How people use Leaf in Europe - QC as needed

[EdmondLeaf]

In 10 years we will laugh over the fact that we spent do much energy on discussing charging options

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=138" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am laughing already,sure things will be different 10 years from now. But sometime this spring or next spring, will be nice to go to Dallas (201 miles to get my latest software updates and see/use their Chademo charger). Distance is reasonable and possible to accomplish with 2 fast recharges on the way 6 h total trip is possible, but with current L2 - 19 h makes it hard to justify and simply without sense.

 

[JPWhite]

That sounds like a sound strategy.

One frustrating piece of news for me is that the new California Air Board standards require gas stations to install a number of Hydrogen pumps. They could install 60 or so L3 chargers for the same money as one hydro gas station. Unfortunately they did not specify L3 requirements as far as I'm aware.

what?? is this for real? what power does CARB have to mandate this? (they had a lot when i lived there)

how many H2's will be using this service?

Crazy eh?

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_19839701?source=most_viewed

Last paragraph talks about hydrogen fueling. Don't see any talk about EV charging stations.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Won't argue that point!

I am for options and the more the merrier!

Eventually it will filter down to a small handful of plugs and sockets but that is a ways off and I do applaude Nisssans effort th get a QC option out there even of they had to build out themselves

 

[SnaxMuppet]

This is a hugely facinating discussion and in my opinion one of the key issues surrounding the general acceptance, or otherwise, of BEVs.

There have been a lot of very enlightened comments. However, I think that many people seem to be looking at the current situation with the state of the art regarding batteries and charging and are assuming that this is how things will be in the future. There is no point, or at least there is no real benefit, in commenting on the current situation as if this is how it will be in the future. It is a very fast moving environment and things are changing quickly and for the better.

People talk about the range of the Leaf and seem to be suggesting that the Leaf is not good for long trips. Some are even saying that there is little point in deploying a fast charge network because the range of the Leaf (and other BEVs) is short and that charging is slow. This is not how it will be.

The Leaf, and other BEVs, will soon have batteries that give them a range of 150, 200, 250 or even 300 miles. The fact that the Tesla S has 300 miles is a strong indicator of this and the only real barrier seems to be price. Prices will fall as volume increases. It will be an incremental process and will take a few years but the technology for larger capacity batteries is here already and it is still developing.

Charging times are also coming down as is the cost of the chargers. CHAdeMO chargers have dropped in price here in the UK from about 25K GBP to about 8K GBP in the last year and I would imagine that there is room for further reductions still. Charging times are coming down too with the latest Nissan chargers charging to 80% in 20 mins. With the development of capacitor technology and fast-charging battery cells this could come down to just minutes.

The issue of whether we need as many chargers as gas stations is really a short-term one. Once the gas station owners and the gas companies realise that rather than losing EV owners as customers they could not only retain us but make more profit from us than when we were ICE owners they will find ways to deploy charging stations in gas stations. I wouldn't be surprised if in time most gas stations have a charging station and gradually they will switch away from gasoline and more towards electricity.

Of course, these changes will be slow and so for now we will all have to suffer the consequenses of being in an undeveloped market, but eventually all of the issues raised will be resolved... I am convinced.

 

[davewill]

... The Leaf, and other BEVs, will soon have batteries that give them a range of 150, 200, 250 or even 300 miles. The fact that the Tesla S has 300 miles is a strong indicator of this and the only real barrier seems to be price. Prices will fall as volume increases. It will be an incremental process and will take a few years but the technology for larger capacity batteries is here already and it is still developing. ...

I'm unconvinced that this is how it will play out. I find it much more likely that any improvements in battery tech/pricing will go to making these cars cheaper, not to add range. I expect the mass market EV range to stay in the LEAF and "i" territory.

 

[GRA]

... The Leaf, and other BEVs, will soon have batteries that give them a range of 150, 200, 250 or even 300 miles. The fact that the Tesla S has 300 miles is a strong indicator of this and the only real barrier seems to be price. Prices will fall as volume increases. It will be an incremental process and will take a few years but the technology for larger capacity batteries is here already and it is still developing. ...

I'm unconvinced that this is how it will play out. I find it much more likely that any improvements in battery tech/pricing will go to making these cars cheaper, not to add range. I expect the mass market EV range to stay in the LEAF and "i" territory.

I think both are correct. Ultimately we have to decrease cost and improve specific energy and energy density (I think we're generally okay on power density), but I think we have to get the price of the batteries down first, so that BEVs can compete without subsidy with ICEs/HEVs of similar size/features (but not range). This will also have the effect of boosting the range @ price point for those that need more range, but until battery technology improves more than incrementally, max. range will remain limited by weight and volume. A 60 or 85kW Tesla S is hauling around 1,200 lb. of batteries as it is. And battery technology very definitely doesn't follow Moore's Law, so we have to base our decisions on what's available now or is just about to go into production, not what might (or might not) be available a decade or two down the road.

 

[KevinSharpe]

it would cost a huge amount to supply the infrastructure to deliver 43 kW to these AC stations, if located "everywhere".

Not at all... in most of Mainland Europe houses are supplied with 3 Phase power for heating and cooking, and in the commercial environment 3 Phase is simply everywhere... just a few days ago I was at a small hotel that had a 50kW AC cardboard compactor which is apparently common practice.

Obviously, not all locations require 43kW charging but in locations where it would be beneficial I don't see any problems deploying it in Europe (this is what's happening alongside the CHAdeMO chargers that Nissan are donating).

 

[JPWhite]

... The Leaf, and other BEVs, will soon have batteries that give them a range of 150, 200, 250 or even 300 miles. The fact that the Tesla S has 300 miles is a strong indicator of this and the only real barrier seems to be price. Prices will fall as volume increases. It will be an incremental process and will take a few years but the technology for larger capacity batteries is here already and it is still developing. ...

I'm unconvinced that this is how it will play out. I find it much more likely that any improvements in battery tech/pricing will go to making these cars cheaper, not to add range. I expect the mass market EV range to stay in the LEAF and "i" territory.

As prices come down, manufacturers will be able to offer cars with different ranges at differing prices. This is what Tesla does, since their customers are less price sensitive. I believe this will become a standard as costs and energy densities improve.

 

[Herm]

As prices come down, manufacturers will be able to offer cars with different ranges at differing prices. This is what Tesla does, since their customers are less price sensitive. I believe this will become a standard as costs and energy densities improve.

I would like a Leaf with 50% more range (EPA rated at 100 miles, like the Coda).. I think that would take most of the fear and worry away. It is a fact that only 8% of the driving public has a one-way commute of 35 miles or longer, they are a minority.

 

[garygid]

The % with a 70-mile (or greater) RT in the greater LA basin ...
is probably twice (who knows?) the national "average".

And, there are many who do not drive at all, or "don't commute".
Are they included in the 92% (to make the 8% smaller)?

 

[JPWhite]

As prices come down, manufacturers will be able to offer cars with different ranges at differing prices. This is what Tesla does, since their customers are less price sensitive. I believe this will become a standard as costs and energy densities improve.

I would like a Leaf with 50% more range (EPA rated at 100 miles, like the Coda).. I think that would take most of the fear and worry away. It is a fact that only 8% of the driving public has a one-way commute of 35 miles or longer, they are a minority.

I agree an extra 50% would be sweet.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Maybe that is extreme, but my friend used QC 5 times within 7 h for 290 mile trip. Battery temperature increased from 6C (start) to 40C (end) not sure how temp was measured. He is using QC all the time and will be going for service soon so that should give idea about battery condition

 

[lspooz]

...It is a fact that only 8% of the driving public has a one-way commute of 35 miles or longer... Then L2 at work covers them even up to a 70mile commute since you stay at work ~7-10hrs...

I like the talking point a few pages back: we need L2 at destinations, and L3 to get us there

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Yeah, it's interesting. there is a limit to how much we can convince people to change what they think is reasonable. People want a wide margin in range to feel comfortable. since a bigger battery is not here yet, quick charging is what is going to give people that extra sense of security at least in the short run.

...It is a fact that only 8% of the driving public has a one-way commute of 35 miles or longer... Then L2 at work covers them even up to a 70mile commute since you stay at work ~7-10hrs...

I like the talking point a few pages back: we need L2 at destinations, and L3 to get us there

 

[LEAFfan]

Maybe that is extreme, but my friend used QC 5 times within 7 h for 290 mile trip. Battery temperature increased from 6C (start) to 40C (end) not sure how temp was measured. He is using QC all the time and will be going for service soon so that should give idea about battery condition

It isn't extreme. The LEAFs battery pack can take up to 6 QCs a day without any problem. As long as the battery temp is below the red it's okay to charge and drive. They were extensively QC tested to simulate 8yrs./100K miles in the hot desert and they passed with flying colors. I'm sure that's how Nissan is able to offer that warranty. If they couldn't take QCing, I'm sure Nissan wouldn't have been able to give that guarantee. People need to ignore the things in the manual that make little or no sense, such as one QC a day (and a six month tire rotation no matter what the mileage)...what a laugher! :lol:

 

[JPWhite]

People want a wide margin in range to feel comfortable.

That is true and partly a function of having driven gas cars for many years. When driving a gas car I would start pricing gas stations when I got down to 1/4 of a tank. I probably had 100 miles range left but started to feel I needed to fill up.

With EV's the point at which gas car drivers start wanting to fill up i.e. 100 miles range, is where EV's start full and the range goes down from there. So for a virgin EV driver range anxiety theoretically begins at 100% full :!: Of course once you are more confident in how far you can go on a 'bar' then range anxiety fades.

A gas car with 5 miles of range left would already have invoked feelings of range anxiety, since the gas gauge would be resting on the needle. No one in their right mind would routinely run a gas car down to this little of range, but EV drivers do so routinely once they gain confidence in their vehicles. The average Joe doesn't want to face this fear and simply rejects an EV as an option for them.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

The average Joe doesn't want to face this fear and simply rejects an EV as an option for them.

There are 2 options to go with:
bigger battery pack which will increase price and still future plan
or
go with easy option, most of Leaf have QC port, start installing QC and fear will be greatly reduced, knowing that one can get fast recharge in needed

 

[camasleaf]

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/nissan-answers-questions-about-optimally-charging-nissan-leaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mark Perry answers questions about optimally charging the Nissan Leaf. Interesting to hear him talking about the 10 years span and the "unique" fast DC feature that gives you 40 miles in 5 minutes. Sounded good.

 

[karlosk2]

Hello,
thank CHAdeMO quick charger, existing in Seville, Seville is home to 140km, I can move to town, make arrangements and return, with totals of more than 320km sometimes on the same day, the L3 option at this time and its expansion, would lead to faster deployment of electric vehicles.
regards

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Is that a Nissan charger?