Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[MrIanB]

2013 Volt Review from autoblog.com


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/25/2013-chevrolet-volt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ian B

 

[mark1313]

I keep reading about $10k discounts on the Volts but every internet visit I do to AZ dealerships on the Volt show $500 to $1000 discount..

Can anyone confirm a $10k discount for a Volt in the USA ..I would be willing to buy one out of state if i could find one that greatly discounted..

 

[cwerdna]

I keep reading about $10k discounts on the Volts but every internet visit I do to AZ dealerships on the Volt show $500 to $1000 discount..

Can anyone confirm a $10k discount for a Volt in the USA ..I would be willing to buy one out of state if i could find one that greatly discounted..

I've asked the same question at http://priuschat.com/threads/gm-discounts-volt-by-10-000-3x-4x-more-than-us-average.115669/page-3#post-1646551" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It sounds like it's misreporting that's been perpetuated by MANY news sources.

I'm very curious as to where on truecar.com they claim this. Are they deducting the $7500 Federal tax credit and state incentives like the $1500 CVRP to arrive at the "$10K discounts"?

 

[DaveEV]

I'm very curious as to where on truecar.com they claim this. Are they deducting the $7500 Federal tax credit and state incentives like the $1500 CVRP to arrive at the "$10K discounts"?

I suspect that they are getting to $10k by looking at the lease rate where the tax credit effectively reduces the MSRP. Add in a bit of dealer incentives and you have your $10k.

 

[Cheezmo]

wondering if the knowledge that one can fall back on gas means subconsciously one drives less efficiently in the Volt than they would in a limited range EV where driving efficiently can be the difference between 65 miles or 90 miles?

In my experience, no. In fact since the estimate of how many miles you can get on a charge is (like the Leaf) based on recent driving habits, I find myself trying to drive more efficiently to get the range on a full charge to read higher (without too much success, I have a pretty lead foot, but I have gotten it up to 44).

On the Volt forum there was a thread discussing "gas anxiety" as opposed to "range anxiety". I have seen that in my wife, she goes to extremes sometimes to avoid using gas. But, it isn't the end of the world like it would be in the Leaf if she messes up.

Also, if the "risk" of trying to stretch the EV range is that you burn a little gas vs. being turtled by the side of the road, I am more likely to try to do that.

Can't say that mentality applies across the board, but that is how it plays out in my family.

 

[scottf200]

Some folks on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with high 40K and low 50K miles. Wow. I'm fairly amazed they are able to get as many EV mile as they do. That is a lot of plugging in at places other then home no doubt.

The highest is a 2012 even. I got 42 MPG driving 70 MPH (battery miles not included!) so not a bad highway car (see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=224537#p224537

"Home" table sorted on miles (see triangle pointed down). Click on any column to sort.

 

[RegGuheert]

Some folks on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with high 40K and low 50K miles. Wow. I'm fairly amazed they are able to get as many EV mile as they do. That is a lot of plugging in at places other then home no doubt.

Interesting that the leader is in AZ with over 25,000 EV miles. It appears that the Volt battery is holding up well in the hot climates! Kudos to GM!

 

[edatoakrun]

Some folks on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with high 40K and low 50K miles. Wow. I'm fairly amazed they are able to get as many EV mile as they do. That is a lot of plugging in at places other then home no doubt.

Interesting that the leader is in AZ with over 25,000 EV miles. It appears that the Volt battery is holding up well in the hot climates! Kudos to GM!

Actually, couldn't a volt have lost over 30% of capacity, and the EV range could be be unaffected, since it was only using ~11 of the ~16 kWh capacity when new?

Does the volt report total battery capacity to the driver, as the LEAF does (inaccurately, apparently) with the capacity bar display?

 

[DaveEV]

Some folks on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with high 40K and low 50K miles. Wow. I'm fairly amazed they are able to get as many EV mile as they do. That is a lot of plugging in at places other then home no doubt.

Interesting that the leader is in AZ with over 25,000 EV miles. It appears that the Volt battery is holding up well in the hot climates! Kudos to GM!

Would be very interesting to see if he's seeing any capacity loss at all - the Volt reports how much EV energy you use with every charge...

Actually, couldn't a volt have lost over 30% of capacity, and the EV range could be be unaffected, since it was only using ~11 of the ~16 kWh capacity when new?

It's possible that the Volt expands it's usable SOC range as the battery degrades, but that would only accelerate usable capacity loss down the road. I highly doubt that GM is doing this. If someone had pack voltage readings when full and empty, it'd be easy to compare.

Does the volt report total battery capacity to the driver, as the LEAF does (inaccurately, apparently) with the capacity bar display?

I think the Volt has a SOC bar chart, but more importantly, it reports total EV energy used on a charge cycle to 0.1 kWh. From browsing the Volt forums, IIRC, I've seen values range from 9.7 kWh for older Volts, to 10.7 kWh for 2013 Volts (which have slightly larger batteries and slightly more usable capacity than earlier models).

Either way - with the Volt you always have backup with the ICE. While losing 20-30% causes you to lose EV range, it doesn't affect the functionality of the vehicle at all and you still get a good amount of EV range per charge since you can comfortably drain it without worry.

 

[RegGuheert]

Actually, couldn't a volt have lost over 30% of capacity, and the EV range could be be unaffected, since it was only using ~11 of the ~16 kWh capacity when new?

Sure, it could, but if anyone had seen that on the Volt side, I would expect there would be some discussion about it somewhere. Even if it were the case, they are covered below 80% by their warranty, IIRC.

Does the volt report total battery capacity to the driver, as the LEAF does (inaccurately, apparently) with the capacity bar display?

I think I read they have a fairly direct way to calculate usable kWh withou the need of an external meter of any sorts. I can only imagine it is more accurate than the one in the LEAF! :shock:

 

[scottf200]

Either way - with the Volt you always have backup with the ICE. While losing 20-30% causes you to lose EV range, it doesn't affect the functionality of the vehicle at all and you still get a good amount of EV range per charge since you can comfortably drain it without worry.

LEAF and Volt owner adric22 had a great thread on this.

Volt Vs. Leaf practical range comparison
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

Actually, couldn't a volt have lost over 30% of capacity, and the EV range could be be unaffected, since it was only using ~11 of the ~16 kWh capacity when new?

Sure, it could, but if anyone had seen that on the Volt side, I would expect there would be some discussion about it somewhere. Even if it were the case, they are covered below 80% by their warranty, IIRC.

Does the volt report total battery capacity to the driver, as the LEAF does (inaccurately, apparently) with the capacity bar display?

I think I read they have a fairly direct way to calculate usable kWh withou the need of an external meter of any sorts. I can only imagine it is more accurate than the one in the LEAF! :shock:

Looks to me like GM considers capacity of 10% to 30% as determined by GM, as normal, and not covered by warranty.

And it doesn't seem to state whether that is 30% of the ~16 kWh total capacity, or of the lesser amount available.

Anyone know more details?


http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Cars/2012%20Volt/Model%20Overview/02_PDFs/12_Volt_Limited_Warranty.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[SanDust]

The same warranty applies to the HOV units with the same battery but covers the battery for 10 years/100,000 mile, so I think that's probably a more realistic time period for a 10%-30% loss of capacity. I've seen a few quotes from Andrew Farah, who I think is the chief engineer, that the battery will last at least 12 years in a place like Arizona and at least 15 years in more moderate climates. You would think that since the Volt uses less of the cells than the Leaf that the range could be maintained by increasing the SOC window over time. On the other hand, this would probably hasten capacity loss so maybe that's not the strategy. (In any event capacity loss would be based on the cell).

Farah has also said that Volt owners will experience a gradual decrease in range until the point where the cells are no longer capable of producing enough power, at which time the car would be kaput. Nothing solid on this but rumors are that this might be 18-20 years out.

 

[edatoakrun]

The same warranty applies to the HOV units with the same battery but covers the battery for 10 years/100,000 mile, so I think that's probably a more realistic time period for a 10%-30% loss of capacity. I've seen a few quotes from Andrew Farah, who I think is the chief engineer, that the battery will last at least 12 years in a place like Arizona and at least 15 years in more moderate climates. You would think that since the Volt uses less of the cells than the Leaf that the range could be maintained by increasing the SOC window over time. On the other hand, this would probably hasten capacity loss so maybe that's not the strategy. (In any event capacity loss would be based on the cell).

Farah has also said that Volt owners will experience a gradual decrease in range until the point where the cells are no longer capable of producing enough power, at which time the car would be kaput. Nothing solid on this but rumors are that this might be 18-20 years out.

Using less of the battery capacity in each charge cycle, as the volt does (at least initially, before the battery capacity degrades) and the ATM battery cooling (if you can find an electrical outlet where you park on hot summer afternoons) should both make any EV battery last longer.

However, using a greater proportion of the available capacity, and the greater number of charge cycles, such as is required for a 16 kWh total (when new) capacity battery like the Volt's, to drive the same number of daily battery miles (possible only with daytime recharging, of course) as an EV with a 24 kWh battery, will probably cause earlier battery capacity loss.

I don't see any additional facts about the Volt battery Warranty in your statement above.

Does anyone else know any additional info?

Looks to me like the written guarantee covers 70%, but even that is unlikely to be of much use to Volt owners with premature battery degradation, since the terms are so poorly defined, and that 70% is only as determined by GM.

 

[scottf200]

2,851 - Sept 2012 is another new sales month for the Volt. [2,831 - Aug 2012]

Investors: Sales & Production page: http://www.gm.com/content/gmcom/home/company/investors/sales-production.content_pages_news_us_en_2012_sep_gmsales.~content~gmcom~home~company~investors~sales-production.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PDF http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2012/GM_US_Deliveries_August_2012.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Via TechTom at gm-volt.com

 

[DrInnovation]

Some folks on http://www.voltstats.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with high 40K and low 50K miles. Wow. I'm fairly amazed they are able to get as many EV mile as they do. That is a lot of plugging in at places other then home no doubt.

Interesting that the leader is in AZ with over 25,000 EV miles. It appears that the Volt battery is holding up well in the hot climates! Kudos to GM!

Would be very interesting to see if he's seeing any capacity loss at all - the Volt reports how much EV energy you use with every charge...

Actually, couldn't a volt have lost over 30% of capacity, and the EV range could be be unaffected, since it was only using ~11 of the ~16 kWh capacity when new?

It's possible that the Volt expands it's usable SOC range as the battery degrades, but that would only accelerate usable capacity loss down the road. I highly doubt that GM is doing this. If someone had pack voltage readings when full and empty, it'd be easy to compare.

Does the volt report total battery capacity to the driver, as the LEAF does (inaccurately, apparently) with the capacity bar display?

I think the Volt has a SOC bar chart, but more importantly, it reports total EV energy used on a charge cycle to 0.1 kWh. From browsing the Volt forums, IIRC, I've seen values range from 9.7 kWh for older Volts, to 10.7 kWh for 2013 Volts (which have slightly larger batteries and slightly more usable capacity than earlier models).

Either way - with the Volt you always have backup with the ICE. While losing 20-30% causes you to lose EV range, it doesn't affect the functionality of the vehicle at all and you still get a good amount of EV range per charge since you can comfortably drain it without worry.

I monitor my Volt with an OBDII.. and my raw SOC levels (something like gids) has not changed in 14 months. It does depend on temperature but set a new personal record (82.1miles) over the weekend so I'm pretty sure I'm not feeling any loss. I put up a web page with map of SOC battery levels along the route for those that might be interested.

Just curious.. I found the PID for the SOC in the volt because its a requirement to report SOC in a hybrid it for EPA testing, where they want to monitor battery SOC. Does the Leaf respond to OBDII PID 01 5B (Type precent Formula for torque is A*100/255) to get percent A*BATSIZE/255.0 to get kWh). Is that what the GUID meter is measuring?

I think some of the the 9.7 to 10.3 (for 2012 volts) is because it does not include power used while the car is off, e.g. TMS for cooling while the car and the center stack is off.

The 10.7kWh is a measurement from a different (larger) battery, so not comparable.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I monitor my Volt with an OBDII.. and my raw SOC levels (something like gids) has not changed in 14 months..

I hope for your sake, it isn't as inaccurate as the gid count...

Repeating my earlier question, do you know if your total battery capacity in kWh, not the amount of kWh in the (possibly variable?) fraction you are allowed to access, has declined since new?

How did you find that out, if you were able to?

 

[DaveEV]

Just curious.. I found the PID for the SOC in the volt because its a requirement to report SOC in a hybrid it for EPA testing, where they want to monitor battery SOC. Does the Leaf respond to OBDII PID 01 5B (Type precent Formula for torque is A*100/255) to get percent A*BATSIZE/255.0 to get kWh). Is that what the GUID meter is measuring?

Good question - probably best asked in one of the CAN threads like this one: LEAF CANbus decoding. (Open discussion)

 

[DrInnovation]

...I monitor my Volt with an OBDII.. and my raw SOC levels (something like gids) has not changed in 14 months..

I hope for your sake, it isn't as inaccurate as the gid count...

Repeating my earlier question, do you know if your total battery capacity in kWh, not the amount of kWh in the (possibly variable?) fraction you are allowed to access, has declined since new?

How did you find that out, if you were able to?

Since i am reading out battery SOC in absolute levels specified by sae standards, and as used by EPA testing, I expect its a correct measure of the battery of absolute level.
And since i am getting consistent readings (at similar temps) after a year. I also know I get same SOC usage on the same trip.


It is possible the computer is misreporting the battery levels, since the measurement is based on measurements reported on the bus, but traction battery is an EPA mandated measurement and I would expect that misreporting that could some formal violation, like misreporting emission data etc.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I monitor my Volt with an OBDII.. and my raw SOC levels (something like gids) has not changed in 14 months..

I hope for your sake, it isn't as inaccurate as the gid count...

Repeating my earlier question, do you know if your total battery capacity in kWh, not the amount of kWh in the (possibly variable?) fraction you are allowed to access, has declined since new?

How did you find that out, if you were able to?

Since i am reading out battery SOC...

I don't follow what you are saying.

Do you get a report of the SOC level, and is that of total battery capacity, or only of that fraction of total capacity available to you?

Or, are you getting a report of kWh, either that stored in the total battery capacity, or the amount of kWh which will be made available to you?