How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[TomT]

Actually, if I was considering a Leaf in Phoenix, leasing would be the only way to go for exactly this reason. That way the problem then becomes Nissan's, not yours.

I'll be honest, as a potential buyer of a Nissan Leaf in Phoenix, this is concerning. We are actually seriously considering leasing a Leaf but if these claims are true, we may not do it at this time or in the near future.

 

[surfingslovak]

I actually do not have a set daily commute as I work from home. I did log a typical week with my car, using it as if it was the Leaf, and ranged between 20-75 miles per day depending on what customers I had to go see and what errands I had to run

Would you know what the temperature is like in your garage by any chance? Is it about what's outside or a bit cooler? Many people expect capacity loss to level off after the first year, but it's too soon to tell. And as Tony said above, while this might be disconcerting to see and hear, there is only a relatively small group of vehicles that's affected as of this writing.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I actually do not have a set daily commute as I work from home. I did log a typical week with my car, using it as if it was the Leaf, and ranged between 20-75 miles per day

If you check out the range chart from the link in my signature line, you'll see that if you just slow down a bit, even a 15% capacity reduction can still comfortably realize 75 miles. Just stay off the freeways going fast !!!!

While I wouldn't set this as a standard, LEAFfan knocked out 151 miles in Phoenix with 10-12% capacity loss.

Go for it. General Motors would love nothing more than for people to stop buying LEAFs.

 

[DaveEV]

I actually do not have a set daily commute as I work from home. I did log a typical week with my car, using it as if it was the Leaf, and ranged between 20-75 miles per day

If you check out the range chart from the link in my signature line, you'll see that if you just slow down a bit, even a 15% capacity reduction can still comfortably realize 75 miles. Just stay off the freeways going fast !!!!

While I wouldn't set this as a standard, LEAFfan knocked out 151 miles in Phoenix with 10-12% capacity loss.

Go for it.

+1 No reason not to lease one if that's what you were planning to do.

 

[RegGuheert]

No reason not to lease one if that's what you were planning to do.

Except you may need to either drive very slowly or charge away from home during the third year of your lease in order to reach those farther-away customers and be able to make it back home. If the 15%/year LEAF battery capacity drop continues unabated, then you will almost certainly need to charge away from home to make a 75-mile round trip in Phoenix.

Will that rate of capacity drop continue? We have no way to know! Nissan certainly does not guaranty anything related to battery capacity. They also NEVER gave ANY indication that a 15% capacity drop during the first year of ownership was a possibility in Phoenix, even though their proving grounds where they tested the LEAF is right near there. Finally, Nissan has remained completely mute about the fact that some Phoenix LEAFs are reporting that level of drop after only one year of use.

So, you have to ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you?

 

[LEAFfan]

Remember, there will be many DCQCs very soon so it won't really matter if you lose some capacity or a lot. I believe Nissan's will be free for awhile and then later maybe only a nominal fee to use them. They've developed a QC that costs less than $10K and will be at all the Nissan's dealers soon.

 

[Herm]

I did log a typical week with my car, using it as if it was the Leaf, and ranged between 20-75 miles per day depending on what customers I had to go see and what errands I had to run.

That sounds marginal without opportunity recharging in-between errands.. consider a Volt or Coda instead, or at least a 2013 Leaf with the high speed L2 charger.

Both cars cost about the same as a Leaf and they should be immune from high heat and 100% charges. How many days did you do 75 mile runs?

 

[KJD]

Remember, there will be many DCQCs very soon so it won't really matter if you lose some capacity or a lot. I believe Nissan's will be free for awhile and then later maybe only a nominal fee to use them. They've developed a QC that costs less than $10K and will be at all the Nissan's dealers soon.

Not sure where you got that information from, but it might be wrong. I have talked to the 3 Nissan dealers near me and not one has any plans to install DC QC in the future.

When I asked why not and all 3 said the same thing. The cost is too high.

 

[LEAFfan]

That info came straight from Mark Perry in an online webcast interview a little while ago.

 

[HXGuy]

I did log a typical week with my car, using it as if it was the Leaf, and ranged between 20-75 miles per day depending on what customers I had to go see and what errands I had to run.

That sounds marginal without opportunity recharging in-between errands.. consider a Volt or Coda instead, or at least a 2013 Leaf with the high speed L2 charger.

Both cars cost about the same as a Leaf and they should be immune from high heat and 100% charges. How many days did you do 75 mile runs?

My breakdown over 6 days looked like this...

5/14/2012 46.4
5/15/2012 33.8
5/16/2012 11.4
5/17/2012 74.2
5/18/2012 38.1
5/19/2012 59.7

The more I think about it though, the more the Leaf doesn't seem right for me and my wife. I love the tech part of it and the money savings vs the other cars we are considering but I was paying attention to my driving yesterday and if I'm really honest with myself, I like to drive pretty quick. I had to go out to Chandler (which the Leaf wouldn't be able to do in one charge anyway from where I live, it was 94.4 miles roundtrip, basically all freeway) but more importantly, I was doing 80-85 most of the way which is how I typically drive on the 101 along with a lot of other people. I tried for a while to go 65-ish and it felt like I was crawling along. In my current car, I get worse gas mileage than the EPA estimates because of my driving style so who knows how I would do in the Leaf.

 

[shrink]

[My breakdown over 6 days looked like this...

5/14/2012 46.4
5/15/2012 33.8
5/16/2012 11.4
5/17/2012 74.2
5/18/2012 38.1
5/19/2012 59.7

The more I think about it though, the more the Leaf doesn't seem right for me and my wife. I love the tech part of it and the money savings vs the other cars we are considering but I was paying attention to my driving yesterday and if I'm really honest with myself, I like to drive pretty quick. I had to go out to Chandler (which the Leaf wouldn't be able to do in one charge anyway from where I live, it was 94.4 miles roundtrip, basically all freeway) but more importantly, I was doing 80-85 most of the way which is how I typically drive on the 101 along with a lot of other people. I tried for a while to go 65-ish and it felt like I was crawling along. In my current car, I get worse gas mileage than the EPA estimates because of my driving style so who knows how I would do in the Leaf.

With any EV you're going to have to slow down to get better range. It's the nature of the beast. But your driving habits sound like mine pre-EV. I sold my Honda S2000 convertible for LEAF down payment and solar panels on the house. I live in central Phoenix and actually still have some property in Chandler. For me to Phoenix and Chandler and back is about 50-60 miles RT and I actually plan on doing that this Friday in the LEAF. I can make it on 80%, but your drive sounds father. If you do get an EV, your driving habits will change and you'll get used to adjusting in order to maximize that range. There is also a Quickcharger not far off your route at Toyota Riverview.

However, based on the small sample above and hearing your other concerns, I think a Volt would be better for you. I just bought one of those, too. You would still mostly be on electric and you would not use much gas. My 3rd day with the Volt I got 41 EV miles (Phoenix to Sun Lakes and back) most of which were highway with A/C and driving at 65-70 mph. 0% financing on the Volt through the end of the month, too; lease rates are crazy low as well $250-$350/month depending on options.

 

[GRA]

[My breakdown over 6 days looked like this...

5/14/2012 46.4
5/15/2012 33.8
5/16/2012 11.4
5/17/2012 74.2
5/18/2012 38.1
5/19/2012 59.7

The more I think about it though, the more the Leaf doesn't seem right for me and my wife. I love the tech part of it and the money savings vs the other cars we are considering but I was paying attention to my driving yesterday and if I'm really honest with myself, I like to drive pretty quick. I had to go out to Chandler (which the Leaf wouldn't be able to do in one charge anyway from where I live, it was 94.4 miles roundtrip, basically all freeway) but more importantly, I was doing 80-85 most of the way which is how I typically drive on the 101 along with a lot of other people. I tried for a while to go 65-ish and it felt like I was crawling along. In my current car, I get worse gas mileage than the EPA estimates because of my driving style so who knows how I would do in the Leaf.

With any EV you're going to have to slow down to get better range. It's the nature of the beast. But your driving habits sound like mine pre-EV. I sold my Honda S2000 convertible for LEAF down payment and solar panels on the house. I live in central Phoenix and actually still have some property in Chandler. For me to Phoenix and Chandler and back is about 50-60 miles RT and I actually plan on doing that this Friday in the LEAF. I can make it on 80%, but your drive sounds farther. If you do get an EV, your driving habits will change and you'll get used to adjusting in order to maximize that range. There is also a Quickcharger not far off your route at Toyota Riverview.

However, based on the small sample above and hearing your other concerns, I think a Volt would be better for you. I just bought one of those, too. You would still mostly be on electric and you would not use much gas. My 3rd day with the Volt I got 41 EV miles (Phoenix to Sun Lakes and back) most of which were highway with A/C and driving at 65-70 mph. 0% financing on the Volt through the end of the month, too; lease rates are crazy low as well $250-$350/month depending on options.

+1. You're definitely going to be pushing it some days in a Leaf, especially near the end of a lease. And the Volt has a TMS and uses a smaller portion of its total battery capacity, to make sure it will last the warranty period. With the Leaf, you're going to have to choose the driving speed and route to match the required range; in the Volt, you don't. And if you get some new customer who's even farther away, no problem in the Volt, but possibly major hassle in the Leaf.

 

[Ingineer]

I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you in this area, Phil, but isn't it obvious that current is also being used to run the high voltage cooling system (which is cooling the charger and the DC-DC converter)? Whether that is also subtracted from the 3.4kW or is treated as a concurrent drain from the battery may be not much more than a matter of semantics, but I understood it amounted to about 0.3kW.

Ray

This is exactly what I was referring to when I wrote the "Leaf's required systems". It's less than 300w when charging, but it can be that high when ready.

-Phil

 

[dsr302]

I just went through this thread and the 'Phoenix 11 bar' thread and want a clarification on the battery warranty.

What is the battery warranty actually?....my dealer's statement sounded like the battery will hold at least 80% of its charge after 8 yrs or 100K miles. However, when I read these threads, I gathered that there is something in the wording of the warranty that doesn't cover the capacity....so to what does the 80% in the warranty refer?....or is there no reference to 80% in the warranty?

 

[mwalsh]

I just went through this thread and the 'Phoenix 11 bar' thread and want a clarification on the battery warranty.

What is the battery warranty actually?....my dealer's statement sounded like the battery will hold at least 80% of its charge after 8 yrs or 100K miles. However, when I read these threads, I gathered that there is something in the wording of the warranty that doesn't cover the capacity....so to what does the 80% in the warranty refer?....or is there no reference to 80% in the warranty?

No reference to any battery capacity figures in the warranty that I recall. If a dealer says something like that to you, be sure to get it in writing - they may be on the hook for your replacement pack when the folks at Nissan get through staring at you blankly!

 

[Stoaty]

I just went through this thread and the 'Phoenix 11 bar' thread and want a clarification on the battery warranty.

What is the battery warranty actually?....my dealer's statement sounded like the battery will hold at least 80% of its charge after 8 yrs or 100K miles. However, when I read these threads, I gathered that there is something in the wording of the warranty that doesn't cover the capacity....so to what does the 80% in the warranty refer?....or is there no reference to 80% in the warranty?

The only capacity warranty on the battery is if one of the cells suddenly goes bad during the 8/100K period Nissan will replace it. "Gradual" loss of capacity is not covered at all. Not much of a warranty, when you think about it. Still glad I have my Leaf, though.

 

[dsr302]

They pulled out a 3-Fold Pamphlet that was in the car....it is paperwork that the dealer is supposed to review with the LEAF-buyer and have the buyer sign. There is some verbiage in that document that refers to the battery warranty.

It may be the information to which you refer to Stoaty.....8 yr 100k cell failure.....which is not the 80%.

 

[HXGuy]

I think I am out of the Leaf game for now but I will look at the Leaf or other electric vehicles in the future. Looking at some diesel Mercedes now as I think that will work out better with my driving style and such.

 

[cwerdna]

I think I am out of the Leaf game for now but I will look at the Leaf or other electric vehicles in the future. Looking at some diesel Mercedes now as I think that will work out better with my driving style and such.

Why diesel and why Mercedes? I wouldn't buy a Mercedes. Their reliability is hit or miss, maintenance isn't cheap and none of their vehicles appeal to me nor are a good value, in my book.

 

[Alric]

Ugh. And their diesels are only green (blue) washing.