Industry considering Tesla's free charging model now?

[cwerdna]

^^^
Yep, I don't know how many of the Model S (or other EVs) that park at the water district office are "abusers". At my work where charging is free, sometimes I have do some cable shuffling, I've had have to start/restart charging sessions (we have to use a Chargepoint card that's been added into a private group for my work). I did start a charging session on a Model S (of unknown capacity) after I plugged it in. It pulled down over 23 kwh of juice.

I have no idea how long that person's commute was, what their charge setting was and how much they actually needed the charge.

For me, I just charge to 100% @ work since I'm leasing. I could theoretically be fine w/only 120 volt charging at home, but I only do that on weekends. We have no policy about what's abuse re: charging or whatever...

For business who want to give some "free" charging and avoid abuse, they could have EVSEs w/a keypad for a code (water district office has some of these) and could give out a code to those who ask for a free charge lasting x minutes/hours, sorta like how some gas stations give you a car wash code (that you purchase) or some coffee houses give you a code for wi-fi that's good for only x hours that day.

http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/7989" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some pics of the setup at the aforementioned water district office.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

anything can add up over time but guessing the "bump" in the Water District's monthly electrical bill was hardly noticable

 

[smkettner]

While camping on a free spot will happen I have doubts many consistently have the time to burn on L2.
"customer use only" sign would probably be enough to evict a persistent freeloader.
Of course if you already camp at starbucks for free wifi you may as well be charging.
I think free is workable if they put the EVSEs in the lesser used parking spots with no restriction.

 

[evnow]

Yes, "free everywhere" won't work. There will be premium parking places - where they should charge.

The basic idea is - don't think charging network can be a business in its own right. There just isn't enough money in that. It has to be a corollary service to bring in people. If you can't make money of your extra customers, then putting up chargers probably isn't for you.

 

[evnow]

^^^
2 sodas = $4 in profit? At least at fast food and fast casual restaurants, they don't charge $2 for a small or medium. McD around here charges $1 for all sizes.

Then, may be they should charge for electricity/evse time. BTW, McDonald and others will definitely sell more than just a pop. If they truly won't make $4 of a couple of customers, then, may be they should re-examine their business

When we go to a coffee place, I'm sure they are making more than $4 from two of us. When we go to a restaurant they are probably making about $20.

 

[RegGuheert]

Of course if you already camp at starbucks for free wifi you may as well be charging.

I realize from your smiley that this is a joke, but I will state that I don't think the two are comparable. WiFi is both cheap and ubiquitous these days. The incremental cost to Starbucks of someone joining their free WiFi is very low and most people have many other options for getting on the internet, so there is much less incentive to "freeload". EV charging neither cheap nor ubiquitous, so the whole issue of how it gets paid will need to be addressed over time. Unfortunately, the cost of charging an EV, whether at home or in public will likely steadily rise over time. PV solar and other renewables are really the only things out there to mitigate this effect.

 

[jhm614]

I realize from your smiley that this is a joke, but I will state that I don't think the two are comparable. WiFi is both cheap and ubiquitous these days. The incremental cost to Starbucks of someone joining their free WiFi is very low and most people have many other options for getting on the internet, so there is much less incentive to "freeload". EV charging neither cheap nor ubiquitous, so the whole issue of how it gets paid will need to be addressed over time. Unfortunately, the cost of charging an EV, whether at home or in public will likely steadily rise over time. PV solar and other renewables are really the only things out there to mitigate this effect.

But Starbucks is paying AT&T something for the bandwidth -- and it's business class bill, not a $50 per month per store. And those routers they put in aren't the $59 linksys jobbies either. (Unsure if they will be paying Google for bandwidth, but they probably will be.) And you could argue that it was places like Starbucks that made WiFi become cheap and ubiquitous and that public charging needs the same 'jump start.'

I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here, I actually think longer EV range and at-home charging is the best answer. But if battery tech doesn't advance much over the next 2 or 3 year, public charging will play a large role in continued / growing EV acceptance.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I actually think longer EV range and at-home charging is the best answer.

Even if all oil burning cars could fuel up at home (I actually grew up in a place with that option), and all oil burning cars had 400 mile range, the bad news for your "best answer" is that there were still times that we had to buy oil at public dispensers.

Longer range batteries, at home charging (for those with that option), AND a robust public recharging is what the mass public needs and expects.

It's also what they're going to get.

 

[RegGuheert]

Longer range batteries, at home charging (for those with that option), AND a robust public recharging is what the mass public needs and expects.

Agreed. But with EV charging there is a major paradigm shift from today's status quo. Namely, most EV refueling is done at home while nearly all gasoline refueling is done away from home. Add PV solar into the mix and you have consumers with some level of choice and control over their refueling costs. With an EV, I can also choose a battery size which allows me to avoid nearly all public refueling stops. The choice of public versus private charging ultimately pits battery manufacturers against public charging providers when it comes to how we spend our vehicle dollars. Unfortunately for those trying to build charging networks, this dynamic will put downward pricing pressure on refueling from public charging stations.

 

[smkettner]

Of course if you already camp at starbucks for free wifi you may as well be charging.

I realize from your smiley that this is a joke, but I will state that I don't think the two are comparable. WiFi is both cheap and ubiquitous these days. The incremental cost to Starbucks of someone joining their free WiFi is very low and most people have many other options for getting on the internet, so there is much less incentive to "freeload". EV charging neither cheap nor ubiquitous, so the whole issue of how it gets paid will need to be addressed over time. Unfortunately, the cost of charging an EV, whether at home or in public will likely steadily rise over time. PV solar and other renewables are really the only things out there to mitigate this effect.

My thought was more on someone camped two+ hours at Starbucks occupying a table with minimum purchase to play games and facebook vs allowing another customer a seat. The comparison is of taking up space not really the cost. Although I doubt Starbucks would notice the electric bill.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the longer the range of EVs become, the greater the need for public charging. gas cars in the early days could not advance beyond the horizon so were just as limited as EVs are today.

the biggest hurdle is not tech or range or the cost of electricity or the cost to install a charging infrastructure or the cost of the batteries. the biggest hurdle is the technology that EVs replace, pure and simple.

 

[RegGuheert]

the longer the range of EVs become, the greater the need for public charging.

In that case, however, the need is identical to what Tesla is installing: interstate charging, just as the thread title suggests. There will be much less need for local public charging infrastructure. Also as range increases, the amount of "fuel" delivered to EV's by public chargers per vehicle will likely never exceed 5% of what is delivered to ICEs today. This is because the cars are more efficient and charging will mostly be done at home. All this might lead me to conclude that there will not be much public charging infrastructure, my guess is that there might actually be more simply because of the ease and safety of installation compared to gasoline pumps. Of course, this will further erode the earning potential of public charging stations.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

the longer the range of EVs become, the greater the need for public charging. ...

yet another naturally intuitive conclusion I had that has turned out to be wrong. In the first 5K miles in the Tesla S not only did I not use public charging more, I didn't need to charge even once.

per the OP, free may be the only one left standing soon: http://www.longtailpipe.com/2013/08...gU.mjjo&goback=.gde_885227_member_266718361#!

 

[TonyWilliams]

This is because the cars are more efficient and charging will mostly be done at home.

All these types of statements are centered on who buys EVs today... relatively wealthy, older white men who own a house. Unfortunately, in larger cities, 30-50% live in apartments, and many of those don't have electrical power where a car is parked.

http://www.nmhc.org/Content.cfm?ItemNumber=55508" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Large Cities: Population, Housing, and Renters

City Names - Population - Total Occupied Units - Total Apartments - Apartments Percent Of All Housing
New York, NY --- 8,244,910 - 3,023,330 - 1,514,341 - 50%
Los Angeles, CA - 3,819,708 - 1,304,145 - 545,250 - 42%
Chicago, IL ----- 2,707,123 - 1,016,342 - 288,115 - 28%
Houston, TX -----2,145,933 - 774,630 - 292,875 - 38%
Philadelphia, PA - 1,536,471 - 576,429 - 89,510 - 16%
Phoenix, AZ ----- 1,469,484 - 519,369- 109,413 - 21%
San Antonio, TX --1,359,730 - 482,783 -114,840 - 24%
San Diego, CA ----1,326,183 - 468,194 - 135,928 - 29%
Dallas, TX ------- 1,223,378 - 455,371 - 176,882 - 39%
San Jose, CA ------- 967,478 - 305,460 - 68,190 - 22%
Jacksonville, FL ----- 827,909 - 311,369 - 60,646 - 19%
Indianapolis, IN ----- 824,232 - 324,438 - 66,434 - 20%
Austin, TX ---------- 820,601 - 331,582 - 125,401 - 38%
San Francisco, CA ---- 812,826 - 342,706 - 130,869 - 38%
Columbus, OH ------- 796,014 - 322,314 - 88,469 - 27%
Fort Worth, TX ------- 760,758 - 263,676 - 55,177 - 21%
Charlotte, NC -------- 751,074 - 292,715 - 69,808 - 24%
Detroit, MI ----------- 706,640 - 253,629 - 37,409 - 15%
El Paso, TX ----------- 665,577 - 219,568 - 37,451 - 17%
Memphis, TN --------- 652,078 - 245,836 - 53,958 - 22%
Boston, MA ---------- 624,969 - 251,745 - 88,669 - 35%
Seattle, WA ---------- 620,778 - 282,492 - 99,602 - 35%
Denver, CO ---------- 619,968 - 266,624 - 86,859 - 33%
Baltimore, MD ------- 619,493 - 239,251 - 51,505 - 22%
Washington, DC ----- 617,996 - 268,670 - 111,192 - 41%

Source: NMHC tabulations of 2011 American Community Survey, 1-Year Estimates. Updated October 2012.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

This is because the cars are more efficient and charging will mostly be done at home.

All these types of statements are centered on who buys EVs today... relatively wealthy, older white men who own a house. Unfortunately, in larger cities, 30-50% live in apartments, and many of those don't have electrical power where a car is parked.

http://www.nmhc.org/Content.cfm?ItemNumber=55508" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Large Cities: Population, Housing, and Renters

City Names - Population - Total Occupied Units - Total Apartments - Apartments Percent Of All Housing
New York, NY --- 8,244,910 - 3,023,330 - 1,514,341 - 50%
Los Angeles, CA - 3,819,708 - 1,304,145 - 545,250 - 42%
Chicago, IL ----- 2,707,123 - 1,016,342 - 288,115 - 28%
Houston, TX -----2,145,933 - 774,630 - 292,875 - 38%
Philadelphia, PA - 1,536,471 - 576,429 - 89,510 - 16%
Phoenix, AZ ----- 1,469,484 - 519,369- 109,413 - 21%
San Antonio, TX --1,359,730 - 482,783 -114,840 - 24%
San Diego, CA ----1,326,183 - 468,194 - 135,928 - 29%
Dallas, TX ------- 1,223,378 - 455,371 - 176,882 - 39%
San Jose, CA ------- 967,478 - 305,460 - 68,190 - 22%
Jacksonville, FL ----- 827,909 - 311,369 - 60,646 - 19%
Indianapolis, IN ----- 824,232 - 324,438 - 66,434 - 20%
Austin, TX ---------- 820,601 - 331,582 - 125,401 - 38%
San Francisco, CA ---- 812,826 - 342,706 - 130,869 - 38%
Columbus, OH ------- 796,014 - 322,314 - 88,469 - 27%
Fort Worth, TX ------- 760,758 - 263,676 - 55,177 - 21%
Charlotte, NC -------- 751,074 - 292,715 - 69,808 - 24%
Detroit, MI ----------- 706,640 - 253,629 - 37,409 - 15%
El Paso, TX ----------- 665,577 - 219,568 - 37,451 - 17%
Memphis, TN --------- 652,078 - 245,836 - 53,958 - 22%
Boston, MA ---------- 624,969 - 251,745 - 88,669 - 35%
Seattle, WA ---------- 620,778 - 282,492 - 99,602 - 35%
Denver, CO ---------- 619,968 - 266,624 - 86,859 - 33%
Baltimore, MD ------- 619,493 - 239,251 - 51,505 - 22%
Washington, DC ----- 617,996 - 268,670 - 111,192 - 41%

Source: NMHC tabulations of 2011 American Community Survey, 1-Year Estimates. Updated October 2012.

For those folks, I see the workplace as the prime place to charge, where the car sits for 8+ hours a day. On the go charging is just not practical even at Super Charging speed for day to day. In either case, these folks will not likely comprise a large part of the EV market initially, until the battery is so large that it is less of an issue. it will be interesting to see how it unfolds, I'm used to being surprised by hindsight with this technology, so who knows.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Unfortunately for those trying to build charging networks, this dynamic will put downward pricing pressure on refueling from public charging stations.

The pressure right now is "free". Unless folks want to get PAID to recharge, you can't go much lower!!!

When gasoline is $10 gal, I think the price of public charging will look pretty good for all those MILLIONS of people who can't afford two cars so that they can Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM) or the EV, like wealthy, older, white, home owner males can do.

 

[TonyWilliams]

For those folks, I see the workplace as the prime place to charge, where the car sits for 8+ hours a day. On the go charging is just not practical even at Super Charging speed for day to day. In either case, these folks will not likely comprise a large part of the EV market initially, until the battery is so large that it is less of an issue. it will be interesting to see how it unfolds, I'm used to being surprised by hindsight with this technology, so who knows.

So, without a job, like millions are, then what? Plus, let's face it, many workplaces will NOT allow charging. The federal government / military is one HUGE example.

When you're broke, and can't afford gasoline and you're living in an apartment like many, many millions do, then sitting at a Quick Charger every day or three isn't that big of a deal.

 

[surfingslovak]

The pressure right now is "free". Unless folks want to get PAID to recharge, you can't go much lower!!!

They might get paid for charging, if the fantasy of vehicle-to-grid ever becomes reality. This would need a larger number of EVs connected to the grid than we have today and grid operators willing to play ball. Several industry players are seriously looking into it, including ChargePoint. The largest number of patents and research was apparently done by, gasp, Better Place. We are still at the very beginning of this process, but my personal hunch is that public charging, and by extension also workplace charging, is here to stay. I think the chief challenge will be how to make and keep it economically viable. Unfortunately, not every company involved in this field is putting in an honest effort.

 

[hill]

Having been exploring many options in this public charging thing, anything free really isn't free. Somebody will pay, and somebody will use and abuse. ...........snip.........

Yea . . . the gal with the Volt charge/camping at Mitsubishi ... riding her bike home/leaving her car there so she can leach off Mitsu's juice comes to mind as a sickening example. One of the electricians here @ disney is her neighbor. He's got some great stories of how bad a neighbor can be. Go figure. One day at Mitsu I had an encounter w/ her. She told me she does this because there's no place to charge at home ... an outright lie. This is the nature of public charging . . . an oportunity for the worst behavior to manifest itself - which is a steriotype/smear on the rest of us.
.

 

[smkettner]

Free works better with more range. The free stations can be positioned between major population areas.
And yes if you happen to reside in a small town where superchargers are located and can afford a Tesla you could really take advantage.
Free will not work with LEAF as you need chargers every ten miles both in the city and out on the road.
Free with purchase might work with certain limits such as two hour max parking.

As far as apartments... I only manage a hand full but as an advocate I would set them up as requested.