common than yours. Since you can't logically attack his position, you seek to re-frame the argument to some other situation. This seems to be a constant approach to debate around here; you can't win on logic in the discussed situation, so you attempt to shift the situation to something more favorable for you. That approach doesn't really accomplish anything. You didn't "disprove his point", you tried to argue about something else.

If you are having a two-car family replace both of their ICE vehicles, to Leaf + hybrid, why not go all the way, and replace them with Leaf + Volt? That would reduce gas use more than any of your proposed combos, if both cars are driven regularly.

 

[DrInnovation]

..snip..
Vehicle decisions cannot be massed into some nation-wide average, as much as our jelly-filled heads desire that. ...

You dismiss looking at the average case with no support for that conclusion. Why is not the average or median or whatever relavent. You tell me to consider the "probability", that is the point of considering the average or median. Its the expected value. Its way more relavant than any individual case. (And I do respect your right to life off grid and make changes. But I'm also a pragmatist when it comes to innovation, and that is not how large scale change happens.)

..snip..

EREV reduces CO2 more than a BEV + ICE.

It appears that from your vantage point that makes perfect sense! And it's possible that most everyone wearing a 'Hello Kitty' backpack would agree!

Oh look argumentum ad hominem again.

Unfortunately, there are PLENTY of other options and combinations that disprove your point! Here are three:
- Let's start with a Leaf and a VW diesel. EV with no ICE-bloatware when appropriate, and five passengers, plenty of luggage, and 45-50 MPG on the road when necessary. No, emissions are not as good, but biodiesel and some injection tweaking can change that around except for NOx.

Maybe, though I have yet to see that one in detail. I'll do the computation when I get time.
2012 Volkswagen Passat Disel is 31/35/43 so maybe you could make a case if HWY miles are enough and one tweeks to the emissions.
2012 Volkswagen Golf (S6_ Diesel is 34mpg combined, 42 HW), so again maybe.
2012 Volkswagen Touareg (S8), Diesel is 19/22/28, not even in the running.

I do wish biodiesel was an option (ahh. If only ford had build their Reflex concept.)

If other family constraints push the ICE to be a truck/suv/awd or whatever, which is the more common case, the choice is pretty clear.
(Trucks/SUVs exceeds the numbers of cars, see http://www.bts.gov/publications/pocket_guide_to_transportation/2006/html/figure_11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
in which awd cars, cross over vehicles are still in with cars).

- How about a Leaf and a Gen1 Insight? The Insight is also passenger-limited like the Volt, and is also a hybrid, but even as an old-tech hybrid gets significantly better fuel economy and has cleaner emissions. Not fair?
- Ok, make it a Leaf and a Prius. Take it up a notch - Leaf and Prius with plug-in add-on. Now we have two vehicles with road-worthy EV performance and 100% electric drive capability (no, the Prius isn't a 90mph EV but that's ok). When in hybrid mode the Prius carries one more person, gets better fuel economy, has cleaner emissions than the Volt, and costs less even with the price of the add-on PHEV battery.

Sorry - if one's goal is teaching about the superiority of GM's green-halo attempt, please give it up (or take it to the vendor forum). I agree that this is getting wayyy off course. So long.

Both a Insight or Prius would be better, but I consider them to be Hybrids (HEV), not regular ICE. And a PHEV would be better yet.
The category of ICE for a vehicle does not include hybrids, if I ment a hybrid I would have said hybrid (or a subcategory like PHEV, EREV or other hybrid..
(Also note that on average hybrids account for < 3% of the cars on the road, so if people are going to change only 1 car, the Hybrid +BEV combination is an issue for only a small fraction of the country)

I'll be more precise, The EREV produces, on average, less CO2 than BEV+ICE, except when the MPG of the ICE is better than that of EREV. (This way I also better capture the Karma's position). The BEV is generally inconsequential in the decision. For the average American, A 40AER EREV provides sufficient EV performance/range, and its the long-trips that make the difference FOR THE AVERAGE case.

 

[DrInnovation]

..snip..

If you are having a two-car family replace both of their ICE vehicles, to Leaf + hybrid, why not go all the way, and replace them with Leaf + Volt? That would reduce gas use more than any of your proposed combos, if both cars are driven regularly.

Thanks for the comments Stephent. The question of Leaf + hybrid vs leaf + Volt will depend heavily on the travel model for the second car. If its very few miles, + the long family trips, a 50mpg hybrid could do better. Oddly, I'm not worried about those types of people. I think any family who is is that "green" will hopefully be doing a proper personal computation, as they are clearly above average in thinking green. :lol:.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i strongly considered Leaf/Volt since my commute is 12 miles. was 16. i took a significant pay cut more than 8 years ago to work locally. rarely miss the money, GREATLY enjoy the extra time at home. would only burn gas about 10 times a year. i was set to trade in my 2010 Prius for what i thought to be a finance of $5-6,000

previously, i worked 5-6 days a week and during the week, i was gone from home about 10½-11 hours due to driving time added to an 8 hour shift. now, i work 4 days a week and am away from home for about 11 hours and 10 minutes when not working mandatory overtime (the previous job was nearly all voluntary overtime. Saturday was always around a half day)

but the price put me out of the market. oh well

 

[AndyH]

..snip..
Vehicle decisions cannot be massed into some nation-wide average, as much as our jelly-filled heads desire that. ...

You dismiss looking at the average case with no support for that conclusion.

I didn't expect one really needed support - aren't ALL vehicle choices personal? Average is second order. Besides, considering the twists and turns of this, complete with some interesting application examples, it didn't seem that you were still in 'average mode' anyway.

Maybe, though I have yet to see that one in detail. I'll do the computation when I get time.
2012 Volkswagen Passat Disel is 31/35/43 so maybe you could make a case if HWY miles are enough and one tweeks to the emissions.
2012 Volkswagen Golf (S6_ Diesel is 34mpg combined, 42 HW), so again maybe.
2012 Volkswagen Touareg (S8), Diesel is 19/22/28, not even in the running.

I do wish biodiesel was an option (ahh. If only ford had build their Reflex concept.)

I don't consider the new diesels an option any longer. The combination of larger engines and the latest emission controls have hurt overall efficiency. They're much, much cleaner - in the same tier/bin as gas cars now - but with higher fuel prices than gasoline and only marginally better economy... Going to an earlier diesel gets more room and better economy. The earlier fuel injector's larger orifices are a better match to biodiesel's higher fuel viscosity, and the lower injection pressure reduces fuel oxidation and deposit formation. The gain is an oxygenated fuel that is essentially carbon neutral and has lower particulates, but the downside is an increase in NOx. The T'reg is a rebadged Porsche Cayenne - not an economy car.

I'll be more precise, The EREV produces, on average, less CO2 than BEV+ICE, except when the MPG of the ICE is better than that of EREV. (This way I also better capture the Karma's position). The BEV is generally inconsequential in the decision. For the average American, A 40AER EREV provides sufficient EV performance/range, and its the long-trips that make the difference FOR THE AVERAGE case.

Thanks for these comments. The only thing I'd like to add is that this is an EV site. Many of the members are EV 'repeat offenders.' EVs are being marketed to hybrid owners - and many of the folks here have or have replaced their hybrids with an EV. For many here, moving from an EV to a hybrid is not seen as going in the 'right' direction. The sales pitch might be more effective with 'joe public' or folks from another hybrid forum - these are folks that need to hear that there's a better way. I hope that makes sense, Doc, and doesn't seem threatening as that's not the intention. It just seems to me that some of the message is out of place here...

edit..spelling

 

[AndyH]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/01/gm-chevrolet-vault-fire_n_1123830.html

NEW YORK -- General Motors will buy Chevrolet Volts back from any owner who is afraid the electric cars will catch fire, the company's CEO said Thursday.

In an exclusive interview with The Associated Press, CEO Dan Akerson insisted that the cars are safe, but said the company will purchase the Volts because it wants to keep customers happy. Three fires have broken out in Volts after side-impact crash tests done by the federal government.

Akerson said investigators are looking at spilled coolant as one possible cause of the fires, although he said the coolant itself did not catch fire. Investigators are looking at everything from circuit boards to the way the battery cells are packaged into the Volt's larger T-shaped battery pack, he said.

Investigators have some promising leads but no conclusions yet, Akerson said.

 

[AndyH]

Bottom line - consider the possibility (probability?!) that one's determination of what should be 'best' might not work for others.

Wouldn't it be nice if some of you Leaf fans would actually follow what you write before participating in Volt bashing.

You're serious, aren't you?! :shock: Aren't you one of the people that came here from another forum to educate us on why your choice is better?! :lol: If you come to my house and tell me you don't like the carpeting, I get to tell you not to let the door hit you in the butt on the way out! While it's not quite the same here in forum land, it's bloody close - and that point was made earlier by 'one of your own' as well!

Nearly all of the Volt people here fully acknowledge that the Leaf works quite well for some people in certain situations, the Leaf a better choice for those people.

Yes, it appears that those in rational conversations have done exactly that! Including me, by the way.

But many Leaf participants in this thread can't ever accept the Volt as working in any situation.

In your opinion. Again - dump the attitude, remember where you are, and try again. I feel strongly you have something to contribute to this forum - feel free!

 

[Rusty]

that point was made earlier by 'one of your own' as well!

If you're referencing a comment I made, I'd much prefer you say:

that suggestion was made earlier ...

I made no point of it, nor was it in any way a demand or order. I'm not in a position to do so, nor do I wish to be.

And please don't bash one Volt owner against another (such as with your 'one of your own' comment). I prefer to think that we all speak and think for ourselves. So please don't ascribe to all Volt owners my opinions, or the particular opinions of any other Volt owner or non-owner to any other matrix cross reference. I suspect there are some fellow Leaf owners who's opinions on some topics you likewise don't share...

Within limits people are free to speak for themselves, and thus make their own favorable, passive, and/or poor impressions.

And no, normally I don't much read this thread. I dropped by for some light hearted banter, compared to the rest of my day :- ]