How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[surfingslovak]

...and I have a LEAF and Volt in Phoenix, AZ. I haven't noticed any battery capacity loss yet, but I think it's too early to stop selling the LEAF here. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

However, I am concerned and hope Nissan investigates and takes care of the affected owners. I did buy both cars and am starting to wish I had leased the LEAF.

RE: the Volt
Q. Battery Capacity over vehicle life.
A. Like all batteries, the amount of energy that the high voltage "propulsion" battery can store will decrease with time and miles driven. Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10% to as much as 30% of capacity over the warranty period.

That's better than 15% over the first year, but it seems the sample size is pretty small at this point to warrant a recall or stopping sales in Phoenix.

+1!

Couldn't agree more with everything you said in your post.

 

[Stoaty]

Here is my take on the situation:

1) The loss of one capacity bar in about one year in 5-6 cars in Arizona is definitely unexpected and concerning. Most of us probably figured that less than a 15% loss was hidden so we wouldn't see a change for several years.
2) If I lived in Arizona or a state with a similar climate I probably wouldn't purchase a Leaf until more information was available about this potential problem. I wouldn't worry about leasing, though.
3) I hope that Nissan studies this issue carefully and either takes some action to fix these cars under warranty or issues a statement that clarifies what is to be expected in regard to battery capacity over time, particularly in states with high summer temperatures. While it doesn't have to be immediately addressed, prolonged silence on this issue would not be a good response.

 

[Jimmydreams]

there seem to be two competing threads on this topic, with the OP starting this one with an hysterical headline while the other one was ongoing.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He didnt seem to be making headway there with his argument.
It is clear to me that is a tactic to add heat and fury rather than light to the discussion.

And threads like this are fodder for the EV hatin' bloggers out there. :x

Look, the OP lives in Virginia and isn't part of the group of people he proposes be affected by his 'ban'.

The OP only has the anecdotal evidence posted here (with no real 'checks and balances') as basis for his idea, not actual numbers and any real research into any possible problems.

In short, the OP is neither affected by, nor an expert in what's going on.....

We're all early adopters. No first generation product is perfect, and I doubt Nissan failed to test in severe environments..... I suggest we all take a deep breath and keep an eye on things without getting hysterical.

Just my $.02.

 

[DesertDenizen]

I am with Stoaty. Living here in Tucson perhaps I should have leased rather than bought. However I am not going to fret about it.

 

[RegGuheert]

And threads like this are fodder for the EV hatin' bloggers out there. :x

I did a Google search before posting this thread. I got MANY, MANY hits from 'Nissan LEAF capacity bar' that talked about this situation. Point being it's all over the internet already. Don't shoot the messenger.

Look, the OP lives in Virginia and isn't part of the group of people he proposes be affected by his 'ban'.

And...? So if Nissan's corporate position is to tell LEAF owners that 15% capacity loss in a year is "normal" but at the same time decides NOT to tell prospective LEAF buyers the same thing then we should all feel compelled to follow suit? I'm sorry, I love my LEAF, but I have a REAL problem with that form of corporatism.

The OP only has the anecdotal evidence posted here (with no real 'checks and balances') as basis for his idea, not actual numbers and any real research into any possible problems.

That's right. But I do know for a fact that Nissan NEVER told me that a 15% capacity drop in 1 year would be considered "normal" by Nissan. I believe that no one else has been told that before purchase either. If anyone was told that by Nissan BEFORE purchasing a LEAF, I would be glad to hear about it.

In short, the OP is neither affected by, nor an expert in what's going on.....

I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. If all the evidence is anecdotal, and it is, you cannot be sure that I am not affected. I own a Nissan LEAF. Perhaps I, too, will see a 15% capacity drop after one year. I seriously doubt that, but I have nothing from Nissan which tells me otherwise.

We're all early adopters. No first generation product is perfect, and I doubt Nissan failed to test in severe environments.....

I doubt that, too. They need to explain what is going on with the LEAFs in Phoenix.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

RegGuheert, it may be premature to suggest that we throw the breaks on the sale of Leaf's in Phoenix, but I have to agree generally that this is a huge issue and the way Nissan is dealing with it is making the situation worse. Look, at the very least we now know that even with mostly 5 stars on a battery's report card that has premature loss showing on the dash, that the test is virtually meaningless and we also know that if Nissan considers 15% in one year to be gradual that the battery warranty is a very thin margin away from being absolutely worthless! I am alarmed and I have every right to be even though I live in a cool climate, as I now know how lame Nissan will be if I have any kind of capacity issue with the Leaf. At the very least this is going to lead to a marketing fiasco for Nissan if they don't nip this in the bud and come clean with what they know are the true expectations of range. The first year of a cars life is typically considered the break in period, if a 15% loss in capacity is considered part of this break in, then the suggested range of the car should be under stated with that in mind. It's just not fair for folks to buy the car thinking they can do their commute only to find within a year or so that it's no longer possible. We all deserve more answers from Nissan on this, managing expectations is the name of the game and right now they are not doing a very good job, IMHO.

 

[Herm]

It is clear to me that is a tactic to add heat and fury rather than light to the discussion.

I mostly agree with you Thankyou, but you have a tendency to attack the messenger.. keep an eye on that.

See what I did there?

 

[Herm]

Look, at the very least we now know that even with mostly 5 stars on a battery's report card that has premature loss showing on the dash, that the test is virtually meaningless and we also know that if Nissan considers 15% in one year to be gradual that the battery warranty is a very thin margin away from being absolutely worthless!

15% in one year is gradual, 15% in 3 days is not.. besides that there is NO capacity warranty. Get a Volt if you want such a warranty.

 

[Jimmydreams]

And threads like this are fodder for the EV hatin' bloggers out there. :x

I did a Google search before posting this thread. I got MANY, MANY hits from 'Nissan LEAF capacity bar' that talked about this situation. Point being it's all over the internet already. Don't shoot the messenger.

All you're doing is adding to those Google searches with this thread. Being "all over the internet already" has never been a factual basis for anything.

And...? So if Nissan's corporate position is to tell LEAF owners that 15% capacity loss in a year is "normal" but at the same time decides NOT to tell prospective LEAF buyers the same thing then we should all feel compelled to follow suit? I'm sorry, I love my LEAF, but I have a REAL problem with that form of corporatism.

If 15% loss were 'normal', then why is it so few people are effected by it? I'm not dismissing Nissan's obligation here, but merely pointing out that if this were more commonplace, you'd be hearing about it by more than a handful of owners. I say we all need to relax.

The OP only has the anecdotal evidence posted here (with no real 'checks and balances') as basis for his idea, not actual numbers and any real research into any possible problems.

That's right. But I do know for a fact that Nissan NEVER told me that a 15% capacity drop in 1 year would be considered "normal" by Nissan. I believe that no one else has been told that before purchase either. If anyone was told that by Nissan BEFORE purchasing a LEAF, I would be glad to hear about it.

Can you point me to where Nissan is telling us this is normal? Can you also point to where Nissan refuses to do anything? I've seen posts where at least one of those affected has yet to go to Nissan because they're still working with the dealer. Wrong move, IMHO, because the dealer is an individually owned reseller, NOT the manufacturer. But as of yet, none of us know what Nissan is or is not doing....we only have (wait for it) anecdotal threads and blog posts about it.

In short, the OP is neither affected by, nor an expert in what's going on.....

I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. If all the evidence is anecdotal, and it is, you cannot be sure that I am not affected. I own a Nissan LEAF. Perhaps I, too, will see a 15% capacity drop after one year. I seriously doubt that, but I have nothing from Nissan which tells me otherwise.

And neither do the other 10,000+ Leaf owners. At this stage, my MAIN point remains that the final evidence is not in..., but hysterical posts like this do zero good and potentially lots of bad. Let's discuss the issues, but to call for a BAN? That's a little extreme in my opinion.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

...
Can you point me to where Nissan is telling us this is normal? ...

I can tell you that the EV project rep I talked confirmed that it is "normal" to loose 15% in one year. He also told me that he/the EV project is about as direct a line to corporate that one can get.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

well how about 30% in one year, is that gradual? I mean if 3 days is not gradual but a year is, seems to me the sky's the limit. I bought the car with the understanding that gradual loss was to be expected, say 20% over 5 years. I also bought the car with the understanding that it had a superior BMS that protected it from the ravages of normal use. I agree that Nissan needs to do a better job at defining "gradual" and nailing down what is causing several Leafs in the same region to loose so much capacity in such a short time... otherwise this could blow up in a huge way for the entire EV movement.

Look, at the very least we now know that even with mostly 5 stars on a battery's report card that has premature loss showing on the dash, that the test is virtually meaningless and we also know that if Nissan considers 15% in one year to be gradual that the battery warranty is a very thin margin away from being absolutely worthless!

15% in one year is gradual, 15% in 3 days is not.. besides that there is NO capacity warranty. Get a Volt if you want such a warranty.

 

[RegGuheert]

All you're doing is adding to those Google searches with this thread.

Frankly, if I were shopping for an EV in Phoenix and did a Google search on 'LEAF Phoenix' I would be glad to read about this potentially major issue so that I would have clear questions to ask my dealer BEFORE I made a purchase.

If 15% loss were 'normal', then why is it so few people are effected by it? I'm not dismissing Nissan's obligation here, but merely pointing out that if this were more commonplace, you'd be hearing about it by more than a handful of owners. I say we all need to relax.

I'm not sure I buy the assertion you are making here. While I agree that only a few LEAF owners have crossed the 15% (indicated) threshold to date, that does not mean there are not hundreds more that are beyond 10%, at least in very hot climates. Yes, I am making an assumption about what other LEAFs are doing, but I think it is a reasonable assumption given the magnitude of the degradation seen. I do understand that you and others disagree with me here.

Can you point me to where Nissan is telling us this is normal? Can you also point to where Nissan refuses to do anything? I've seen posts where at least one of those affected has yet to go to Nissan because they're still working with the dealer. Wrong move, IMHO, because the dealer is an individually owned reseller, NOT the manufacturer. But as of yet, none of us know what Nissan is or is not doing....we only have (wait for it) anecdotal threads and blog posts about it.

I'm under the impression that TickTock is working directly with Nissan since he has referenced "Nissan engineers". Since I don't know of anyone at a dealership that I would call an engineer, I assumed he was working with Nissan. I could very well be wrong.

And neither do the other 10,000+ Leaf owners. At this stage, my MAIN point remains that the final evidence is not in..., but hysterical posts like this do zero good and potentially lots of bad. Let's discuss the issues, but to call for a BAN? That's a little extreme in my opinion.

I'm suggested that Nissan move all sales in the hot locales over to leases until they have an answer for this. That's a little different than a ban. Most leases can be turned into sales along the way or at the end, if desired. Think of the good will Nissan would create by telling prospective customers "We are unwilling to sell you a LEAF at this time because we are seeing some concerning data with our product in this area. We think it might be heat-related, but we are not sure. What we WILL do is offer you a 3-year lease at a great rate. That way you can enjoy the benefits of driving our outstanding EV today while we ensure that you do not get stuck with any excessive problems or expenses related to the battery."

 

[Stoaty]

I can tell you that the EV project rep I talked confirmed that it is "normal" to loose 15% in one year. He also told me that he/the EV project is about as direct a line to corporate that one can get.

"Normal" under what conditions of use? We clearly have some people who haven't lost anything (Abasile) and others who lost 15%. Most of the rest are in the middle. Also, if this is true that fact should have been (and should now be) disclosed by Nissan prior to sale. The "80% capacity left in 5 years" estimate is very misleading if it is 15% the first year and 1% per year thereafter. "Gradual" suggests to most people that the rate would be relatively constant over time, not a relatively "abrupt" decrease followed by a slower decrease. I'm pretty sure most of us assumed that the capacity would decrease in a fairly linear manner to 80% over 5 years, not by a steep dropoff the first year and a much slower decrease thereafter. If it is "normal" then for planning purposes before purchase you have to assume the real range is only 85% of the EPA range. That would still work fine for my driving pattern, but might not for many others.

 

[shrink]

15% in one year is gradual, 15% in 3 days is not.. besides that there is NO capacity warranty. Get a Volt if you want such a warranty.

I don't think you can definitively say that 15% in a year is gradual. If Nissan advertised the LEAF as having a 72 mile EPA range with 15% less battery capacity after 1-year, I don't think many people would have bought the car. While most of us expected gradual loss, 15% for a few owners who have posted here is undoubtedly concerning. I do get the sense that Nissan is figuring things out as we go along.

At this stage, my MAIN point remains that the final evidence is not in..., but hysterical posts like this do zero good and potentially lots of bad. Let's discuss the issues, but to call for a BAN? That's a little extreme in my opinion.

Very well said. Getting back to the OP, I think it's premature to stop selling LEAF's in Phoenix. There is simply not enough evidence and as a Phoenix LEAF owner with 10 months of ownership I am particularly concerned. There are also two threads on this already. I further agree that this one is redundant. We should see how the reports evolve in the original threads. Cases might be addressed in a way that satisfies most, more people might add to the concerns, or there may be no further reports. We really just don't know yet.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

The "80% capacity left in 5 years"

Ofical Nissan position - should be 70 - 80% left after 10 years 1:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShtvd5jJHQ

 

[padamson1]

I'm suggested that Nissan move all sales in the hot locales over to leases until they have an answer for this. That's a little different than a ban. Most leases can be turned into sales along the way or at the end, if desired. Think of the good will Nissan would create by telling prospective customers "We are unwilling to sell you a LEAF at this time because we are seeing some concerning data with our product in this area. We think it might be heat-related, but we are not sure. What we WILL do is offer you a 3-year lease at a great rate. That way you can enjoy the benefits of driving our outstanding EV today while we ensure that you do not get stuck with any excessive problems or expenses related to the battery."

Then I strongly suggest the title of the thread be changed to what you're saying. Something like: "Should Nissan switch to lease only sales in hot climates such as Phoenix?".

It appears to me that the majority of posts on this thread believe it is premature to take such action and I agree. TickTock has reported a problem. Is it caused by his charging habits? Phoenix's climate? Driving style? Nissan design flaw? Until I hear from TickTock what Nissan's response was and whether it matches his use of the vehicle, I'm keeping my mouth shut and continuing to follow Nissan's advice when it comes to battery care.

Until all the facts are in, any other discussions are just speculation, which doesn't do anybody on MNL any benefit and certainly doesn't do any good for EV's in general.

 

[Nubo]

...
Can you point me to where Nissan is telling us this is normal? ...

I can tell you that the EV project rep I talked confirmed that it is "normal" to loose 15% in one year. He also told me that he/the EV project is about as direct a line to corporate that one can get.

Did they give any "normal" values for 2, 3, 5 years?

 

[RegGuheert]

The "80% capacity left in 5 years"

Ofical Nissan position - should be 70 - 80% left after 10 years 1:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShtvd5jJHQ

Thanks for the link!

Here is another interesting quote from Mark Perry in that video:

3:37

Heat is definitely not a friend of batteries, but I'm talking about severe 130, 140 degrees Fahrenheit kind of heat. So if you're in that situation, again, this is not a situ..., this is not a "you're just parked in the parking lot and it's 110 degrees, you need to worry about it." This is you're parked in, pick, Death Valley, and it's 130 degrees outside. It's August, and you're gonna leave the car there for a week. That's bad. Don't do that. But just normal conditions, you don't have to worry about it. Uh, but...again, long-term storage, don't park you Nissan LEAF, or any electric vehicle, where it's gonna be more than 120, 130 degrees.

I have to say that this whole idea of 110F:GOOD 120F:BAD really does not, in any way, reflect the reality of what goes on in a Li-ion battery. Yes, there may be a thermal runaway condition that could happen at som high temperature, but to act as if that is the only issue that a customer needs to worry about is not at all sincere on Nissan's part, given that they do not warranty capacity.

 

[adric22]

My leaf made it through the record-breaking Texas heatwave last year. Plus I charge to 100% every day. My Leaf seams no worse for it. I'm not worried about it. Besides, I knew there would be capacity loss when I bought the car and I knew that it would still be a useful car to me even if it got down to 20 miles range since that is still twice my daily commute.

 

[Boomer23]

I'm suggested that Nissan move all sales in the hot locales over to leases until they have an answer for this. That's a little different than a ban. Most leases can be turned into sales along the way or at the end, if desired. Think of the good will Nissan would create by telling prospective customers "We are unwilling to sell you a LEAF at this time because we are seeing some concerning data with our product in this area. We think it might be heat-related, but we are not sure. What we WILL do is offer you a 3-year lease at a great rate. That way you can enjoy the benefits of driving our outstanding EV today while we ensure that you do not get stuck with any excessive problems or expenses related to the battery."

Then I strongly suggest the title of the thread be changed to what you're saying. Something like: "Should Nissan switch to lease only sales in hot climates such as Phoenix?".

It appears to me that the majority of posts on this thread believe it is premature to take such action and I agree. TickTock has reported a problem. Is it caused by his charging habits? Phoenix's climate? Driving style? Nissan design flaw? Until I hear from TickTock what Nissan's response was and whether it matches his use of the vehicle, I'm keeping my mouth shut and continuing to follow Nissan's advice when it comes to battery care.

Until all the facts are in, any other discussions are just speculation, which doesn't do anybody on MNL any benefit and certainly doesn't do any good for EV's in general.

I have to agree with padamson and Jimmydreams. There's not enough information yet about what this lost bar means to actual range. We don't know Nissan's corporate position on this, because nobody has taken it to that level yet. And someone from outside of Arizona calling for a change in sales policy in Arizona is simply out of place and way premature.
EDIT: Oh and we also don't know if this loss of a bar represents the beginning of a continuing downward slope or if it is something like the Tesla Roadster owners have reported; a first year drop down to a plateau that lasts years.

There are already two threads running on this topic, and they are generally running along with lots of information and very little panic. Why start another one that screams "Hey, EV haters, there's something else wrong with yet another EV. Here lap it up and spread it all over the blogosphere."?

If you have comments to make, make them in the thread that already exists instead of starting a new thread with an alarmist title.