Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24 KWh

[evnow]

Charging to 80% required 4:00 even. That means that I added at most 13.2KWh to the pack to get back to 80% charge.

Can't go by the time - the charging rate varies. Also, Leaf doesn't use exactly 3.3 KW (it is more).

You need a TED, Blink or kill-a-watt (with L1 charging) to figure out the real kwh. And then you have to account for charging losses.

 

[evnow]

And regarding the older FOIA thread: Even you got ~24kWh with two different sets of data "wall to wheels" - which would thus include charger losses.
...
In favor of a 24kWh battery pack:
-EPA test data and filing paperwork

Not at all. How can wall to wheels be about 24kwh and the capacity be that much as well ? EPA numbers clearly show less than 24 kwh capacity - infact that was the first thing that came to my mind when I looked at FOIA data.

Leaf doesn't slow down before getting to turtle - from all the reports we have seen (both owners and media). Infact I'd say at turtle Leaf has no more than 1/2kwh - Edmunds got 2 miles on turtle in their controlled test.

As for Nissan, they have always said the total capacity of the battery is 24 kwh with Leaf using a very high % of that (the % varies from media to media). Mark Perry told me Leaf has a 24 kwh total capacity battery, he wouldn't tell me how much of it is useable. Infact saying Leaf has 24 kwh usable goes against what Nissan has been saying.

Also, you say some owner's reports suggest 24 kwh usable. I've not seen them - any links ?

I'd say,

In favor of a 24kWh battery pack:
-m/kwh on dash may be high

In favor of <24kWh:
-EPA test data and filing paperwork
-Nissan's claims
-Some owner's reports

 

[awolfe63]

Boy, there seems to be a strange attitude on this thread...

I never even hinted that I thought I had proved anything, "beyond a shadow of a doubt," I said that I had some more data then I explained how it was similar to my previous data. All along I have indicated that I was suspicious and that I was looking to have Nissan review the charging logs from my car.

The charger is supposed to be limited to 3.3KW - that is where I got my 13.2KWH number for 4 hours of charge. This is Nissan's spec. I haven't seen any reliable source that states that the charger can exceed 3.3KW, no matter what comes in at the wall.

Clearly something is not adding up. The car's usage reporting could be off. The car could be misreporting "full" and/or "empty". The battery capacity and/or the charge rate may not be what Nissan has publicized. My battery may be out of spec. I'm just trying to figure out which of these problems are happening, both for my benefit and to let others know.

There is no conspiracy here to "dis" the Leaf.

In any case, Nissan regional techs have the car today and are reviewing the data.

 

[evnow]

In any case, Nissan regional techs have the car today and are reviewing the data.

I was just saying the # of hours you charge only gives a rough figure and we can't figure out the answer to the question in this thread using that data.

Anyway, it is good you have asked Nissan to resolve this. Let us know how it goes ...

 

[planet4ever]

I never even hinted that I thought I had proved anything, "beyond a shadow of a doubt," I said that I had some more data then I explained how it was similar to my previous data. All along I have indicated that I was suspicious and that I was looking to have Nissan review the charging logs from my car.

The charger is supposed to be limited to 3.3KW - that is where I got my 13.2KWH number for 4 hours of charge. This is Nissan's spec. I haven't seen any reliable source that states that the charger can exceed 3.3KW, no matter what comes in at the wall.

Sorry, I guess I got carried away. As to the 3.3kW rating, I think that is just nominal, and probably relates to its approximate output, rather than its input. But of course output (i.e. battery input) is what your calculations were based on, so that is a reasonable number to use. We do have reports in other threads here that input to the charger can be a full 16 amps or a bit more.

Ray

 

[Ingineer]

I never even hinted that I thought I had proved anything, "beyond a shadow of a doubt," I said that I had some more data then I explained how it was similar to my previous data. All along I have indicated that I was suspicious and that I was looking to have Nissan review the charging logs from my car.

The charger is supposed to be limited to 3.3KW - that is where I got my 13.2KWH number for 4 hours of charge. This is Nissan's spec. I haven't seen any reliable source that states that the charger can exceed 3.3KW, no matter what comes in at the wall.

Sorry, I guess I got carried away. As to the 3.3kW rating, I think that is just nominal, and probably relates to its approximate output, rather than its input. But of course output (i.e. battery input) is what your calculations were based on, so that is a reasonable number to use. We do have reports in other threads here that input to the charger can be a full 16 amps or a bit more.

Ray

FYI: The LEAF's on board charger module can pull up to 3.84kva from the wall, and is spec'd to put out 3.3kW at that input. (86% total efficiency) I think this is a worst-case, so it could actually put out more than 3.3kW.

-Phil

 

[Bassman]

It's 24Kwh. I have a separate Time of Use Meter for my AV EVSE unit and it has indicated 26.4 KWh going into the battery when I was at near empty at least a couple of times.

 

[davewill]

It's 24Kwh. I have a separate Time of Use Meter for my AV EVSE unit and it has indicated 26.4 KWh going into the battery when I was at near empty at least a couple of times.

I'm inclined to agree, but, at 90% efficiency wall to battery, that gives a capacity of 23.76kwh and at 80% it's 21.12kwh. Since we don't know how efficient the charger and EVSE are together, I don't see that this settles anything.

 

[Bassman]

I'd say that 24.76 is pretty close to 24. And many others have speculated that the charging system is about 90% efficient, so 24 seems to fit better than 20. IMHO

 

[evnow]

I'd say that 24.76 is pretty close to 24. And many others have speculated that the charging system is about 90% efficient, so 24 seems to fit better than 20. IMHO

90% is definitely speculation. Most websites (and various charging systsem specs) indicate 85%. BTW, that should be 23.76 as calculated above. 85% makes it 22.4 kwh.

BTW, your "26.4 KWh" seems to be on the higher side compared to what others got. It was L2 charging, right ?

 

[Bassman]

Yeah, L2 on a 40 amp circuit, so 16 or so amps, but as others have speculated it seems to charge at a little faster rate than the 3.3 Wh hr rate. I typically charge in 6 to 6.5 hours and sometimes 5.5 hours from one to two bars remaining to 100%.

 

[Ingineer]

Apparently nobody bothered to read my post (repeated below). Since the LEAF pulls 3.84kva from the wall (assuming power factor of 1, that's 3.84kW), and puts out 3.3kW (according to Nissan), the efficiency would be 86%.

-Phil

FYI: The LEAF's on board charger module can pull up to 3.84kva from the wall, and is spec'd to put out 3.3kW at that input. (86% total efficiency) I think this is a worst-case, so it could actually put out more than 3.3kW.

-Phil

 

[davewill]

Apparently nobody bothered to read my post (repeated below). Since the LEAF pulls 3.84kva from the wall (assuming power factor of 1, that's 3.84kW), and puts out 3.3kW (according to Nissan), the efficiency would be 86%.

I did, but since you didn't then draw any conclusions from it, I didn't think it really told us the real world performance, nor how much the EVSE might affect that number. Are you telling us you're sure the capacity is 24kwh (or at least close)? I'd be willing to accept your assurance.

 

[evnow]

FYI: The LEAF's on board charger module can pull up to 3.84kva from the wall, and is spec'd to put out 3.3kW at that input. (86% total efficiency) I think this is a worst-case, so it could actually put out more than 3.3kW.

That is close to what I see - calculated using the m/kwh from the wall & m/kwh that Leaf shows. Still have to wonder how accurate that 3.3kW is (and thus the 86%). I guess it depends on the temperature ...

And then we have the charger cooler that needs to run consuming some power when charging (which doesn't make it to the battery).

ps : The life time m/kwh of wall and Leaf I show in my sig comes to 76%. Hmmm ....

 

[ERG4ALL]

It seems that many want to calculate the battery capacity in relation to getting the 100 mile/charge that Nissan claims. We must remember that the 100 miles per charge was with the LA4 EPA test. This test has an average mph of 19.59 and in that number is only less than two minutes (about 100 seconds) at 55 mph, the rest on city streets peaking around 30 mph between stops. I wonder if anyone has tried to replicate the LA4 test? If they cannot achieve 100 miles per charge then we may have an issue with Nissan not being truthful about the range. If however, a duplication of the LA4 test in real world conditions verifies the claim then all of these battery capacity issues are moot. The LA4 test with a graphic output can be found on the internet http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/uddsdds.gif. This test lasted for only 1,369 seconds (22.8 minutes) and covered 7.45 miles with an average of 19.59 mph. I presume that because it is a dynamometer test, anyone who tries to replicate it in the real world should do it on level ground. I also presume that there must have been some allowance for aerodynamic drag. I would be interested in seeing the results of any of the fastidious out there that want to take on the test.

 

[evnow]

It seems that many want to calculate the battery capacity in relation to getting the 100 mile/charge that Nissan claims.

Not in this thread.

 

[Ingineer]

Apparently nobody bothered to read my post (repeated below). Since the LEAF pulls 3.84kva from the wall (assuming power factor of 1, that's 3.84kW), and puts out 3.3kW (according to Nissan), the efficiency would be 86%.

I did, but since you didn't then draw any conclusions from it, I didn't think it really told us the real world performance, nor how much the EVSE might affect that number. Are you telling us you're sure the capacity is 24kwh (or at least close)? I'd be willing to accept your assurance.

All I'm saying is what I know to be fact, here are the facts:

Pack amp-hours: 67.568Ah (on the particular LEAF I tested)
Charger Maximum input: 3.84va

The EVSE will not affect anything unless it is signalling a pilot PWM duty cycle of less than 26.6%. For instance, the Panasonic unit with my rev 1 upgrade has a PWM duty cycle of 20%, which means that on 240v the max in is down to 2.88va. The Blink, AV, Coulomb, or my upcoming rev 2 upgrade all have PWM percentages at or above 26.6%, so there is no charge current restriction. Local voltage sag could affect output, however.

Sorry I can't yet get a definitive answer. If someone wants to loan me their car for a few days, I can instrument the pack and get a definitive number. =)

-Phil

 

[nader]

Phil what's this Rev 2 upgrade you speak of? I have two on order with you but I have no car yet and the extra EVSE I ordered from Nissan is on eternal back order.

 

[Ingineer]

I have announced that testing has begun on a prototype upgrade for the upgrade. =) It permits full level 2 charging on the LEAF. It still has the same L6-20 plug and will charge at max speed on the 20 amp circuit.

As I mentioned, It's only a prototype at this point, but my current plan is to offer this as an additional upgrade once rigorous testing is complete. Don't worry, There will be a way for existing rev 1 upgrade owners to get this as well for a nominal cost. I will take care of my existing customers!

Please don't ask anything else, such as when or how much. It's still too early to tell! I will not answer emails, PM's or anything else on this issue until I have more to share. Thanks!

I just wanted to let people know, as this will be the cheapest route for full level 2 charging, and the Nissan/Panasonic unit is by far the best-built unit out there.

If you have not sent your units in by the time we are able to offer this additional feature, you will be able to add it on easily.

FYI: We have purchased (and sold) all of Nissan's remaining stock of EVSE's in North America, so they are now on national backorder from Japan. Word is end of the month before we get the next shipment.

-Phil

 

[abasile]

I have announced that testing has begun on a prototype upgrade for the upgrade. =) It permits full level 2 charging on the LEAF. It still has the same L6-20 plug and will charge at max speed on the 20 amp circuit.

Very cool! Now all we need is an upgrade to the onboard charger. How about 6.6 kW? :lol: