Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

[scottf200]

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/chevy-throws-4-000-rebate-slow-selling-volt-213902418.html
Wonder how this affects leases.

Lower prices have worked for the Fit and LEAF. For better discussions and talk of the available deals you should go to the GM-Volt.com - "Chevy Volt Forums" then Forum: "Buying, Leasing & Selling - Chevy Volt"

 

[DaveEV]

Thinking about becoming a volt+leaf household. Two leafs aren't going to work, we need something for longer distances and there is very little charging infrastructure in Florida. Tesla would great, but that's just not in the budget.

If you can hold out for a few months it might be worth it - the '14 Volt is supposed to be announced soon... Maybe pick up a used car or hobble together your old ICE temporarily?

 

[evnow]

Irrespective of the size you use for the reply, I stand by my statement ;-)

We're talking 2006 when it wasn't clear the battery technology would work. It would definitely NOT have worked in a vehicle the size of an SUV or mini-van. You'd need too many cells and you'd end up with a vehicle which was too expensive. So those form factors weren't an option.

Ofcourse everyone knew the battery tech worked - they all had working cars by 2000. Remember EV1 ?

The same drivetrain will give less mileage on a CUV - but it would still sell more. After Outlander will probably have about 30 mile range ...

 

[SanDust]

Ofcourse everyone knew the battery tech worked - they all had working cars by 2000. Remember EV1 ?

The same drivetrain will give less mileage on a CUV - but it would still sell more. After Outlander will probably have about 30 mile range ...

The cells used in the EV-1 were based on a completely different chemistry. Knowing how they'd work really wasn't predictive of how the lithium cells would behave. Additionally, what everyone knew was that the chemistry used in the EV-1 wouldn't work -- the energy density simply wasn't there. The energy density of the lithium batteries was sufficient for a compact hatch but, and this was a big but, testing didn't start until the end of 2007, and you don't know if a new battery chemistry will work until you test it. Turns out it worked way better than GM thought it would, which is why (1) they decided to use more of cell and (2) it's going to last way longer than they thought. They can also offer a very good warranty on the pack. That's all good. However, remember that early pricing models for the Volt built in a larger number of battery pack failures, which is an indication of how dicey the technology was thought to be.

As for why the CUV/SUV is a terrible idea, on the highway every inch you raise the vehicle costs you a couple of miles of range. Add two inches of clearance and two more inches to the height of the vehicle and on the freeway things get ugly in a hurry. In this regard, the Outlander won't get anything close to 30 miles of electric range driving on the freeway. Could in fact easily be under 20 miles. That's just the physics of moving objects through air. Drag goes up by the square of the velocity, the power needed to overcome drag goes up by the cube of the velocity, and raising the vehicle and making it taller increases both the Cd and the frontal area.

As for thinking that a SUV/CUV with much lower electric range and much lower MPG vehicle would have sold better than the Volt, this opinion isn't supported by anything we know. The only vehicle fitting this description which has been released is the RAV4, and it's sales have been a disaster. In some ways I'm glad this is the case because there isn't any reason to bring out an electric SUV/CUV. A hatch gives you all the functionality you'd get in a CUV. It just gives you the functionality in a vastly more efficient package. With battery technology being what it is, going the more efficient route makes more sense. No reason to encourage bad decisions about what electric vehicles to develop.

 

[GRA]

Ofcourse everyone knew the battery tech worked - they all had working cars by 2000. Remember EV1 ?

The same drivetrain will give less mileage on a CUV - but it would still sell more. After Outlander will probably have about 30 mile range ...

The cells used in the EV-1 were based on a completely different chemistry. Knowing how they'd work really wasn't predictive of how the lithium cells would behave. Additionally, what everyone knew was that the chemistry used in the EV-1 wouldn't work -- the energy density simply wasn't there. The energy density of the lithium batteries was sufficient for a compact hatch but, and this was a big but, testing didn't start until the end of 2007, and you don't know if a new battery chemistry will work until you test it. Turns out it worked way better than GM thought it would, which is why (1) they decided to use more of cell and (2) it's going to last way longer than they thought. They can also offer a very good warranty on the pack. That's all good. However, remember that early pricing models for the Volt built in a larger number of battery pack failures, which is an indication of how dicey the technology was thought to be.

As for why the CUV/SUV is a terrible idea, on the highway every inch you raise the vehicle costs you a couple of miles of range. Add two inches of clearance and two more inches to the height of the vehicle and on the freeway things get ugly in a hurry. In this regard, the Outlander won't get anything close to 30 miles of electric range driving on the freeway. Could in fact easily be under 20 miles. That's just the physics of moving objects through air. Drag goes up by the square of the velocity, the power needed to overcome drag goes up by the cube of the velocity, and raising the vehicle and making it taller increases both the Cd and the frontal area.

As for thinking that a SUV/CUV with much lower electric range and much lower MPG vehicle would have sold better than the Volt, this opinion isn't supported by anything we know. The only vehicle fitting this description which has been released is the RAV4, and it's sales have been a disaster. In some ways I'm glad this is the case because there isn't any reason to bring out an electric SUV/CUV. A hatch gives you all the functionality you'd get in a CUV. It just gives you the functionality in a vastly more efficient package. With battery technology being what it is, going the more efficient route makes more sense. No reason to encourage bad decisions about what electric vehicles to develop.

I disagree with most of the above, except the bit about the EV-1's battery. Yes, a CUV would get worse mileage than a lower hatch, but we're not comparing it to a hatch, we're comparing it to other CUVs. ISTR the Escape hybrid did okay, sales-wise, and there are a lot more hybrid CUVs on the market now, or soon to arrive. Their sole advantage is better mpg compared to conventional CUVs.

A hatch doesn't give you _all_ the functionality of a CUV, it gives you _more_ functionality than a sedan. I've certainly appreciated the extra cargo volume of CUVs/wagons on many occasions, even though I knew it wasn't the most aerodynamic configuration. Strictly speaking, I don't need a CUV; a small AWD station wagon is fine (and is what my '88 Subaru GL Turbo and even my '03 Forester have been, IMO). The '88 had all of 4.5 inches of ground clearance, but since I rarely drove it on unplowed roads and didn't take it off-road, that wasn't a problem. The Forester has 3" more clearance, is larger in all dimensions but gets better mileage despite having 50 more horsepower and being heavier, owing to a better Cd and various other improvements.

I'm not sure why the RAV4EV is even brought into the discussion, as we're talking about PHEVs. But there's no doubt that the RAV4EV's $50k MSRP has been perceived as far too high. Drop the MSRP to $40k as Toyota has effectively done with their rebates, and the car sells a lot better. Add AWD and QC capability and it would take off, because it's the sole sub-$50k BEV with enough range to cover almost anyone's routine daily range without anxiety and without the need to adapt driver behavior.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Add us to the volt+leaf household list... actually two volts plus leaf when you factor in extended family. Say what you will about this bastardized technology, it serves an important purpose (imo) in the evolution of the ev. We are making a 600 mile road trip next weekend and even if we had all the money in the world, a model s wouldn't cut it

 

[scottf200]

Add us to the volt+leaf household list... actually two volts plus leaf when you factor in extended family. Say what you will about this bastardized technology, it serves an important purpose (imo) in the evolution of the ev. We are making a 600 mile road trip next weekend and even if we had all the money in the world, a model s wouldn't cut it

Congrats! Let us know how you like it. I've been taking more and more road trips (2 people) in our Volt. It serves that purpose well from a comfortable ride with great gas mileage. It likes 65 just fine but I've been on 70 MPH speedlimit highways (flat) and still got 40 MPG. Hopefully you'll join gm-volt.com wih the other volt+leaf open minded folks.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Hopefully you'll join gm-volt.com wih the other volt+leaf open minded folks.

Is there a more credible discussion site that doesn't filter their stories so much?

Besides all the other filtering there, they completely removed a big thread about a serious unintended acceleration incident.

 

[scottf200]

Hopefully you'll join gm-volt.com wih the other volt+leaf open minded folks.

Is there a more credible discussion site that doesn't filter their stories so much?
Besides all the other filtering there, they completely removed a big thread about a serious unintended acceleration incident.

It's available here: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?47465-An-Open-Letter-to-GM-Fix-this-before-someone-dies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As well it was talked about on the home page even: http://gm-volt.com/2013/05/30/does-the-volt-have-a-software-glitch-that-could-kill-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GM is actually looking at the car. Seriously though 300,000,000+ miles on all the USA Volts (using OnStar) so it is pretty reliable. Compare to other cars out there! There is a question how the user did this and if they pressed the Power button or the Mode button (2" apart, one bright lite-up blue, and curved edges).

If you go to google you can find other volt forums. Here is the search: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chevrolet+volt+forum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Weatherman]

Add us to the volt+leaf household list... actually two volts plus leaf when you factor in extended family. Say what you will about this bastardized technology, it serves an important purpose (imo) in the evolution of the ev. We are making a 600 mile road trip next weekend and even if we had all the money in the world, a model s wouldn't cut it

I may be joining you, shortly. I'm checking out local dealers to see if they have any crystal reds in stock and are willing to give an exceptionally good deal on a low-mileage lease (24,000 miles over 3 years).

I'm getting tired of worrying about my rapidly decaying LEAF battery, but, since I'm committed to NMAC for the next two years, might just as well use the LEAF for the short trips (20 mile round-trip or less) and use the Volt when I don't want to have to worry about running out of battery charge.

 

[evnow]

However, remember that early pricing models for the Volt built in a larger number of battery pack failures, which is an indication of how dicey the technology was thought to be.

No diff in all this whether you build a 4 seater compact or a useful CUV.

As for thinking that a SUV/CUV with much lower electric range and much lower MPG vehicle would have sold better than the Volt, this opinion isn't supported by anything we know.

All current CUVs cost more and give less mpg. Case closed.

 

[DrInnovation]

I certainly agree and something like the PHEV Outlander is going to have a lot of success. Comparables of amount of gas used (normal EV and some gas driving) would be impressive. I've gotten 40 MPG in the Volt at 65 MPH so certainly above most cars out there. I've taken more and more road trips lately and it is very comfortable for two adults.

I think the fault lies with the likes of BoB Lutz - who wanted a sportsy car rather than what would really sell well. They should have started with a crossover/mini-van rather than a compact.

I think GM was (maybe still is) a bit gun shy of the SUV/CUV market given the beating they took on the two-mode. It made big difference in fuel used, but less noticeable in MPG. More importantly they learned the market segment there is less worried about MPG and far more conservative in choices, so maybe less likely to be an early adopter of high-tech EREV. GM does just fine in the SUV market, does not need as much of a goose there.

To regain some green cred they need a vehicle that outcompetes other efficient cars (e.g. Prius) , a market where they really really needed something. The smaller sportier Volt built a bit on their history of muscle cars, hopefully creating phenomena car with power+green -- (which one might call the Volt-Hulk effect, haha).

I just hope they are over their CUV fears and a bring one out in 2015 or so..

 

[MrIanB]

Add us to the volt+leaf household list... actually two volts plus leaf when you factor in extended family. Say what you will about this bastardized technology, it serves an important purpose (imo) in the evolution of the ev. We are making a 600 mile road trip next weekend and even if we had all the money in the world, a model s wouldn't cut it

I may be joining you, shortly. I'm checking out local dealers to see if they have any crystal reds in stock and are willing to give an exceptionally good deal on a low-mileage lease (24,000 miles over 3 years).

I'm getting tired of worrying about my rapidly decaying LEAF battery, but, since I'm committed to NMAC for the next two years, might just as well use the LEAF for the short trips (20 mile round-trip or less) and use the Volt when I don't want to have to worry about running out of battery charge.

I traded my Leaf in April 2013 for your reason w battery since I have over two years on the lease here in Texas and summer coming. I think it will be brutal on the battery and I need all of my range. I still have a second 2011 Leaf w 4,800 miles with all bars and the Volt is for the long trips and around town. Still love the Leaf and the Volt complements it very well.

Ian B

 

[scottf200]

We are seeing various 2013's getting 50 EV miles and some efficient drivers getting 60.
A couple folks:

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Hopefully you'll join gm-volt.com wih the other volt+leaf open minded folks.

Is there a more credible discussion site that doesn't filter their stories so much?
Besides all the other filtering there, they completely removed a big thread about a serious unintended acceleration incident.

It's available here: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?47465-An-Open-Letter-to-GM-Fix-this-before-someone-dies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As well it was talked about on the home page even: http://gm-volt.com/2013/05/30/does-the-volt-have-a-software-glitch-that-could-kill-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GM is actually looking at the car. Seriously though 300,000,000+ miles on all the USA Volts (using OnStar) so it is pretty reliable. Compare to other cars out there! There is a question how the user did this and if they pressed the Power button or the Mode button (2" apart, one bright lite-up blue, and curved edges).

If you go to google you can find other volt forums. Here is the search: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chevrolet+volt+forum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cool thanks. I had seen a post from WOP that said they moved it to the moderators section but then a couldn't find it anymore and assumed it was hidden.

It may be pretty reliable, but these electric cars are largely run by computer and computers crash and programs can go a-wire. The key is to have a fail safe design that depowers the vehicle rather than accelerate it.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I may be joining you, shortly. I'm checking out local dealers to see if they have any crystal reds in stock and are willing to give an exceptionally good deal on a low-mileage lease (24,000 miles over 3 years).

I'm getting tired of worrying about my rapidly decaying LEAF battery, but, since I'm committed to NMAC for the next two years, might just as well use the LEAF for the short trips (20 mile round-trip or less) and use the Volt when I don't want to have to worry about running out of battery charge.

FWIW with leather, backup camera and shiney wheels I got $250/mo for 10k miles/yr nothing down other than trading in a 2001 odyssey with 140k miles, some body damage, and some mechanical problems...edmunds valued at $3k-ish, presumably could have done better selling myself but with some of the issues I wasn't sure I wanted to deal with it.

 

[Weatherman]

I may be joining you, shortly. I'm checking out local dealers to see if they have any crystal reds in stock and are willing to give an exceptionally good deal on a low-mileage lease (24,000 miles over 3 years).

I'm getting tired of worrying about my rapidly decaying LEAF battery, but, since I'm committed to NMAC for the next two years, might just as well use the LEAF for the short trips (20 mile round-trip or less) and use the Volt when I don't want to have to worry about running out of battery charge.

FWIW with leather, backup camera and shiney wheels I got $250/mo for 10k miles/yr nothing down other than trading in a 2001 odyssey with 140k miles, some body damage, and some mechanical problems...edmunds valued at $3k-ish, presumably could have done better selling myself but with some of the issues I wasn't sure I wanted to deal with it.

That's remarkably good. Where did you go to get that deal?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

That's remarkably good. Where did you go to get that deal?

Autonation in Delray. Talk to Doug or Jeremy the sales manager he drives a volt himself, seem like decent guys as car salesman go, of course they try to get more out of you, but word on the street gm is up to their armpits in volts, so stand your ground, I was surprised they went for it. Of course that old minivan will be magically transformed into a $6k car tomorrow, but that's how they make their living

 

[Weatherman]

Autonation in Delray. Talk to Doug or Jeremy the sales manager he drives a volt himself, seem like decent guys as car salesman go, of course they try to get more out of you, but word on the street gm is up to their armpits in volts, so stand your ground, I was surprised they went for it. Of course that old minivan will be magically transformed into a $6k car tomorrow, but that's how they make their living

I was hoping you'd say Autonation. Supposedly each of the Autonation dealers "share inventory". The Autonation dealer in Ft. Lauderdale has a crystal red in stock. Perhaps Delray would be willing to snag one of Ft. Lauderale's Volts in order to make a deal.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

That's remarkably good. Where did you go to get that deal?

Autonation in Delray. Talk to Doug or Jeremy the sales manager he drives a volt himself, seem like decent guys as car salesman go, of course they try to get more out of you, but word on the street gm is up to their armpits in volts, so stand your ground, I was surprised they went for it. Of course that old minivan will be magically transformed into a $6k car tomorrow, but that's how they make their living

I don't get what GM is thinking. They have 9200+ Volts in dealer inventory and at least until recently where still making more. Meanwhile sales have been around 1300-1600. Taking last months 1600 means they have 6-7 months of inventory already on dealer lots. That 2013s. And 2014s should have announced pricing any day now unless they somehow postpone the 2014s. In my area, dealers still have a good number of never owned 2012s. The GM CEO recently commented that the Volt v2 is going to be 7-10k less expensive without de-contenting.

All in all it seems that GM is going to have to get serious about unloading Volts this summer. I can only imagine they will have some huge incentives going on to clear the 2013s and especially 2012s.

I would wait to see what GM comes up with. Those 9200 cars aren't going anywhere soon. Dealers in my area have been surprisingly unwilling to deal. Meanwhile Nissan is practically giving away Leafs.