How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[GaslessInSeattle]

don't we want to avoid low SOC too? from what I've read, the battery is most stable around 50% SOC (5 bars, taking into consideration the hidden bar). I'm thinking it would be better if you need a total of 6 bars for your round trip commute to start at 8 and end at 2 (which is actually 3 because of the hidden bar), charge up to 5 that evening and then up to 8 using an end timer just prior to leaving in the AM. it might be splitting hairs but IMHO, it's worth avoiding both high and low SOC, especially in high heat and generally aiming for 50% for the idle periods.

We've stopped using the timer and just plug in a few hours here and there, cycling around the 50% mark except for the times we need a full charge.

Any suggestions how to lower the loss, temp in low 90 now(which is not different than PHX today)?

Just follow the same recommendations as have been made for Leafers in Arizona. Better yet, if you haven't bought one yet, opt for a car with a TMS.

I would keep a low SOC during the hottest portion of the day. If 3 or 4 bars can get you home, then aim to arrive with that SOC at work. Preconditioning will help a bit as well. This means that if you had an airconditioned garage or a cooler parking spot at work, this will benefit you, and help carry the car through the hottest portion of the day. The core chassis temperature won't rise as quickly as the interior of the car.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Thank you for your input.
I usually use 3 bars to and 4 bars back so I guess I should have 8 - 9 bars to start with. Can charge at work but than car will be in full sun so I think better to keep with 5 bars in the shade. One think that I would like your opinion is if I arrive home with 3 bars should I charge to 5 in the evening (still hot) or charge to 9 in the morning

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I wish I could say. at some point it's splitting hairs, and we really don't know where that line is. it may turn out that heat is the issue at any SOC. It's hard to imagine that charging just a few bars would be an issue even if it's hot. I feel pretty confident that around 50% is where you want it to be when clocking the long hours of sitting (parked for the day as well as overnight). That said if you just turned to 3 bars, remembering it's more like 4 actual and that is pretty darn close to 5, IMHO, probably fine for overnight. I'd say do what you can without going nuts.

I picture the SOC the way it shows up on my carwings iphone ap but instead of having red at one end fading to yellow and then green at the other end I imagine two red bars at either end, a two bars of yellow to either side of the middle four, which I think of as the true green or sweet zone. My aim isn't avoiding high or low SOC, it's not leaving the car in that state for the bulk of day/night hours. It's the best I've come up with given how little we have to go on for now, we may laugh at ourselves for all this fretting later.

Thank you for your input.
I usually use 3 bars to and 4 bars back so I guess I should have 8 - 9 bars to start with. Can charge at work but than car will be in full sun so I think better to keep with 5 bars in the shade. One think that I would like your opinion is if I arrive home with 3 bars should I charge to 5 in the evening (still hot) or charge to 9 in the morning

 

[surfingslovak]

Thank you for your input.
I usually use 3 bars to and 4 bars back so I guess I should have 8 - 9 bars to start with. Can charge at work but than car will be in full sun so I think better to keep with 5 bars in the shade. One think that I would like your opinion is if I arrive home with 3 bars should I charge to 5 in the evening (still hot) or charge to 9 in the morning

Richard, if you arrive with 3 bars at home, I would leave it that way and only charge at night. Assuming that you get cheaper electricity and the battery has cooled by the wee hours, you should be OK. Having the battery sit at 5 bars in the shade during the day is very good. The only thing you could consider in the future is lowering the temperature in your garage during summer months.

 

[surfingslovak]

don't we want to avoid low SOC too? from what I've read, the battery is most stable around 50% SOC (5 bars, taking into consideration the hidden bar). I'm thinking it would be better if you need a total of 6 bars for your round trip commute to start at 8 and end at 2 (which is actually 3 because of the hidden bar), charge up to 5 that evening and then up to 8 using an end timer just prior to leaving in the AM. it might be splitting hairs but IMHO, it's worth avoiding both high and low SOC, especially in high heat and generally aiming for 50% for the idle periods.

We've stopped using the timer and just plug in a few hours here and there, cycling around the 50% mark except for the times we need a full charge.

George, yes, you are absolutely correct, and this is my understanding as well. Perhaps I should have said "5 bars" in my previous post, but it's what it is. I believe that keeping a lower overall pack voltage on hot days will help. This should lessen the effects of the degradation process. I believe that at higher state of charge, manganese dissolution in electrolyte is the main contributing factor. At low state of charge, it's the Jahn-Teller effect, which affects the spinel structure of the cathode. It's about finding a balance between the two. Although it's just a guess, I would prefer an SOC a few notches below 50% if it was really hot out. I don't think that you guys in Seattle need to worry about this too much though.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

4 mo ago I asked same question @ official nissan leaf blog and I am still waiting for answer in fact I suggested that 50% probably the best for the battery. As of garage I can open door as well window on opposite side, garage is fully insulated as well have fan and unfortunately separate furnace. If will be very bad I can put window AC unit. Good and bad part about OK is wind never stop which will be/is + for a car battery I may also park outside at night.
Just to make sure 5 bars is THE sweet spot(confusing hidden bars)?
George soon you will get GID measurements from DFW people so we will see how it goes around here.

 

[TRONZ]

The OP seems like a huge over reaction. Nissan is getting good data from everyone. Just because they are not running around screaming with their hair on fire over outliers does not mean they are neglecting anyone or planning to screw everyone over. I am very certain that Nissan will take a position when there is actually a position to take. I would also hope this position is based on technical data from engineeing and not PR sloganeering from marketing. Being a Japanese company, I am certain Nissan will take the engineering approach and done right, this takes time.

 

[RegGuheert]

The OP seems like a huge over reaction. Nissan is getting good data from everyone. Just because they are not running around screaming with their hair on fire over outliers does not mean they are neglecting anyone or planning to screw everyone over. I am very certain that Nissan will take a position when there is actually a position to take. I would also hope this position is based on technical data from engineeing and not PR sloganeering from marketing. Being a Japanese company, I am certain Nissan will take the engineering approach and done right, this takes time.

I still think Nissan's best move right now is to stop selling in Phoenix and move to leases only. This would immediately put them on the high road. Call it sloganeering if you like, but if they don't control the discussions of this topic, the media will. Toyota lost a lot of business and wasted a lot of money a few years ago over the so-called gas-pedal issue which was, IMO, a complete non-issue. They chose to address a public relations problem with an engineering solution and it cost them dearly.

I'm more convinced now than when I started this thread that we are not talking about outliers here, other than the fact that Phoenix is an outlier. That's why the post is focused on Phoenix.

The only reason I can think of that Nissan should NOT take this action would be if they feel the missing bars are largely due to an instrumentation issue and do not correspond to capacity loss near 15%/year.

 

[shrink]

I still think Nissan's best move right now is to stop selling in Phoenix and move to leases only. This would immediately put them on the high road. Call it sloganeering if you like, but if they don't control the discussions of this topic, the media will.

I think you're well intentioned, but I also think your idea is awful. Nissan or any reasonable business for that matter does not make major business decisions based on message board postings. Period.

I believe they have more trust in their engineers whose years of research and testing led them to believe Phoenix was a viable launch market.

Your idea would send a message of no confidence in the car and that would be disastrous.

The best we can do at this point is provide Nissan the data and let them study it. There may be a time, and hopefully not, when there is need for consumer action, but if there's an issue Nissan would hopefully do something for affected early adopters. They will act on their data and research, not a handful of message board posts.

And I'm a Phoenix LEAF owner whose scan gauge reading this AM was suggestive of some capacity loss after 9 months. I also drove 81 miles in the LEAF today (with a QC and 1-hour of L2 help).

 

[thankyouOB]

The OP seems like a huge over reaction. Nissan is getting good data from everyone. Just because they are not running around screaming with their hair on fire over outliers does not mean they are neglecting anyone or planning to screw everyone over. I am very certain that Nissan will take a position when there is actually a position to take. I would also hope this position is based on technical data from engineeing and not PR sloganeering from marketing. Being a Japanese company, I am certain Nissan will take the engineering approach and done right, this takes time.

i agree with all of what you say, almost.
i do have confidence they will do the right thing and there is no reason to go the sky-is-falling over a few problems. we all seem to be prudent and want to mother the batteries.

But your:
Being a Japanese company, I am certain Nissan will take the engineering approach and done right, this takes time.
Makes me go, all whoaaaa. I think of Fukishima.

 

[RegGuheert]

I think you're well intentioned, but I also think your idea is awful. Nissan or any reasonable business for that matter does not make major business decisions based on message board postings. Period.

Who said anything about message board postings?

I think we all agree that there is an technical issue here. That needs to be addressed and I'm sure Nissan has great people to do the work. But here's the thing about engineering issues: they take time to address. It will take as long as it takes to work this out.

But to deny there is a potentially HUGE public relations issue here is not realistic, IMO. And if this public relations issue happens, then it will play out on its own schedule which will not be closely related to what Nissan's engineering team does. Again, it would be a huge mistake for Nissan to treat this as only a technical problem.

Finally, I do not rule out the possibility that Nissan knew exactly what would happen in Phoenix and decided to market the car as they did in spite of this knowledge. If that is what really happened, then I would say that this really isn't even a technical issue to start with, but rather a marketing problem. Is that what happened? I certainly don't know. I would like to think this is not what Nissan did.

 

[TickTock]

Finally, I do not rule out the possibility that Nissan knew exactly what would happen in Phoenix and decided to market the car as they did in spite of this knowledge. If that is what really happened, then I would say that this really isn't even a technical issue to start with, but rather a marketing problem. Is that what happened? I certainly don't know. I would like to think this is not what Nissan did.

Unlikely. Nissan had no qualms pissing off most of the other states making them wait for the roll-out so if they really believed Arizona would be a problem they would have put it at the bottom of the list - not the top.

 

[RegGuheert]

Unlikely. Nissan had no qualms pissing off most of the other states making them wait for the roll-out so if they really believed Arizona would be a problem they would have put it at the bottom of the list - not the top.

My thinking, exactly!

I will add that I think building the LEAF without a TMS for the battery was a brilliant move on Nissan's part. They managed to save a large amount of cost by doing this which makes it possible to address a much larger market. But such a strategy carries risks and this is the obvious one. In the end, it may be that the LEAF does not offer the lowest life-cycle costs in Phoenix when compared to other EVs. But it is too early to tell at this point.

 

[cwerdna]

I will add that I think building the LEAF without a TMS for the battery was a brilliant move on Nissan's part. They managed to save a large amount of cost by doing this which makes it possible to address a much larger market. But such a strategy carries risks and this is the obvious one.

I'm sure this was discussed here on MNL before I joined, my thoughts for a LONG time (way before these capacity loss revelations) have been they probably under-engineered battery thermal management because they expected the batteries to be leased only. All along, Nissan and Ghosn kept talking publicly about how you'll only be able to lease the battery, not buy it as part of the car.

An EV enthusiast on Priuschatter claimed that Nissan eventually had back down on that because it's illegal in the US to require someone to a lease a part of a car that's required for its operation. By the time Nissan abandoned/decided not to do the battery leasing business, I'm sure design was done and final looking prototypes were running around. It would've been too late to add a TMS w/o delaying the car substantially.

Hope someone can chime in about the legality assertion...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Since you're not a 'tech', I find it strange how you can dismiss his readings. You need to stick to what you know instead of dismissing things that you obviously don't have the knowledge or facts.

I'm not sure I've ever discussed my resume with you. The "facts" I do have neither suggest a 28.8 battery the you defended when challenged, nor a 23.6 battery with a 17.x capacity. It all signals my BS meter. For the record, many moons ago, I was a "tech" specializing in inertial navigation.

I'll move the swanky comments about range chart to the appropriate thread.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=200621#p200621" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

they expected the batteries to be leased only. All along, Nissan and Ghosn kept talking publicly about how you'll only be able to lease the battery, not buy it as part of the car.

They also expected 90% to be leased. Only 10% were in USA.

 

[mark13]

Thanks Reg for starting this thread..I now find it very interesting because my car just lost its 12th charge bar and I live in AZ..
I must say i wish I would of leased the Leaf now and not bought it,it may be a hard sell to try to get someone to buy the car once I lose a 2nd bar..
As the years go by its going to be interesting to find out if they can rebuild the batteries back to 100% and what the cost will be..

 

[cwerdna]

Ugh. And their diesels are only green (blue) washing.

Yep. There's virtually nothing "green" about so-called "clean diesels" esp. when compared with efficient AT-PZEV or PZEV ICEVs.

HXGuy should also look at http://green.autoblog.com/2012/03/27/mercedes-benz-diesel-emissions-fluid-can-cost-up-to-32-a-gallon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/a-lower-cost-filling-solution-for-the-mercedes-benz-ml350-bluetec/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; re: additional costs, besides the higher price of diesel.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

That is sad news, unfortunately we do not know so many things. If I am correct figure for new module (after some Nissan guy in GB) is in the range of $500 but there are 48 of them. I wish Nissan communicate with us to provide guidance and assurance.

Thanks Reg for starting this thread..I now find it very interesting because my car just lost its 12th charge bar and I live in AZ..
I must say i wish I would of leased the Leaf now and not bought it,it may be a hard sell to try to get someone to buy the car once I lose a 2nd bar..
As the years go by its going to be interesting to find out if they can rebuild the batteries back to 100% and what the cost will be..

 

[RegGuheert]

Thanks Reg for starting this thread..I now find it very interesting because my car just lost its 12th charge bar and I live in AZ..
I must say i wish I would of leased the Leaf now and not bought it,it may be a hard sell to try to get someone to buy the car once I lose a 2nd bar..
As the years go by its going to be interesting to find out if they can rebuild the batteries back to 100% and what the cost will be..

I'm sorry you have lost a bar, Mark. By my count, you are the seventh report we have here in the past month.

That said, I will ask you and others who have lost a bar to please post that information in the Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11 thread over on the Problems/Trouble Shooting forum. There is an effort to compile data on who has lost a bar, driving habits, charging habits, etc., going on that I do not want to derail. That is why I posted a separate thread here to discuss Nissan's response.

It does sound as if you may have benefited if Nissan had only permitted you to lease.