How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[KJD]

I think I am out of the Leaf game for now but I will look at the Leaf or other electric vehicles in the future. Looking at some diesel Mercedes now as I think that will work out better with my driving style and such.

I used to own a Mercedes Diesel and I will say it was a very nice car. Not as good as the Leaf, but better than most.

Everyone has different needs but for me the range on the Leaf has met my needs about 99% of the time. The tradeoff was worth it for me.

If you really do need more range than the Leaf has, why not look at the Tesla model S. Depending on what model Mercedes you are looking at the price might be about the same as a Tesla.

Do you really want to predict what the price of Diesel will be 2 or 3 years from now ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think this post is selfish, self-centered and not what we really need to address!!

after all, only SOME of you in Phoenix are suffering capacity loss.

well in WA, i can attest that ALL OF US are experiencing reduced range EVERY WINTER!!! what is Nissan gonna do about that!!

:roll:

 

[ERG4ALL]

I haven't slogged through all 13 pages of comment, but I hope someone has pointed out that the loss of one bar out of 12 is about an 8% loss, not 15, or am I missing something?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I haven't slogged through all 13 pages of comment, but I hope someone has pointed out that the loss of one bar out of 12 is about an 8% loss, not 15, or am I missing something?

ya could be. when you lose a bar its accepted that all of that bar is gone. now, how close are you to losing the 2nd bar? and also each bar is not created equally as well

 

[91040]

I haven't slogged through all 13 pages of comment, but I hope someone has pointed out that the loss of one bar out of 12 is about an 8% loss, not 15, or am I missing something?

Reportedly, the service manual shows that you lose the first capacity bar at 85%. They are not linear.

 

[mwalsh]

well in WA, i can attest that ALL OF US are experiencing reduced range EVERY WINTER!!! what is Nissan gonna do about that!! :roll:

Yes, but that only appears to be temporary for you guys, and in summer time your packs have thus far appeared to return to full health. I'm afraid the same probably can't be expected for those down south once the temps cool for fall!

 

[RegGuheert]

after all, only SOME of you in Phoenix are suffering capacity loss.

Every LEAF in Phoenix is suffering capacity loss. It's certainly true that not every LEAF in Phoenix has reported a 15% drop in capacity in the first year, but the fact that several already have is alarming.

I have a longstanding belief that there will, at some point in the future, be a backlash from LEAF owners who are disenchanted with their purchase because the car failed to meet their needs due to reduced capacity earlier than they had imagined. When people ask me about the LEAF, I tell them this about this prediction. But I've always imaged that would occur after about five years, which would not be a big deal given that it is in the ballpark of expectations which have been set. But at a capacity drop rate of 15%/ year, or anything in this ballpark, there is a REAL possibility of MAJOR backlash from disgruntled customers. The very LAST thing that Nissan or EV fans should want right now is for a large number people to purchase the LEAF when it really is not a good fit for at least the first five years of ownership.

As such, I don't agree with the sentiment that the best thing Nissan can do right now is sell a boatload of LEAFs. While I would love nothing more than for Nissan to sell a LOT of LEAFs, my strong preference would be for them to NOT SELL A SINGLE ONE to anyone who is not a good fit. Phoenix has the potential to turn into a real disaster if the true outcome is anywhere close to as it appears today. Nissan simply cannot afford to have bad press from a large fraction of customers from a large city or area. The advertised range of the LEAF is already uncomfortably short for most people that I know. If they then start believing that EVs will quickly lose the little range that they have, their fears will be fully confirmed.

So, yes, Nissan and we should continue to encourage people to purchase a LEAF if it is a good fit. At the same time, we need to actively discourage purchases by those who may become dissatisfied and instead encourage leases. In Phoenix, we should also reign in reasonable range expectations over time until the dust settles on this issue. This is true even for a lease since the slope of range reduction may turn out to be quite high.

Nissan needs to take some sort of action very soon. IMO, if they continue to sell LEAFs in Phoenix as if nothing has changed, they will open themselves up to massive problems. (Or, if the capacity drops are not real or are just 5%/year or some such, then they need to explain what is going on.) It is very different to say "we didn't know" than to say "we knew, but we didn't want our potential customers to know."

 

[TonyWilliams]

I haven't slogged through all 13 pages of comment, but I hope someone has pointed out that the loss of one bar out of 12 is about an 8% loss, not 15, or am I missing something?

Yes, you did. Neither the battery capacity gauge, nor battery temperature gauge uses linear increments.

 

[mwalsh]

I have a longstanding belief that there will, at some point in the future, be a backlash from LEAF owners who are disenchanted with their purchase because the car failed to meet their needs due to reduced capacity earlier than they had imagined. When people ask me about the LEAF, I tell them this about this prediction. But I've always imaged that would occur after about five years, which would not be a big deal given that it is in the ballpark of expectations which have been set. But at a capacity drop rate of 15%/ year, or anything in this ballpark, there is a REAL possibility of MAJOR backlash from disgruntled customers. The very LAST thing that Nissan or EV fans should want right now is for a large number people to purchase the LEAF when it really is not a good fit for at least the first five years of ownership.

...snip....

Or, if the capacity drops are not real or are just 5%/year or some such, then they need to explain what is going on. It is very different to say "we didn't know" than to say "we knew, but we didn't want our potential customers to know."

[/quote]

Must say that I agree with this sentiment entirely. I figured the pack would be good for around 5 years before I started having to jump through hoops to make sure the car continued to meet my needs. The first 15 months it looked like this was almost certainly going to be the case. The last 2 months...not so much. Now instead of range anxiety, I have the beginnings of pack anxiety! :shock:

 

[RegGuheert]

Must say that I agree with this sentiment entirely. I figured the pack would be good for around 5 years before I started having to jump through hoops to make sure the car continued to meet my needs. The first 15 months it looked like this was almost certainly going to be the case. The last 2 months...not so much. Now instead of range anxiety, I have the beginnings of pack anxiety! :shock:

Are you noticing any actual changes in your available range, or is your concern coming from readings you see on a meter?

P.S. BTW, it appears you may have an additional 'quote' HTML tag in your post which is changing the attribution.

 

[mwalsh]

Must say that I agree with this sentiment entirely. I figured the pack would be good for around 5 years before I started having to jump through hoops to make sure the car continued to meet my needs. The first 15 months it looked like this was almost certainly going to be the case. The last 2 months...not so much. Now instead of range anxiety, I have the beginnings of pack anxiety! :shock:

Are you noticing any actual changes in your available range, or is your concern coming from readings you see on a meter?

P.S. BTW, it appears you may have an additional 'quote' HTML tag in your post which is changing the attribution.

Corrected my post. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm not actually seeing any massively noticeable change in the available range via the Gidometer. In fact, my mid-way (work) and final destination (home) numbers are much as they always were. I am seeing some very marginal loss of range in the GOM capacity bars - about a half-mile per (getting 6 miles even @ 65mph as compared to roughly 6.5 miles historically). And as I said in another post somewhere, unless it's my imagination I'm seeing serious changes in my consumption while city driving - it has always been roughly double that of highway driving for me, now it appears to be three times worse.

I guess I'm troubled the most by the negligible apparent losses over the long haul compared to the more significant loss in recent weeks, and am somewhat worried about the latter trend continuing. Now, if my pack settles down again fairly soon, and I see another 18 months before another little episode like this...then not so much.

 

[RegGuheert]

I'm not actually seeing any massively noticeable change in the available range via the Gidometer.

It's good that you are not seeing a big change on the meter!

I'm seeing serious changes in my consumption while city driving - it has always been roughly double that of highway driving for me, now it appears to be three times worse.

Are you lead-footed? Perhaps you feel compelled to make a statement at each stoplight that EVs don't have to be dogs?

I guess I'm troubled the most by the negligible apparent losses over the long haul compared to the more significant loss in recent weeks, and am somewhat worried about the latter trend continuing.

If you look at the plot TIckTock provided in the other thread, it sure appears there is a seasonal component. But in his case, there seem to be three factors playing: A low starting point, some seasonal variations and an ongoing drop over time. We will all see seasonality, but others have report INCREASED capacity in hot weather. Perhaps there is a difference between 'hot' and 'HOT'!

 

[mwalsh]

Perhaps you feel compelled to make a statement at each stoplight that EVs don't have to be dogs?

Maybe in the past I've been unconcerned. But the last week I've been driving like a Grandma, and paying special close attention to what the Gidometer reads. I got off the highway last night with just a couple of miles to go and 32.5 SOC showing on the Gidometer. I got home with 27 remaining. So that's 5.5(%) to drive 2 miles.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I got home with 27 remaining. So that's 5.5(%) to drive 2 miles.

Small sample, particularly this small, are really not representative of your batteries actual performance. What the Gid reading is at an 80% or even 100% are much better.

 

[mwalsh]

Small sample, particularly this small, are really not representative of your batteries actual performance. What the Gid reading is at an 80% or even 100% are much better.

Have you not been keeping up, Tony? I'm getting those too.

 

[surfingslovak]

I guess I'm troubled the most by the negligible apparent losses over the long haul compared to the more significant loss in recent weeks, and am somewhat worried about the latter trend continuing.

If you look at the plot TIckTock provided in the other thread, it sure appears there is a seasonal component. But in his case, there seem to be three factors playing: A low starting point, some seasonal variations and an ongoing drop over time. We will all see seasonality, but others have report INCREASED capacity in hot weather. Perhaps there is a difference between 'hot' and 'HOT'!

Here is the plot again. Yes, we observed some correlation between a Gid readout and ambient temperature a while ago. This could be a contributing factor to the behavior TickTock reported earlier. We don't have enough data to be sure though. It would certainly help to have two years instead of one on the books.

Given that most cars I looked at, including mine, are very close to nominal capacity, I suspect that one or two modules must be 'going' in the affected vehicles. It's been anticipated that module replacements will become necessary at some point, but I didn't think that it would be this soon. There is still the possibility of a manufacturing anomaly, and some of these modules might have been problematic from the start.

Small sample, particularly this small, are really not representative of your batteries actual performance. What the Gid reading is at an 80% or even 100% are much better.

Tony, out of curiosity, what Gid count do you see on a full charge these days? I will get a fresh readout for my car this weekend.

 

[ERG4ALL]

I've had our LEAF almost 15 months and have over 13,000 miles on it. It has been in fairly temperate temperatures during that time. I still have all 12 bars showing on the battery capacity indicator. When I did get the 1 year check up, everything was fine except that the "topping off" indicator was one grade lower than the other indicators. The dealership said that was okay and not to worry.

With further conversations with tech support I got a definition of "topping off". It is only when the vehicle is charged to 100%. The amount of times that you partially charge up to 80% does not count. What's more the degradation that the indicator keeps track of is HOW LONG the battery stays at 100%. I was used to charging the vehicle overnight to 100% when I planned longer trips the next day. It is better, according to the tech, to charge up to 100% just before you are going to use the vehicle.

This started me thinking how it would be nice to have all of those that are showing a loss of capacity to delineate a whole variety of items regarding how they charge and how they drive the vehicle. For example, I know that there was one other indicator that had to do with the amount of times the car was "floored" as that can affect battery life apparently.

I'd really appreciate hearing more details from those that have experienced a loss in battery capacity.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Small sample, particularly this small, are really not representative of your batteries actual performance. What the Gid reading is at an 80% or even 100% are much better.

Have you not been keeping up, Tony? I'm getting those too.

Well, I guess I didn't see that data from you (Gid count at 100% and 80% charge). I saw some GOM stuff, and frankly, I don't give that information any weight.

 

[RegGuheert]

I've had our LEAF almost 15 months and have over 13,000 miles on it. It has been in fairly temperate temperatures during that time. I still have all 12 bars showing on the battery capacity indicator. When I did get the 1 year check up, everything was fine except that the "topping off" indicator was one grade lower than the other indicators. The dealership said that was okay and not to worry.

Thanks for the update! It 's good that you still have all your bars. That means your car thinks it still has at least 86% of the original battery capacity.

With further conversations with tech support I got a definition of "topping off". It is only when the vehicle is charged to 100%. The amount of times that you partially charge up to 80% does not count. What's more the degradation that the indicator keeps track of is HOW LONG the battery stays at 100%. I was used to charging the vehicle overnight to 100% when I planned longer trips the next day. It is better, according to the tech, to charge up to 100% just before you are going to use the vehicle.

This started me thinking how it would be nice to have all of those that are showing a loss of capacity to delineate a whole variety of items regarding how they charge and how they drive the vehicle. For example, I know that there was one other indicator that had to do with the amount of times the car was "floored" as that can affect battery life apparently.

Here is the thread that contains those details: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11. To summarize, a couple of those who lost a bar were "toppers" and at least one of the toppers said he also had a lead foot. Notably, however, was one poster who lost a bar who drives very conservatively, almost never charges to 100% and rarely parks his car in the sun during the day.

 

[TickTock]

Until recently, I didn't know about the just setting the END timer trick so I was starting my charge at midnight and it was sitting fully charged for a couple of hours each morning. I also, until recently, usually charged to 80% - only going to 100% if I knew I had an extra errand. Recently, however, I spent a few weeks charging to 100% on the recommendation of two different Nissan employees to see if that helped the car recover some of the lost capacity. It didn't. I'm going back to 80%.