How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[Jimmydreams]

...
Can you point me to where Nissan is telling us this is normal? ...

I can tell you that the EV project rep I talked confirmed that it is "normal" to loose 15% in one year. He also told me that he/the EV project is about as direct a line to corporate that one can get.

And you believed him? :roll:

 

[Herm]

Since we are all alarmed now, whats a fair used value for a year old Leaf with a missing capacity bar?.. any hope of selling one with two bars missing?

 

[LEAFfan]

Personally, I don't believe that it's the heat causing these capacity losses. I do know that TickTock's and mine sat for almost three months at the port in CA and who knows what damage could have been done then. The others could have been caused from topping off, letting it sit at 100% for long periods, or other abuses, or maybe theirs was left sitting at the port for months too. It could be 'normal' to lose 15% in about a year, then a leveling off....time will tell. Maybe ours was accelerated because of abuses at the port, but I'm willing to bet we will see many more lose a capacity bar and then we'll realize it is a normal occurrence even though the batteries are different from Tesla's.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Herm, do you drive a Leaf?

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Personally, I don't believe that it's the heat causing these capacity losses. I do know that TickTock's and mine sat for almost three months at the port in CA and who knows what damage could have been done then. The others could have been caused from topping off, letting it sit at 100% for long periods, or other abuses, or maybe theirs was left sitting at the port for months too. It could be 'normal' to lose 15% in about a year, then a leveling off....time will tell. Maybe ours was accelerated because of abuses at the port, but I'm willing to bet we will see many more lose a capacity bar and then we'll realize it is a normal occurrence even though the batteries are different from Tesla's.

If heat is not a problem wonder why battery warranty is void if car is exposed to 120F (49C) for over 24 hours

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above 120F (49C) for over 24 hours.

 

[LEAFfan]

Personally, I don't believe that it's the heat causing these capacity losses. I do know that TickTock's and mine sat for almost three months at the port in CA and who knows what damage could have been done then. The others could have been caused from topping off, letting it sit at 100% for long periods, or other abuses, or maybe theirs was left sitting at the port for months too. It could be 'normal' to lose 15% in about a year, then a leveling off....time will tell. Maybe ours was accelerated because of abuses at the port, but I'm willing to bet we will see many more lose a capacity bar and then we'll realize it is a normal occurrence even though the batteries are different from Tesla's.

If heat is not a problem wonder why battery warranty is void if car is exposed to 120F (49C) for over 24 hours

Okay, understand that even in the hottest heat here, it doesn't reach 120 degrees ambient in our garage. On the hottest day last year (118F) our garage was only 109. It would have to stay at 120 or higher for 24 hours to do any damage. Even when out in the summer heat, if it's going to be parked for any length of time, I always park in the shade. This isn't Death Valley (130+) as some of you may think.

 

[EVDrive]

OMG the sky is falling. It will fall on me unless Nissan buys back my Leaf.
4 people out of 25,000+ owners may already have issues. Or wait, is the sky not falling? Regardless, Nissan can't have my Leaf back. I need it.

This thread title is ridiculous. I can hardly believe that some people think it is helpful to become alarmist like this when there is so little data to go on.
I am a fan of the scientific method myself. Let's wait and collect some more data before jumping to premature reactionist conclusions.

 

[RegGuheert]

I am a fan of the scientific method myself. Let's wait and collect some more data before jumping to premature reactionist conclusions.

I'm very surprised that so many have confused this thread with a technical discussion such as those going on in the other areas. If this thread were in regard to a technical issue, then I would have offered a technical solution.

GaslessInSeattle stated the real issue here:

We all deserve more answers from Nissan on this, managing expectations is the name of the game and right now they are not doing a very good job, IMHO.

Whatever technical problems may or may not exist with the LEAF are truly the least of Nissan's problems. If their potential customers decide that the batteries may not "last" and that Nissan will not stand behind their product, all of their technical efforts to date will be for naught.

If Nissan plays their hand improperly, they will turn an issue which affects a small portion of the potential market into a massive disaster. Failing to communicate on this issue is absolutely the WORST thing they can do right now.

If they let their scientists study the problem much longer without taking some action to address the needs of their current and potential future customers, then it won't matter how great of a technical solution they have, they will have already failed.

 

[Nubo]

...Whatever technical problems may or may not exist with the LEAF are truly the least of Nissan's problems. If their potential customers decide that the batteries may not "last" and that Nissan will not stand behind their product, all of their technical efforts to date will be for naught.

If Nissan plays their hand improperly, they will turn an issue which affects a small portion of the potential market into a massive disaster. Failing to communicate on this issue is absolutely the WORST thing they can do right now.

If they let their scientists study the problem much longer without taking some action to address the needs of their current and potential future customers, then it won't matter how great of a technical solution they have, they will have already failed.

Although I do think the thread title and premise are a bit of hyperbole, I do agree wholeheartedly with the above opinion.

To illustrate I'll use my last car as an example: 2004 Mazda RX-8.

The car was awaited with great anticipation by many fans of the rotary engine. The new incarnation was supposed to deliver unheralded horsepower and mileage from a normally-aspirated rotary engine while meeting stringent emissions requirements.

Problems started immediately as the horsepower claims were found to be false. Engines were de-tuned in port when they were unable to meet EPA requirements for catalytic converter life. The de-tuning made the mixture overly-rich, causing further problems with flooding. Oh, and the mileage was nowhere NEAR what had been promised. This was just the beginning. As time went on, owners began experiencing engine failures -- particularly in (*ahem*) places like Phoenix. The list of problems continues...

Point being, Mazda did not get in front of these issues. There was a lot of silence, obfuscation and stonewalling. Dealers began complaining because in the Mazda world they live and die by the customer survey results. Poorer results mean less favorable allocations, etc... Mazda made the horrendous move of trying to placate the dealers by deciding that the RX-8 survey results would not count! RX-8 owners tempers went from a simmer to a full boil.

After quite a long time, Mazda did finally take steps in favor of the owners. The engine warranty was extended, for one thing. Unfortunately the failed engines were replaced by remanufactured engines that had even shorter lives than the factory engines.

At long last in 2009 there were design changes to rectify some of the engine's deficiencies. By then it was far too late. Sales had slowed to a trickle and nobody but die-hard rotary fans would even look at the car. Dealers still hated it. I don't think I saw a TV ad for the car after 2005.

I myself didn't have many of the problems even though mine was from the most problematic year of production. I did sell at about 55,000 miles though, figuring I was living on borrowed time. I'm sure there were plenty of other RX-8 customers with decent reliability stories. However the fact remains that the car never did reach the success Mazda had hoped. Sales fell in year 3 and continued to dwindle thereafter.

Had Mazda acted quickly instead of letting the problems fester, they might have turned things around.

I wonder if there's a Japanese culture issue that makes their car companies slow to react to problems? Generally they make great cars but when there's a problem...? Stonewalling just does NOT work in this day and age. I would advise folks not to shoot the messenger. And I'd advise Nissan to bust a move.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I agree that the title should be changed to something like this:

...Then I strongly suggest the title of the thread be changed to what you're saying. Something like: "Should Nissan switch to lease only sales in hot climates such as Phoenix?". ...

 

[skippycoyote]

OMG the sky is falling. It will fall on me unless Nissan buys back my Leaf.
4 people out of 25,000+ owners may already have issues. Or wait, is the sky not falling? Regardless, Nissan can't have my Leaf back. I need it.

This thread title is ridiculous. I can hardly believe that some people think it is helpful to become alarmist like this when there is so little data to go on.
I am a fan of the scientific method myself. Let's wait and collect some more data before jumping to premature reactionist conclusions.

I have to agree. I think it is too soon to press the "Panic" button. Yes, our AZ heat isn't always kind to batteries, though most of those concerns stem from the lead-acid batteries that so many of us have used to start our ICE cars over the years. My first car was a converted EV with lead-acid batteries. During the hot months, I had to be diligent about topping off the batteries with water, due to evaporation. We were told we would be lucky to get 2 years of life out of the batteries. We got 5 years out of them before we noticed a change in performance. Compared to the lead-acid batteries, lithium ion batteries are MUCH more tolerant of hot temperatures. Perhaps concerned LEAF drivers should contact local folks who have converted former ICE cars into EVs that run on lithium-ion batteries. I highly doubt they would be so willing to buy the more expensive lithium-ion batteries unless they had evidence that they would hold out for the long run. We know their capacity won't last forever, but, then again, nothing in the automotive world ever does!

 

[RegGuheert]

Perhaps concerned LEAF drivers should contact local folks who have converted former ICE cars into EVs that run on lithium-ion batteries.

But not all Li-ion batteries are created equal.

I have a much better idea: Nissan has the data from the first year of in-service operation of the fleet of LEAF vehicles. If they have not significantly changed the battery or it's management system, they should provide every prospective customer that logs onto the website or walks into a showroom a summary of the battery capacity degradation Nissan is seeing for actual LEAF owners in their local area. That report could show remaining capacity after one year for now and later it could include further years of data. I think average would be O.K. Since I think many will be able to follow that.

I can imagine a cover letter that says something like: "Nissan has engineered the LEAF to provide outstanding range without the consumption of any gasoline. The battery system in the LEAF is capable of operating over a very wide range of climates. However, since Nissan does not warranty the capacity of the LEAF battery, we want our customers to understand that the climate where you live may impact how quickly your LEAF battery may lose its capacity. In order to allow our customers to make fully informed decisions about your LEAF purchase, we are providing you with this report detailing the recent experiences of other LEAF customers in your area."

 

[FairwoodRed]

I can imagine a cover letter that says something like: "Nissan has engineered the LEAF to provide outstanding range without the consumption of any gasoline. The battery system in the LEAF is capable of operating over a very wide range of climates. However, since Nissan does not warranty the capacity of the LEAF battery, we want our customers to understand that the climate where you live may impact how quickly your LEAF battery may lose its capacity. In order to allow our customers to make fully informed decisions about your LEAF purchase, we are providing you with this report detailing the recent experiences of other LEAF customers in your area."

This sounds like something that GM would write to talk customers out of buying the Volt.

 

[LEAFfan]

We were told we would be lucky to get 2 years of life out of the batteries. We got 5 years out of them before we noticed a change in performance.

Whoever told you that obviously didn't know how an EV operates. They must have thought you had an alternator that turned over the electric motor because the reason you got 5 years is because EVs don't put the load on a battery like an ICE does. I've been out here for 15 years and haven't had a lead-acid battery last three years (went through 7 of 'em) yet nor has anyone that I've talked to had theirs last three years. The LEAF lead-acid battery will last much longer (I predict) since it's constantly trickled charged and doesn't have the load of an ICE car. In the Midwest, I could go 7-8 years with one because the cold doesn't affect them nearly as much as the heat out here. The jury is still out on these Lithium ones.

 

[RegGuheert]

This sounds like something that GM would write to talk customers out of buying the Volt.

True enough. Nissan gets a pass on capacity until now, since they haven't had hard data by region. Now they do.

In any case, word will get out in Phoenix and customers will demand this type of data. Ultimately, I think the hot-weather climates will end up going to EV offerings with battery temperature control but the LEAF will have the upper hand everywhere else due to the lower up-front and maintenance costs.

But the question remains: How do you define a "hot-weather climate"? Phoenix is definitely in the club! But who else? I think we will learn that soon enough.

 

[TomT]

I've got to believe that Las Vegas would also be a charter member of that club...

But the question remains: How do you define a "hot-weather climate"? Phoenix is definitely in the club! But who else? I think we will learn that soon enough.

 

[RegGuheert]

O.K. I toned down the title due to popular demand. I do think the new title better describes the discussions we are having.

So, what do you think Nissan should do at this point? Here are a few ideas which have been mentioned:

- Nothing! Caveat Emptor!
- Keep working the problem until it is better understood.
- Start communicating with customers and prospects about what they think they are seeing.
- Change corporate official position on how much capacity loss should be expected in hot climates like Phoenix.
- Stop sales in Phoenix until Nissan can formulate a position (leases only).
- Offer some form of compensation such as an option to convert to a lease to existing LEAF owners who are experiencing large drops.
- Share localized capacity loss information with prospective customers so that they can properly evaluate the lifetime battery costs.
- Offer a battery capacity warranty.
- Others?

 

[davewill]

... I would advise folks not to shoot the messenger. And I'd advise Nissan to bust a move.

He's not a "messenger" just a muckraker. He couldn't get traction for his FUD in the original thread so he created his own with the incendiary title...and still has to make every third post to keep it going. The sad part is he will probably succeed in getting his name in the news because of it.

 

[UkrainianKozak]

Can you imaging ICE car salespersons making a pitches like that at dealerships?
Hey what a nice kar! The engine will die in about 10 years on average, transmission will malfunction in about 7 years, enjoy your car!

The only meaningful pitch I think that could be made is Hey, Leaf battery will last longer then Volts, or we have Better battery pack than anyone on the market, or something like that. I can't imaging any dealers pitching for a doomsday or technological deficiencies...

I have a much better idea: Nissan has the data from the first year of in-service operation of the fleet of LEAF vehicles. If they have not significantly changed the battery or it's management system, they should provide every prospective customer that logs onto the website or walks into a showroom a summary of the battery capacity degradation Nissan is seeing for actual LEAF owners in their local area. That report could show remaining capacity after one year for now and later it could include further years of data. I think average would be O.K. Since I think many will be able to follow that.

I can imagine a cover letter that says something like: "Nissan has engineered the LEAF to provide outstanding range without the consumption of any gasoline. The battery system in the LEAF is capable of operating over a very wide range of climates. However, since Nissan does not warranty the capacity of the LEAF battery, we want our customers to understand that the climate where you live may impact how quickly your LEAF battery may lose its capacity. In order to allow our customers to make fully informed decisions about your LEAF purchase, we are providing you with this report detailing the recent experiences of other LEAF customers in your area."

 

[Herm]

I've been out here for 15 years and haven't had a lead-acid battery last three years (went through 7 of 'em) yet nor has anyone that I've talked to had theirs last three years.

You are talking about 12V batteries used to start cars?.. The usual practice of placing those batteries under the hood, next to a hot engine plus the Arizona heat is lethal to battery life.. some cars place the battery under the hood but in a separate compartment, or someplace else in the car.. those cars get much better results.