RegGuheert
Well-known member
Offer to convert purchases to leases. (Nothing for lessees.)DaveinOlyWA said:for people who are approaching a 20+% loss, what would you have Nissan do now?
Offer to convert purchases to leases. (Nothing for lessees.)DaveinOlyWA said:for people who are approaching a 20+% loss, what would you have Nissan do now?
Pipcecil said:Imagine the revese, a 500 mile range ICE car looses so much efficency because the gas engine doesn't work as well after 1 year and only goes 425 miles, max, you would see lawsuits flying everywhere.
shrink said:EVDRIVER said:When I read "24 hours in 120 temp" that was a clear indicator of trouble for AZ. Did that not concern any buyers that 24 hours in a temp like that could damage the pack?
That's interesting you were so certain it would be trouble for AZ when it is not 120 degrees for 24 hours here and Nissan chose this area as a launch market.
Please post a pic of your battery capacity replacement sticker when you get it.
Thanks for your clairvoyant hindsight support. I'm certain with support like this in the EV community, EV adoption will blossom. I mean who wouldn't want a car that loses 15-20% range after less than a year when following manufacturer "long-life" guidelines?
QueenBee said:klapauzius said:An linear extrapolation of 15% per year means that just 3 years from now most LEAFs in Phoenix will have 50% capacity
at which point you would probably have to replace the pack.
At what point does the capacity decline so much that the pack is no longer able to output the same power levels? Since power output is warrantied that might be another way to have Nissan cover the lost capacity under the existing warranty.
DaveinOlyWA said:for people who are approaching a 20+% loss, what would you have Nissan do now?
1) replace the battery in anticipation of a linear loss based on what you have lost to this point? (iow, replace a tranny before it blows up because it does not "seem" to run right but still gets you down the road?)
...
Nissan knew what would happen, PERIOD
you all think Nissan is a crook, i personally think Nissan is in the middle of pulling off one of the greatest publicity stunts of all time
klapauzius said:DaveinOlyWA said:for people who are approaching a 20+% loss, what would you have Nissan do now?
1) replace the battery in anticipation of a linear loss based on what you have lost to this point? (iow, replace a tranny before it blows up because it does not "seem" to run right but still gets you down the road?)
...
Nissan knew what would happen, PERIOD
you all think Nissan is a crook, i personally think Nissan is in the middle of pulling off one of the greatest publicity stunts of all time
I think you are an optimist. If they exchange the battery packs in Feb 2013, everyone in Phoenix will be back to where we are now by the end of 2013. If the battery does not last in hot climate, it does not last. There is no way Nissan can change the battery chemistry or thermal management in such a short time to retrofit the AZ Leafs with a "hot weather pack".
I think at this point the only "right" thing to do for them is what somebody else on this thread suggested, offer to turn all the purchased Leafs into leases and give a full refund.
From the fact that so many LEAFS have lost capacity in AZ it seems this is a systematic bug, so they will need a long time to fix it.
What I do not get is how they
a) could have known about it and launch/sell the LEAF in AZ anyway ?
b) could NOT have known about this, given that it just takes 10-12 months of testing to see this happen ?
Some other random thought:
I read that some owners now cool their garages to preserve their batteries. This seems to defeat the purpose of an EV. That brings the carbon footprint right back to the level of an ICE.
EVDRIVER said:If a pack can be damaged by being in 120 degree heat for 24 hours then most certainly sitting in high temps under 120 for 8 hours etc is going to severely shorten the life. It is not as though hitting 120 for 24 hours just melts something. It's cumulative heat issues and does anyone think that sitting at 115 degrees for 24 hours has no effect just 120 as if it is a threshold? The tricky thing is the warranty does not state 24 continuous hours or 24 total hours at 120, odd that was not made clear like the painting statements.
Regardless the pack is not a sauce that breaks at a certain temp and the fact the warranty says 120 heat can damage the pack leads me to put up a red flag as a buyer. Nissan should have been more clear about degradation in high heat areas in the warranty but on the other hand I bet many people never even read the battery warranty before they bought the car, unclear or not. Does the situation suck? Yes! Were consumers not warmed, that's debatable. Some more data and time on this is needed as it is still a bit early in the process. One thing I know is how I would address this issue and it would not be with a dealer for more than a single visit and I suspect if it gets worse then something will be done by Nissan.
EdmondLeaf said:I do not need to be an gas or diesel engine specialist in order to maintain my car properly. Why I should battery expert to drive EV, I study manual and that should be sufficient to do things right. We are just small group, regular customers will decide about mass adoption.
For those that have decided they don't want the car because of this you can try arbitration, I have done this with an automaker and was very pleased with the outcome.
TNleaf said:However, someone that doesn't expose their car to the extreme temperatures is most certainly going to benefit from a longer battery life... in the same way someone that does "special" things to their ICE will benefit from longer service of their engine.
Dubai is quite a bit hotter than Phoenix according to weather.com. On average about 10*F higher. Summer month peak temps are not much different, but it cools down a lot more at night in comparison.Boomer23 said:Stoaty said:Mark Perry is quoted in this article as saying:Here's a link to the climate stats for Dubai on Wikipedia. Looks like Phoenix might be hotter than Dubai. Mark Perry might have chosen his words better:“We don’t need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that….
leafkabob said:1. Azdre...3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix
hill said:I'd be curious to know how many of the 3 to 10 AZ Leafs displaying inordinate capacity losses are getting 5 miles per kWh at the wall, versus 2. Or would those having large losses not be comfortable disclosing that.
No thanks Michael. I waded through every post in the thread to compile the list and I can't stomach the thought of doing it again.palmermd said:leafkabob said:1. Azdre...3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix
Very nice comprehensive list bob. I know it is probably a lot of work, but to make the list more complete you could also link the username to the post where it was reported. Might be too much work at this point, but just a thought.
leafkabob said:No thanks Michael. I waded through every post in the thread to compile the list and I can't stomach the thought of doing it again.
EdmondLeaf said:TNleaf said:However, someone that doesn't expose their car to the extreme temperatures is most certainly going to benefit from a longer battery life... in the same way someone that does "special" things to their ICE will benefit from longer service of their engine.
just slight correction, but I believe you agree, also will be great to know definition of "extreme temperatures"
"Do not expose a vehicle to ambient
temperatures above 120F (49C) for
over 24 hours."
"This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above
120F (49C) for over 24 hours"
+1 from meOrientExpress said:For those that have decided they don't want the car because of this you can try arbitration, I have done this with an automaker and was very pleased with the outcome.
This is the perfect and correct solution for everyone that believes that they have been deceived, bamboozled or that there is some cover-up, etc.. If you think that your car has a problem, then take it to your dealer and describe the problem that you believe needs to be fixed. After you do that 3 times, and the "problem" is not resolved to your satisfaction, then you can go into arbitration (check your state's lemon laws for specifics), and if arbitration rules in your favor, then the manufacturer will buy back your car.
LEAFfan said:hill said:I'd be curious to know how many of the 3 to 10 AZ Leafs displaying inordinate capacity losses are getting 5 miles per kWh at the wall, versus 2. Or would those having large losses not be comfortable disclosing that.
3-10? How can you miss often repeated posts?
And it's also been often repeated that loss of capacity has no effect on efficiency. Even if my LEAF battery pack drops to 50% capacity, I still can get 6.0m/kW h or higher.
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