Grid-tied PV system with battery backup

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klapauzius said:
So that number would depend on the system size obviously...
Sure. I was clear this was a comparison of two 10-kW systems.
klapauzius said:
I would also assume that if the inverter fails, it is probably due to some single component, that can be replaced, rather than to change the whole device?
Sure, but how to debug it? I'm an electrical engineer who has done power electronic design. But without some details about the design and a proper lab, I will say that debugging a failed XW inverter would be quite a challenge.
 
I added the video specifically to address a way for folks to get around grid-tied inverter's anti-islanding functionality as some here were surprised to find that their grid-tied system didn't work when the mains power went offline.

Central inverters have been around much longer than these new-fangled ;) micro inverters - there's plenty of real-world experience going back to the 1970s. Apparently the devices have been very reliable since the mid-1980s.

Here's a bit of inverter history. Robin Gudgel was behind a number of the modern inverters, including Outback.

http://www.hardysolar.com/inverter/inverter-history.html

This, from 2002, talks of a 5 year MTBF for early inverters - the units the predate the current-tech computerized units:
http://homepower.com/view/?file=HP90_pg130_IPP

Just an anecdote, but from someone that's been part of the off-grid movement from the 1970s - seems the modern units are very reliable in the real world.
http://homepower.com/view/?file=HP115_pg52_Perez
 
AndyH said:
Central inverters have been around much longer than these new-fangled ;) micro inverters - there's plenty of real-world experience going back to the 1970s. Apparently the devices have been very reliable since the mid-1980s.
Hardly. I only got a few years out of my pair of 1998 SW5548s before one failed. The XWs do have a good reputation, but I don't hear anything from the central inverter manufacturers these days touting 20-year life or anything. Did I miss it?
 
RegGuheert said:
AndyH said:
Central inverters have been around much longer than these new-fangled ;) micro inverters - there's plenty of real-world experience going back to the 1970s. Apparently the devices have been very reliable since the mid-1980s.
Hardly. I only got a few years out of my pair of 1998 SW5548s before one failed. The XWs do have a good reputation, but I don't hear anything from the central inverter manufacturers these days touting 20-year life or anything. Did I miss it?
Gudgel said:
Two years later [2000] the new owners of Trace merged with Xantrex in Canada. The management of the new merged company came from Xantrex. I was now part owner of Xantrex, one of the companies I had been trying to squash! Xantrex had done a fine job building small disposable high frequency inverters, but had virtually no presence in the off-grid market. Trace built their reputation on making reliable inverters that powered anything and everything the customer threw at it. Trace inverters had to work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The Xantrex inverter market was quite different and not nearly as demanding.
http://www.hardysolar.com/inverter/inverter-history.html

Exeltech apparently has a 20 year MTFB, and some vendors claim to have never had a unit go bad in the field...
http://www.solar-electric.com/exsiwain.html

The folks at MidNite Solar would be (actually were!) my first email recipient - they don't make inverters but have personal experience with a number of them... ;)

Xantrex tried to 'redeem' themselves with the GT 3 series inverters but it didn't go very well. The gent from the (now dead) Solar Guppy forum (an R&D Engineer with multiple PV arrays in Florida) was involved in field testing and improving early models and it was kinda ugly. Contact the Guppy - I'll bet he'll provide his own recommendations...
http://www.solar-guppy.com/
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?13666-Spam-and-bots-win-again-solar-guppy-com-closed

I prefer to recommend from personal experience, but in this case it's only from research and reading over about 10 or so years (though I have a MidNite Classic 150 charge controller that's been maintaining a LiFePO4 battery for the past 6 months or so), so please don't take my word for anything. I'm collecting equipment from MidNite Solar and Outback for my eventual off-grid move - and staying away from Xantrex/Schneider...YMMV...
 
Mine was a Trace SW inverter. Truly it was a revolutionary design...with about a 5 year MTBF, if I had to put a number on it. They may have made small improvements since then, but I don't think they are past 10 years, yet...

I installed a new Midnite Solar Classic controller a little over a year ago. So far so good. Still, the design and build techniques are similar to what has been done for decades. Frankly, I don't think they are focused on MTBF improvement. We'll see.
 
My Outback GTFX2524 has been going strong for 6+ years now, never a hickup. Batteries are another issue though. :(
I've been trying to think of some easy way to keep my SMA7000 grid-tied system going in the event of an outage, but the complexity of the Sunny Island setup is more than I feel like taking on. The main issue is that the solar arrays that now run my Outback setup aren't compatible with the Sunny Island units, not to mention I would need 2 independent arrays, to feed dual inverters for 240 VAC. I wish SMA made a simpler 240 volt unit.Does anyone know if Outback or any other vendor makes a sinewave unit like the GTFX that is 240 volt? If so, that might be a better alternative for me.
 
keydiver said:
Does anyone know if Outback or any other vendor makes a sinewave unit like the GTFX that is 240 volt? If so, that might be a better alternative for me.
Sure. The Xantrex XW series is 240 VAC.
 
In case you do not believe my MTBF estimates, here are some quotes from executives at the major makers of large inverters:

A Government study by America interviewing all major Solar inverter manufacturers. Interesting most expect 15 year lifespan is considered good/great. Capacitors seem to be the weakness. Something to factor in when buying your system,,,,

•Xantrex, Managing Director: “Why make inverters with a longer life when the customer is better off replacing the inverter every 10 years or so anyway? The inverters available in 10 years will be better products with higher efficiency.”•SMA America, President: “Why focus on higher reliability? Our customers worry only about first-cost. In any case, it’s more cost-effective to just replace the inverter in 10 years.”•Sustainable Energy Technologies, Director of Operations: “A 20-year lifetime for PV inverters is at least 10 years away.”•Mitsubishi: “A 20-plus-year life for inverters is impossible. Some parts of the inverters would need to be replaced over such an extended period.”•SMA, Head of Solar:“A 20-year lifetime is not possible.”•Fronius, Head of Sales (Germany):“Inverter MTBF may reach 12 years by 2015. A 20-year lifetime can’t be achieved.”•GE Energyindicated that 20-year life would not be practical without a significant impact oncost. A 15-year life is more reasonable, and that should be reviewed based on life-cycle costs impact.•Contrary to statements made in a recent Photon International article (April 2005), manufacturers and other industry experts we spoke to do not believe that capacitor improvements alone will result in inverters that can “keep going for more than 20 years.”
I wonder how much business these companies have lost to Enphase by not understanding the critical importance of reliability in terms of how it affects life-cycle costs?
 
RegGuheert said:
...I wonder how much business these companies have lost to Enphase by not understanding the critical importance of reliability in terms of how it affects life-cycle costs?
Or to Exeltech? This is one of the few nameplates I've seen in military/government equipment. It certainly isn't inexpensive, though...
 
AndyH said:
Or to Exeltech? This is one of the few nameplates I've seen in military/government equipment. It certainly isn't inexpensive, though...
I don't really know Exeltech. I'll have to learn more about them. Thanks for the heads up!
 
Aren't the drive inverters in an EV somewhat similar to a solar grid-tied inverter?
Would you expect inverter failure in an EV (due to capacitors for instance) after ~10 years?
 
RegGuheert said:
klapauzius said:
I would also assume that if the inverter fails, it is probably due to some single component, that can be replaced, rather than to change the whole device?
Sure, but how to debug it? I'm an electrical engineer who has done power electronic design. But without some details about the design and a proper lab, I will say that debugging a failed XW inverter would be quite a challenge.

I thought more about sending it in (to the manufacturer) and have them repair it for a fee, but probably they dont do that anymore...
 
TEG said:
Aren't the drive inverters in an EV somewhat similar to a solar grid-tied inverter?
Would you expect inverter failure in an EV (due to capacitors for instance) after ~10 years?
They certainly handle more power...
 
keydiver said:
My Outback GTFX2524 has been going strong for 6+ years now, never a hickup. Batteries are another issue though. :(
I've been trying to think of some easy way to keep my SMA7000 grid-tied system going in the event of an outage, but the complexity of the Sunny Island setup is more than I feel like taking on. The main issue is that the solar arrays that now run my Outback setup aren't compatible with the Sunny Island units, not to mention I would need 2 independent arrays, to feed dual inverters for 240 VAC. I wish SMA made a simpler 240 volt unit.Does anyone know if Outback or any other vendor makes a sinewave unit like the GTFX that is 240 volt? If so, that might be a better alternative for me.
Outback inverters can be stacked (they'll synchronize with each other) to provide 240VAC. If I recall correctly, one of the inverters can be set to sleep until someone activates a 240V load and then the inverter will wake and drive the load.
 
There are threads on the outback power forum regarding AC coupling of battery backed and non-battery grid-tie inverter systems, including when the grid goes down. It is trivial to have both types of system operating together when the grid is up, but it gets interesting when the grid goes down. Battery backed inverters are designed to isolate via a transfer switch to power critical loads on a sub panel under these conditions, but what if a non-battery grid tie inverter (or other source of AC generation) is on the islanded sub panel, too? It turns out that the battery based inverters are generally good enough to spoof the non-battery grid-tie inverters into operating as though the grid is up. This allows you to access solar power from a non-battery PV inverter when the grid is down, as long as you have at least a small battery based inverter to spoof the grid. The battery based inverter doesn't even have to have any PV directly attached to it (typically connected via a DC charge controller directly to the battery), since they typically have a battery charger/maintainer built in that will operate off AC.

The challenge comes in matching loads to generation, basically the larger grid management problem recast in your own tiny microgrid. The non-battery PV inverter will try to generate as much power as it can get out the of the panels whether the power is needed or not on the microgrid. If the PV power is insufficient to meet loads, the battery inverter will make up the difference from stored energy in the batteries, but if the solar is too much, the battery inverter actually starts drawing power, unregulated, into the batteries in an attempt to keep the AC parameters in spec. This can't go on for long and isn't good for the batteries, so the solution is to implement a dump load to dissipate excess power (water heatering, etc), or the solar PV inverter can be disconnected. There are automated solutions to accomplish both of these, but this is fussy stuff to set-up and not exactly plug and play. Each non-battery grid-tie inverter has its own approach for anti-islanding (the safety feature that shuts the inverter down when the grid goes down) This feature must be fooled by the battery based inverter and there may be anomalies between inverters of various manufacturers. No guarantees that this will always work or that there won't be AC waveform quality issues, etc.

While I agree with previous posts that the extra cost and maintenance associated with battery backed systems is generally not justified for homes on a reliable grid, it is nice to have back-up power available and it is frustrating for a PV owner to be in the dark with the rest of the grid when it happens. It is particularly ironic for a PV and EV owner to be in the dark, since they have all the components (some a couple times over) to provide backup power, but because of the lack of intentional integration between their components, this functionality is missing. I used to try to defend my interest in a battery backed grid-tied PV system with the intention to use solar power 100% of the time, by essentially operating off-grid at all times except when the PV array was generating more than the house was using. However, I've pretty much come around that this purist conceit is just that, and lacks technical merit. It is dubious to install batteries into a system that will potentailly see little practical use and conjuring the need for them by intentionally disconnecting from the grid, isn't much better. The more rational approach is to use the batteries for a task they are uniquely suited, such as mobile electric supply in an EV, and piggyback household power back-up when the need arises. That model allows much better utilization of the battery over its life. Unfortunately, the existing hardware isn't well designed around this combination of uses, but hopefully some of this synergy will catch on.

For now, one can consider using battery based inverters such as the new Outback Radian in a mobile application (not its design intent). For $4000 you get an 8kW 120/240VAC grid tie capable inverter and ~6kW battery charger. If one was building a conversion EV it is easy to spend $2000-4000 on a charger alone. The down side is that the Radian (like all household battery inverters) uses a very low battery voltage by EV standards (48VDC). This makes for underwhelming EV performance unless one is satisfied with a golfcar/NEV around town type vehicle. It is possible to do series/parallel switching of the pack to operate at higher voltages when driving as an EV and lower voltage when charging and inverting, but this is a kludge to cover for a gap in system integration. An EV like this that can can also connect to your home in the event of an outage and spoof the grid to keep you non-battery PV system operating is an interesting combination of features (even though you still need the load management layer to pull this off). An inverter that can take a battery voltage of 400VDC off the chademo port would be even more intersting, and it could be combined with a higher rate charger for the Leaf. But that's new kit for someone to build.

Back on the topic of crazy things to do with existing hardware, it occurred to me that the battery voltage of the Leaf is within the DC input spec of many non-battery based PV inverters. Besides confusing the MPPT function, I wonder what would happen if a Leaf battery was connected to the DC input on a PV inverter. I guess it would just push the rated power of the inverter onto the grid for as long as the battery lasted. Not particularly useful unless you fancy gaming the utility to sell you power at 6 cents at night and push it on the grid for a 30 cent credit during the day. Still, a grid spoofing battery based inverter for outages could be set up with a very small battery pack just to bring the microgrid alive and then the non-battery PV inverter could use solar during the day and the Leaf battery over night to provide the majority of the power, assuming you could come up with a sensible way to manage the load matching in the EV to microgrid case (dumping excess power to heat no longer makes any sense when the source is a battery).

Howdy
 
klapauzius said:
TEG said:
Aren't the drive inverters in an EV somewhat similar to a solar grid-tied inverter?
Would you expect inverter failure in an EV (due to capacitors for instance) after ~10 years?
They certainly handle more power...
Yes, the inverter in the LEAF is, in many ways, more complex than an inverter for home power use: It is three phase, higher power, DC voltage is higher while AC voltage is variable both in frequency and amplitude. It also lives in a much harsher environment than a large central inverter (but not harsher than a microinverter except for vibration). On the other hand, it is sealed (as are some of the Outback inverters) and water cooled. It is also priced similarly to a Xantrex XW6048.

So what is the MTBF? Good question! Anecdotal evidence I have read in this forum indicates that the MTBF of the inverter in the old Rav4 EV may have been below 10 years, with many having to replace capacitors to extend the life.

But I think it really comes down to what Nissan targeted for the MTBF. The clue for this is in the Warranty Information Booklet: 5 years or 60,000 miles on the EV system:
EV SYSTEM
Motor, Inverter unit, VCM, Reduction gear, DC/DC converter, Onboard charger, Onboard charger connector, and Trickle-charge cable.
They cannot simply design for an MTBF of 6 years for each of these items or they can expect to be repairing every LEAF within the warranty period.

So, what is likely? Well, some of the items like VCM, Reduction gear, and Onboard charger connector are things that automakers know how to make very reliable, so those likely have very high MTBFs and design lives. Of the rest, the motor, being a synchronous machine, *should* be extremely reliable barring any major design or manufacturing mistakes. The Trickle-charge cable is apparently well-designed by Panasonic, so likely will last a long time. That leaves: Inverter unit, DC/DC converter, and Onboard charger.

Based on power levels and operating modes, I would say the inverter is, by far, the most challenging design of the three with the Onboard charger second and the DC/DC converter a close third. If I were allocating MTBFs for these three, I would probably target 20-25 years for the latter two and 10-15 years for the Inverter.

That's my best guess. I purchased the 8-year, 100,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty from Nisssan for our LEAF (something I *never* do!) just in case Nissan missed their target on any of these items. In fact, I would have purchased a 10-year, 120,000-mile warranty, but that is NOT available on the LEAF! Perhaps that is a clue, too! So far, I have not heard of a single instance of ANY of these items failing (or was there a charger replaced?) in the LEAF, which is an extremely good sign that their manufacturing process is working well and the designs can handle the real-world conditions these components are seeing. We will have to wait to see if their reliability calculations and testing were on target. I'm betting they are not too far off!
 
attachment.php


Off grid lead battery charge setup. Runs 35% 0f the house, security lights, charges EV motorcycle and
sometimes the LEAF if I have extra Juice. $4500 before Government rebate, $2700 after.

Running on its 3rd year. Only maintenance is checking battery connection and water every few months.

Other than the issues stated in this thread, most people want a grid tie to sell their extra power to the power company.

That seems strange to us since you pay (here anyway) 12cents a KW to buy it but they will only pay 7 cents to buy it back.

Every 12 cents I am saving is mine. I can use it at night and in the times after a storm when we are out of grid power.

Another IMPORTANT factor is an item that came about a few months during a sever thunder storm. Lightning hit the power line and took out several items in the house, (stove, garage opener, etc.) which insurance will sometimes cover after the deductible, but NONE of the items on the grid system, (TV, entertainment system, etc) were touched. All of it was isolated from the main power grid. Even if the solar system were to get it, the AC inverter would take the hit instead of the house stuff.


:)
 
hgoudey said:
The challenge comes in matching loads to generation, basically the larger grid management problem recast in your own tiny microgrid. The non-battery PV inverter will try to generate as much power as it can get out the of the panels whether the power is needed or not on the microgrid.
Reading this made me be wonder about microinverters. Enphase's products talk via power line communications to their Envoy gateway. Is this communications two-way? Could a load balancing device talk to the microinverters and tell them to disconnect or reduce power as needed?

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
Is this communications two-way?
Yes, the communication link is bi-directional. Enphase can perform firmware updates or request diagnostic information from the microinverters, but only when they are in sunlight.
wwhitney said:
Could a load balancing device talk to the microinverters and tell them to disconnect or reduce power as needed?
Perhaps, but I don't think the system was designed for any real-time applications. For instance, when Enphase recently pushed a firmware update out to my microinverters, it took the Envoy SEVERAL DAYS to get all of them updated. It literally only completed about 18 per day. Still, I don't see why it could not respond quickly to simple remote commands.
 
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