Giving up on being an ICE free household

[davidcary]

People who use airline travel and long for SUVs are not generally the ones who try to go "ICE free." That idea was doomed from the start, assuming the original post wasn't a troll...

Our vacation this summer was in Eastern Europe. How would you get there? Take a ferry?

I do not long an SUV. But the DCQC charging stations availability in Portland dropped drastically in the last few months. Tomorrow we need to do a 67 miles RT. In the summer is not a problem. But in the winter with colder temperatures and the need to use defog, it pushes the newer Leaf to the limit. There are two DCQC stations along the freeway. One is down, the other was up 11 days ago. I refused to use public L2 since the beginning, since I do not believe it is the way of the future. I would have to use it tomorrow if the DCQC is down.

Unless the DCQC charging stations availability improves, by fall we will consider a third ICE car. And will likely be a SUV 4x4.

"Refused to use public L2 since the beginning" Sounds like you are practical and not dogmatic. Not excessively principled. Just what we need to gain future acceptance of EV's.

Like really L2 is never the answer? Malls, movies, restaurants - any time you are parked for an hour or more.

And your solution is to buy a 4x4 SUV? Maybe you should move to SF and you could easily go carbon free?

Honestly, the cold snowy areas are worse to live in for the environment than a moderate one. Particularly if it means you need to drive a 4x4 SUV. My huge house uses less energy than a 4x4 SUV driven 5,000 miles a year. So moving seems like a better idea.

 

[apvbguy]

People who use airline travel and long for SUVs are not generally the ones who try to go "ICE free.

do you have any kind of real data to back up this assertion?

 

[camasleaf]

Or not vacation on another continent

Not an option for us, our parents still live there. With all the money I spent over the years to travel there I could easily afford a Tesla or two.

 

[GRA]

<snip>
I do not long an SUV. But the DCQC charging stations availability in Portland dropped drastically in the last few months. Tomorrow we need to do a 67 miles RT. In the summer is not a problem. But in the winter with colder temperatures and the need to use defog, it pushes the newer Leaf to the limit. There are two DCQC stations along the freeway. One is down, the other was up 11 days ago. I refused to use public L2 since the beginning, since I do not believe it is the way of the future. I would have to use it tomorrow if the DCQC is down.

Unless the DCQC charging stations availability improves, by fall we will consider a third ICE car. And will likely be a SUV 4x4.

"Refused to use public L2 since the beginning" Sounds like you are practical and not dogmatic. Not excessively principled. Just what we need to gain future acceptance of EV's.

Like really L2 is never the answer? Malls, movies, restaurants - any time you are parked for an hour or more.

Pay L2 at the places you suggest only makes sense if you've had to travel a significant distance to get to them (assuming you normally charge at home), and for most people that's not very common for local attractions, only regional ones. For example, in my home city there are a fair number of recently installed L2s (Blinks, unfortunately), but they are rarely used even though there are restaurants, a movie multiplex etc. within easy walking distance. Why? Because if you go 10-15 miles in any direction, you'll find a similar collection of attractions, so we only get local traffic. We've got a mall in town, too, but the same thing applies.

So, what kind of regional attractions would make sense for public L2? Sports stadiums, high-end dining, and cultural venues (opera, theater, museums etc.) that aren't representative of what's normally available locally. Living in the Bay Area, that means that public L2s make sense in the south bay (pro hockey/music), San Francisco (pro sports/food/culture), Oakland (pro sports), Berkeley (dining) and a few other places.

As for the rest, public pay L1/L2 only makes sense for workplace and airport parking, except in those areas where most people live in apartments without charging facilities and park overnight in public garages, or on the street. Providing adequate numbers of chargers in the latter location and keeping them from being ICED is a very tall order.

'Free' L2 may make sense for local retailers as an advertising cost, just as 'free' parking does, but do we really want to encourage people to use more energy?

 

[adric22]

I would also agree it would be very difficult for my family to go completely ICE free. If we had a Telsa Model-S, I suspect we could do it. But not with low-range EVs. However, we have gone 99% gas-free since we have a Leaf and Volt combo. I would suggest to the original poster, that he look into a PHEV before going back to a straight ICE vehicle.

 

[RonDawg]

People who use airline travel and long for SUVs are not generally the ones who try to go "ICE free."

Our vacation this summer was in Eastern Europe. How would you get there? Take a ferry?

Or not vacation on another continent, perish the thought. How entitled we feel, in these waning days of the ecosystem...

I'm not sure how my desire to visit other countries and cultures makes me feel "entitled" or that it clashes with one's desire to conserve planet resources.

If anything, more Americans need to go outside of the US/Canada and see how the rest of the world lives, and that even in developed areas like western Europe, they can live well without the lifestyle that we as Americans have become accustomed to.

It's also nice to experience traveling across a country with a well thought out public transportation system, which is very eco-minded.

 

[DanCar]

People who use airline travel and long for SUVs are not generally the ones who try to go "ICE free."

Our vacation this summer was in Eastern Europe. How would you get there? Take a ferry?

Or not vacation on another continent, perish the thought. How entitled we feel, in these waning days of the ecosystem...

I'm not sure how my desire to visit other countries and cultures makes me feel "entitled" or that it clashes with one's desire to conserve planet resources.

You feel entitled to burn as much oil as you want and as a by product push a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere. If you don't care about your carbon footprint then you don't have sufficient desire to conserve the planet. I don't agree with that line of thinking but that is how some, most, or all alarmists think.

 

[apvbguy]

It's also nice to experience traveling across a country with a well thought out public transportation system, which is very eco-minded.

have you ever done a trip like that?

 

[RonDawg]

I'm not sure how my desire to visit other countries and cultures makes me feel "entitled" or that it clashes with one's desire to conserve planet resources.

You feel entitled to burn as much oil as you want and as a by product push a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere. If you don't care about your carbon footprint then you don't have sufficient desire to conserve the planet. I don't agree with that line of thinking but that is how some, most, or all alarmists think.

Well if I wanted to burn as much oil as I want, I would take advantage of the low fuel prices and buy myself a 5,000 lb, V-8 powered behemoth for my solo drive into work every day, and live in a gigantic house 60 miles from work.

One of the benefits of visiting other countries is seeing how people don't equate happiness with materialism, at least not to the level seen in the US. They get along just fine living in smaller homes and driving cars with smaller engines.

The environmental and other benefits (like less reliance on oil, meaning having to buy less of it from countries not friendly to us otherwise) of my using an electric vehicle for almost all of my driving needs far outweigh whatever additional impact I imposed by my occasional (as in, once every few years) foreign travel.

(Yes I know what you're saying, but I'm also pointing out the fallacy of thinking that foreign travel is only for "entitled" folks who don't give a rat's behind about the planet)

 

[RonDawg]

It's also nice to experience traveling across a country with a well thought out public transportation system, which is very eco-minded.

have you ever done a trip like that?

In the US, yes but it's not "well thought out." The furthest I've gone by train here is LA to Chicago. I've also gone from LA to San Diego, LA to the Bay Area, Seattle to LA, Denver to the Bay Area, Chicago to Seattle, and DC to NYC (on the high speed Acela) by train. I enjoyed these trips, but Amtrak is sorely underfunded except for the Northeast Corridor and Amtrak/local partnerships like the Amtrak Surfliner which runs to San Diego.

But in Western Europe? Germany, France, Switzerland, and the "Benelux" countries (Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg) have awesome long distance rail and local public transit. UK, not so much, but I have travelled from Zurich to London via high speed rail, stopping for a while in Paris, and I've also gone from Germany to London via Brussels on high speed rail.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Well if I wanted to burn as much oil as I want, I would take advantage of the low fuel prices and buy myself a 5,000 lb, V-8 powered behemoth for my solo drive into work every day, and live in a gigantic house 60 miles from work.

If that's what you want, then my first post was correct.

One of the benefits of visiting other countries is seeing how people don't equate happiness with materialism, at least not to the level seen in the US. They get along just fine living in smaller homes and driving cars with smaller engines.

One can see the same thing without leaving home, believe or not. If you need to be physically present in a place to learn from it, then you are atypical.

The environmental and other benefits (like less reliance on oil, meaning having to buy less of it from countries not friendly to us otherwise) of my using an electric vehicle for almost all of my driving needs far outweigh whatever additional impact I imposed by my occasional (as in, once every few years) foreign travel.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, although I'm more inclined to think that you're rationalizing. Kudos for driving an EV, but let's not think that it's some sort of environmental Papal Indulgence...

 

[RonDawg]

If that's what you want, then my first post was correct.

It's NOT what I want. I thought I was clear about that.

One of the benefits of visiting other countries is seeing how people don't equate happiness with materialism, at least not to the level seen in the US. They get along just fine living in smaller homes and driving cars with smaller engines.

One can see the same thing without leaving home, believe or not. If you need to be physically present in a place to learn from it, then you are atypical.

Sorry even with the Internet, it's not the same as being there. I can read about how Germany has an excellent nationwide train system. Or I can use it for myself.

No different than someone hearing and reading about how an EV is not all that much of a sacrifice to one's current lifestyle, and actually driving one yourself.

The environmental and other benefits (like less reliance on oil, meaning having to buy less of it from countries not friendly to us otherwise) of my using an electric vehicle for almost all of my driving needs far outweigh whatever additional impact I imposed by my occasional (as in, once every few years) foreign travel.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, although I'm more inclined to think that you're rationalizing. Kudos for driving an EV, but let's not think that it's some sort of environmental Papal Indulgence...

My driving an EV is a lot more environmentally friendly than driving a gas guzzling truck or SUV as a daily commuter, but how much rationalizing do you hear from owners of the latter?

 

[LeftieBiker]

Well if I wanted to burn as much oil as I want, I would take advantage of the low fuel prices and buy myself a 5,000 lb, V-8 powered behemoth for my solo drive into work every day, and live in a gigantic house 60 miles from work.

It's NOT what I want. I thought I was clear about that.

Nope.

 

[RonDawg]

Well if I wanted to burn as much oil as I want, I would take advantage of the low fuel prices and buy myself a 5,000 lb, V-8 powered behemoth for my solo drive into work every day, and live in a gigantic house 60 miles from work.

It's NOT what I want. I thought I was clear about that.

Nope.

I said IF I wanted to burn as much oil as I want, then I would do those things.

But I don't want to do that, so I drive a more sensible vehicle and live closer to work in a smaller home.

I don't know how that is so confusing.

 

[LeftieBiker]

When you write "as I want" you are writing that you do, in fact, want it. Now that we are clear that you do not, in fact, want to do that, perhaps you should stop writing that you do. Then no one will be confused.

 

[RonDawg]

The only one here that is confused is you.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I don't think there is any shame in making choices that are practical for your situation. there is a reason there are so many variations of gas vehicles and it's going to be a while before we have anything like that in EV's. I also think the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is very attractive, though now that we are ICE free and loving it, I don't see us turning back, we'll make do till an AWD SUV comes available and more affordable.

Going ICE free was practical for us. We were able to sell our hybrid highlander for $36K and buy a Tesla S. The Tesla S can hold practically as much as our highlander. We figure we will save roughly $30K over ten years in gas, compared to a comparable luxury sports car but be able to seat up to 5 adults and 2 kids, with additional stowing space in the front trunk. deducting the federal rebate, factoring in the gas savings and fantastic performance and the cash we got from the highlander sale, we feel that the Tesla S was a decent value proposition that was within reach for us, an excellent match for our Nissan Leaf. the Tesla Super Charging network is exploding, with four new locations going live just yesterday (that's 4 times 10 stalls!) and Tesla is slated to have 200 stations nationwide by the end of 2015. For our wet temperate climate I found the high performance tires to be impractical so I replaced the 21" wheels/tires that came with the car with 19" turbine wheels and the handling in the wet, even ice. is fantastic. Like any car, it needs chains for the porcelain ice we get in these parts on rare occasion. AWD would be even better. The X will have more clearance and be better in deeper snow, but for our purposes, the S fits the bill. Our first 5,000 miles in the Tesla S was achieved without using a public charging station even once. We've crammed an amazing amount of gear in it for camping and even driving all the way up hurricane ridge with no problem. We've been half way up Vancouver Island from Shoreline on a single charge, driven to Idaho and even all the way down to Santa Cruz CA. The trip to CA cost us a total of $8, and that was for parking while we used a HAL2 station in Portland. The S is, if nothing else, a flagship for what is possible, a future without gas cars, though it certainly will take more time for the economy of scale to be reached for long range EV's to be more generally affordable. So going ICE free is possible but whether one finds that practical is a rather individual thing. For us, it's turned out to be one of the most rewarding choices we've made!

 

[apvbguy]

It's also nice to experience traveling across a country with a well thought out public transportation system, which is very eco-minded.

have you ever done a trip like that?

In the US, yes but it's not "well thought out." The furthest I've gone by train here is LA to Chicago. I've also gone from LA to San Diego, LA to the Bay Area, Seattle to LA, Denver to the Bay Area, Chicago to Seattle, and DC to NYC (on the high speed Acela) by train. I enjoyed these trips, but Amtrak is sorely underfunded except for the Northeast Corridor and Amtrak/local partnerships like the Amtrak Surfliner which runs to San Diego.

But in Western Europe? Germany, France, Switzerland, and the "Benelux" countries (Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg) have awesome long distance rail and local public transit. UK, not so much, but I have travelled from Zurich to London via high speed rail, stopping for a while in Paris, and I've also gone from Germany to London via Brussels on high speed rail.

the short trips like NYC/DC, LA/SD are short enough to be pleasant and almost feasible, the long distance trips can be excruciatingly slow and are subject to absurdly long delays. on the shorter routes the higher speed trains can be an alternative to planes. IMHO long distance train travel is reserved for the retiree class for whom time is not as important.

 

[stjohnh]

We have two Leafs and a 98 Camry (ICE backup and for 16yo to use when she gets her licence).
My 19 yo daughter moved to Truckee ( near Lake Tahoe, 200 miles from Bay Area, with lots of snow- she likes camping and snow sports). I would have liked to get a Leaf for her, and I think she could manage in the Truckee area (a couple of L2 commercial charge stations, and enough in the Reno-Tahoe area for her to get around ok), BUT she drives home about once a month, and while there are plenty of L3 fast charge stations between the Bay Area and Sacramento, there are none between Sacramento and Truckee.... which means she can't drive easily the 200 miles in a Leaf. I have driven my Leaf to Truckee, with an overnight stay at the base of the mountains in Colfax, and it isn't too bad if you don't mind spending 24 hours total time from start to finish, but just isn't practical for my daughter.

We bought her a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid AWD- perfect for her. With snow tires, a better fit for snow climates, probably safer with AWD and larger car if she gets in a low speed accident, has ICE if she gets stuck in snow, room to carry camping and snowboard stuff. Low maintenance (in Calif Hybrids don't require the annoying smog checks that other ICE have to do) and good reliability record w decent mpg. Sounds ideal for the OP. Low cost to buy and operate.

 

[RonDawg]

the short trips like NYC/DC, LA/SD are short enough to be pleasant and almost feasible, the long distance trips can be excruciatingly slow and are subject to absurdly long delays. on the shorter routes the higher speed trains can be an alternative to planes. IMHO long distance train travel is reserved for the retiree class for whom time is not as important.

Oh I agree that the long distance ones are subject to delays. That's because Amtrak has to fight for trackage time with freight, and often is given second-class status.

LA to the Bay Area is 8 hours if you use the San Joaquin, and that includes the 3 hour bus ride from LA. That's not much more than if you drove at the speed limit. If you use the more scenic Coast Starlight, it's 12 hours and very much subject to delays (it's often called the Coast Star"late" for that reason).

California is wanting to build high speed rail too, using the San Joaquin line, but whether it will ever become reality remains to be seen. There are a lot of legal and financial hurdles to overcome, and the fact that they are starting in the middle, and not initially reconnecting LA to Bakersfield by passenger rail (a service it has not had since Amtrak took over), is a major mistake IMHO. Nobody is going to want to drive to Bakersfield just to take a high speed train service.

I wouldn't call long distance train trips for "the retiree class" but yes you cannot be in a hurry to get to your destination. But I consider such a journey to be part of the vacation itself.