How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[RegGuheert]

for people who are approaching a 20+% loss, what would you have Nissan do now?

Offer to convert purchases to leases. (Nothing for lessees.)

 

[Cheezmo]

Imagine the revese, a 500 mile range ICE car looses so much efficency because the gas engine doesn't work as well after 1 year and only goes 425 miles, max, you would see lawsuits flying everywhere.

I totally disagree with this. Most people would not even notice that they have to fill up a little more often. How many people do you think meticulously track their gas mileage and range.

EV drivers are WAY more likely to pay attention to stuff like that.

 

[EVDRIVER]

When I read "24 hours in 120 temp" that was a clear indicator of trouble for AZ. Did that not concern any buyers that 24 hours in a temp like that could damage the pack?

That's interesting you were so certain it would be trouble for AZ when it is not 120 degrees for 24 hours here and Nissan chose this area as a launch market.

Please post a pic of your battery capacity replacement sticker when you get it.

Thanks for your clairvoyant hindsight support. I'm certain with support like this in the EV community, EV adoption will blossom. I mean who wouldn't want a car that loses 15-20% range after less than a year when following manufacturer "long-life" guidelines?

The comment was only to make light of the arguing situation and warning people in advance about issues is support to the EV community and not hindsight. I suppose all the other people that mentioned this and other points a year ago were using hindsight? I have had more than one EV with a destroyed pack and accept the shortcoming of EVs for now. If a pack can be damaged by being in 120 degree heat for 24 hours then most certainly sitting in high temps under 120 for 8 hours etc is going to severely shorten the life. It is not as though hitting 120 for 24 hours just melts something. It's cumulative heat issues and does anyone think that sitting at 115 degrees for 24 hours has no effect just 120 as if it is a threshold? The tricky thing is the warranty does not state 24 continuous hours or 24 total hours at 120, odd that was not made clear like the painting statements.

Regardless the pack is not a sauce that breaks at a certain temp and the fact the warranty says 120 heat can damage the pack leads me to put up a red flag as a buyer. Nissan should have been more clear about degradation in high heat areas in the warranty but on the other hand I bet many people never even read the battery warranty before they bought the car, unclear or not. Does the situation suck? Yes! Were consumers not warmed, that's debatable. Some more data and time on this is needed as it is still a bit early in the process. One thing I know is how I would address this issue and it would not be with a dealer for more than a single visit and I suspect if it gets worse then something will be done by Nissan.


My average pack temp is about 66 degrees. I have one of the very first cars and I am shocked I have 280-1 Gids still regardless of temp. I expected the packs to be in far worse shape everywhere.

 

[EVDRIVER]

An linear extrapolation of 15% per year means that just 3 years from now most LEAFs in Phoenix will have 50% capacity
at which point you would probably have to replace the pack.

At what point does the capacity decline so much that the pack is no longer able to output the same power levels? Since power output is warrantied that might be another way to have Nissan cover the lost capacity under the existing warranty.

I bet you can get the full "rated" power out of your pack with 3 bars right now. That may answer your question. As long is there is not excessive sag then that part of the warranty could be pointless like the rest of it.

 

[klapauzius]

for people who are approaching a 20+% loss, what would you have Nissan do now?

1) replace the battery in anticipation of a linear loss based on what you have lost to this point? (iow, replace a tranny before it blows up because it does not "seem" to run right but still gets you down the road?)
...
Nissan knew what would happen, PERIOD

you all think Nissan is a crook, i personally think Nissan is in the middle of pulling off one of the greatest publicity stunts of all time

I think you are an optimist. If they exchange the battery packs in Feb 2013, everyone in Phoenix will be back to where we are now by the end of 2013. If the battery does not last in hot climate, it does not last. There is no way Nissan can change the battery chemistry or thermal management in such a short time to retrofit the AZ Leafs with a "hot weather pack".

I think at this point the only "right" thing to do for them is what somebody else on this thread suggested, offer to turn all the purchased Leafs into leases and give a full refund.

From the fact that so many LEAFS have lost capacity in AZ it seems this is a systematic bug, so they will need a long time to fix it.

What I do not get is how they
a) could have known about it and launch/sell the LEAF in AZ anyway ?
b) could NOT have known about this, given that it just takes 10-12 months of testing to see this happen ?


Some other random thought:

I read that some owners now cool their garages to preserve their batteries. This seems to defeat the purpose of an EV. That brings the carbon footprint right back to the level of an ICE.

 

[EVDRIVER]

for people who are approaching a 20+% loss, what would you have Nissan do now?

1) replace the battery in anticipation of a linear loss based on what you have lost to this point? (iow, replace a tranny before it blows up because it does not "seem" to run right but still gets you down the road?)
...
Nissan knew what would happen, PERIOD

you all think Nissan is a crook, i personally think Nissan is in the middle of pulling off one of the greatest publicity stunts of all time

I think you are an optimist. If they exchange the battery packs in Feb 2013, everyone in Phoenix will be back to where we are now by the end of 2013. If the battery does not last in hot climate, it does not last. There is no way Nissan can change the battery chemistry or thermal management in such a short time to retrofit the AZ Leafs with a "hot weather pack".

I think at this point the only "right" thing to do for them is what somebody else on this thread suggested, offer to turn all the purchased Leafs into leases and give a full refund.

From the fact that so many LEAFS have lost capacity in AZ it seems this is a systematic bug, so they will need a long time to fix it.

What I do not get is how they
a) could have known about it and launch/sell the LEAF in AZ anyway ?
b) could NOT have known about this, given that it just takes 10-12 months of testing to see this happen ?


Some other random thought:

I read that some owners now cool their garages to preserve their batteries. This seems to defeat the purpose of an EV. That brings the carbon footprint right back to the level of an ICE.

If they knew they may have a strategy for that. They could also have pulled the entire AZ sales and put doubt in the entire sales process. Bad PR or not they could offer exceptions to effected cars and a long term solution or compensation. Even a new heat resistant pack later. Many options but not enough info now. It's a tough one when taking such a large risk to be first to market. Nissan can handle the PR on this but they already made some heat statements they will have to dance around. Just try to get any stated warranty coverage on 12V battery life and see how it goes, it's usually pretty bad in most cases. Nissan will need to address this but my guess is it is still too early. For those that have decided they don't want the car because of this you can try arbitration, I have done this with an automaker and was very pleased with the outcome.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

If a pack can be damaged by being in 120 degree heat for 24 hours then most certainly sitting in high temps under 120 for 8 hours etc is going to severely shorten the life. It is not as though hitting 120 for 24 hours just melts something. It's cumulative heat issues and does anyone think that sitting at 115 degrees for 24 hours has no effect just 120 as if it is a threshold? The tricky thing is the warranty does not state 24 continuous hours or 24 total hours at 120, odd that was not made clear like the painting statements.

Regardless the pack is not a sauce that breaks at a certain temp and the fact the warranty says 120 heat can damage the pack leads me to put up a red flag as a buyer. Nissan should have been more clear about degradation in high heat areas in the warranty but on the other hand I bet many people never even read the battery warranty before they bought the car, unclear or not. Does the situation suck? Yes! Were consumers not warmed, that's debatable. Some more data and time on this is needed as it is still a bit early in the process. One thing I know is how I would address this issue and it would not be with a dealer for more than a single visit and I suspect if it gets worse then something will be done by Nissan.

There have to be a trust between customer and seller in order for this to work. I thought long and hard about 24 h 120F, and from the wording in the manual is quite obvious 24h at 120F. Sure my car battery will be exposed to 120F but I trusted that Nissan did their job and know what they talking about. However what stuck in my head is 70 - 80% after 8 years 100KM, that I heard so many times. I do not need to be an gas or diesel engine specialist in order to maintain my car properly. Why I should battery expert to drive EV, I study manual and that should be sufficient to do things right. We are just small group, regular customers will decide about mass adoption.

 

[TNleaf]

I do not need to be an gas or diesel engine specialist in order to maintain my car properly. Why I should battery expert to drive EV, I study manual and that should be sufficient to do things right. We are just small group, regular customers will decide about mass adoption.

Sure you don't, but doing the things that an ICE expert does to their own vehicle provides them with a longer engine life.

I think EVDRIVER made a good point, that there isn't a threshold where it just breaks all of a sudden. However, someone that doesn't expose their car to the extreme temperatures is most certainly going to benefit from a longer battery life... in the same way someone that does "special" things to their ICE will benefit from longer service of their engine.

 

[OrientExpress]

For those that have decided they don't want the car because of this you can try arbitration, I have done this with an automaker and was very pleased with the outcome.

This is the perfect and correct solution for everyone that believes that they have been deceived, bamboozled or that there is some cover-up, etc.. If you think that your car has a problem, then take it to your dealer and describe the problem that you believe needs to be fixed. After you do that 3 times, and the "problem" is not resolved to your satisfaction, then you can go into arbitration (check your state's lemon laws for specifics), and if arbitration rules in your favor, then the manufacturer will buy back your car.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

However, someone that doesn't expose their car to the extreme temperatures is most certainly going to benefit from a longer battery life... in the same way someone that does "special" things to their ICE will benefit from longer service of their engine.

just slight correction, but I believe you agree, also will be great to know definition of "extreme temperatures"

However, someone that doesn't drive their car during summer months in what is described as extreme temperatures is most certainly going to benefit from a longer battery life... in the same way someone that does "special" things to their ICE will benefit from longer service of their engine.

 

[DaveEV]

Mark Perry is quoted in this article as saying:

“We don’t need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that….

Here's a link to the climate stats for Dubai on Wikipedia. Looks like Phoenix might be hotter than Dubai. Mark Perry might have chosen his words better:

Dubai is quite a bit hotter than Phoenix according to weather.com. On average about 10*F higher. Summer month peak temps are not much different, but it cools down a lot more at night in comparison.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

IMO the best solution here is to offer customers dissatisfied with the amount of capacity loss after 3 years the option to essentially convert to a lease at that time and have Nissan buy the car back at the residual value Nissan has used when calculating lease agreements.

It's still somewhat curious that we haven't seen any real supporting data aside from GID meter and battery capacity meter data. I'd love to see how much energy it takes from the wall to charge these 11-bar LEAFs from LBW or lower to 80% and then to 100%...

 

[hill]

I'd be curious to know how many of the 3 to 10 AZ Leafs displaying inordinate capacity losses are getting 5 miles per kWh at the wall, versus 2. Or would those having large losses not be comfortable disclosing that.

 

[leafkabob]

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix


Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix

 

[palmermd]

1. Azdre...3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix

Very nice comprehensive list bob. I know it is probably a lot of work, but to make the list more complete you could also link the username to the post where it was reported. Might be too much work at this point, but just a thought.

 

[LEAFfan]

I'd be curious to know how many of the 3 to 10 AZ Leafs displaying inordinate capacity losses are getting 5 miles per kWh at the wall, versus 2. Or would those having large losses not be comfortable disclosing that.

3-10? How can you miss often repeated posts?
And it's also been often repeated that loss of capacity has no effect on efficiency. Even if my LEAF battery pack drops to 50% capacity, I still can get 6.0m/kW h or higher.

 

[leafkabob]

1. Azdre...3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix

Very nice comprehensive list bob. I know it is probably a lot of work, but to make the list more complete you could also link the username to the post where it was reported. Might be too much work at this point, but just a thought.

No thanks Michael. I waded through every post in the thread to compile the list and I can't stomach the thought of doing it again.

 

[palmermd]

No thanks Michael. I waded through every post in the thread to compile the list and I can't stomach the thought of doing it again.

I had the same thought when I thought of what it must have took to generate the list. Thanks for your effort!

 

[TNleaf]

However, someone that doesn't expose their car to the extreme temperatures is most certainly going to benefit from a longer battery life... in the same way someone that does "special" things to their ICE will benefit from longer service of their engine.

just slight correction, but I believe you agree, also will be great to know definition of "extreme temperatures"

You are correct. Some terms used can be subjective, and could use some more definition or research, but at a certain point, the words become too detailed, so where do you draw the line? It's not an easy question to answer. "Extreme" was the word I chose, however, I think Nissan's is "very high ambient temperatures" which is probably more descriptive than my choice... but I agree to your point, who makes the definition of what "very high ambient temperatures" means.

I'm not the first person to say this, but I think one place to start research is in the warranty and owner's manual. On page EV-2 (and again on page EV-23) it states:

"Do not expose a vehicle to ambient
temperatures above 120F (49C) for
over 24 hours."

A second search from the warranty booklet finds the similar wording as above. Page 9 of the warranty booklet.

"This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
 Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above
120F (49C) for over 24 hours"

Even though they don't state it as the same exact verbiage "very high ambient," it raised a flag to me that if you DO expose the LEAF to ambient temps above 120F for over 24 hours, your warranty is voided... that sounds pretty serious and it would be safe to assume that 120F is an "extreme" or "very high ambient temperature."

I'm no lawyer, nor do I play one on television, but it brings up my point again, that if someone feels deceived, it leads me to believe they didn't read/comprehend the warranty papers or owner's manual. I used the word "extreme" Nissan used "very high ambient temperature," and I feel it's safe to say that 120F is that cutoff.

So, Phoenix was not 120F, so your warranty shouldn't be voided. I 100% agree there. However, from the information Nissan provided, one could come to the conclusion that the high temperatures are directly causing the accelerated degradation (I know this isn't new knowledge at all). So then what is the issue? Nissan had provided that information. The fact that users that have experienced temperatures close to the warranty cutoff have experienced a loss in capacity already shouldn't come as a surprise.

I'm not meaning to sound like a lawyer nor am I saying "suck it up," rather, I sympathize (I can't empathize... yet) with those that have already lost a capacity bar.

For those that have decided they don't want the car because of this you can try arbitration, I have done this with an automaker and was very pleased with the outcome.

This is the perfect and correct solution for everyone that believes that they have been deceived, bamboozled or that there is some cover-up, etc.. If you think that your car has a problem, then take it to your dealer and describe the problem that you believe needs to be fixed. After you do that 3 times, and the "problem" is not resolved to your satisfaction, then you can go into arbitration (check your state's lemon laws for specifics), and if arbitration rules in your favor, then the manufacturer will buy back your car.

+1 from me

 

[TNleaf]

I'd be curious to know how many of the 3 to 10 AZ Leafs displaying inordinate capacity losses are getting 5 miles per kWh at the wall, versus 2. Or would those having large losses not be comfortable disclosing that.

3-10? How can you miss often repeated posts?
And it's also been often repeated that loss of capacity has no effect on efficiency. Even if my LEAF battery pack drops to 50% capacity, I still can get 6.0m/kW h or higher.

I understand that point. If you drive the same exact way with a 100% capacity battery compared to a 50% capacity battery, you will still achieve the same in car m/kWh figures. And I don't mean to put words in hill's post, but he did mention from the wall (not from the car).

That is, let's assume the correct figure is 100% = 21 kWh usable capacity. 50% = 10.5 kWh
If you drive at 5 mile/kWh in both cars (figure on the dash), and drove 50 miles, you used 10 kWh from the battery. When you go to charge, do you put in the same amount of energy into both batteries? Or does the efficiency drop in the second car.

From what I've read and heard others say, the wall to wheels shouldn't be affected (to an extent). I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate... and I feel bad for even posting this here, as it's off-topic. Forgive me FSM and forum gods.

 

[Herm]

The 5 stages of grief:

1. Denial — "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."
2. Anger — "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?"
3. Bargaining — "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if..."
4. Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
5. Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."