Leaf versus Tesla

[stone]

unresearched question - sorry

I know a little about the Leaf, a good little, but nothing about the Tesla.

But, focusing on the range issue only.

Why is the Tesla about 3 times better? How can it be this much better? This seems like too much to me.
And I'm using ~ 100 for leaf and ~ 300 for the Tesla. (miles or whatever)

What I want to know is a hierarchy of the reasons why the tesla gets its range over the leaf.
Is it the battery? The programming? The engineering? The approach?
What? and Whatever?

Why is the Tesla range so much better?

Thanks as always.
It just seems like the race 'ought' to be closer and it concerns me. It makes me fear that the Leaf people have made a mistake somewhere. I know money is a factor. But still. I don't like the looks of the Tesla at all. I think the Leaf is more appropriate looking and somehow better looking. I don't think a first generation electric road vehicle should be in any way, or much of a way, sporty or sports-car-like. That just seems dishonest to me. But there are no shortage of people living in a multiverse of dream-worlds, I guess.

 

[TonyWilliams]

But, focusing on the range issue only.

Why is the Tesla about 3 times better? How can it be this much better? This seems like too much to me.
And I'm using ~ 100 for leaf and ~ 300 for the Tesla. (miles or whatever)

What I want to know is a hierarchy of the reasons why the tesla gets its range over the leaf.
Is it the battery? The programming? The engineering? The approach?
What?

Welcome to EV's, and thanks for not being afraid to ask. I'm sure if I don't post, you'll get a few snotty responses that you should just "search", but I can understand how hard that might be for somebody who isn't versed in EV-speak.

The EPA rated ranges for the cars are as follows with a 100% charge:

2014 GM Spark EV  -  82 miles, 20kWh battery ($35,000)

2013 Nissan LEAF  -  84 miles, 24kWh battery ($28,800 to about $37,000)

2013 Toyota Rav4EV- 113 miles, 50kWh battery ($51,000)

2013 Tesla Model S - 208 miles, 60kWh battery ($70,000 to about $85,000)

2013 Tesla Model S - 265 miles, 85kWh battery ($80,000 to about $100,000)

Hope this answers your question.

 

[fooljoe]

Why is the Tesla range so much better?

To put it simply, it's the battery. As Tony pointed out, the Leaf's battery is 24kwh, and the (top-of-the-line) Tesla's is 85kwh.

If your battery's 3.5x as big, you can (roughly) expect to go 3.5x as far. However, in an EV the battery is the primary contributor to the cost, so it's no accident that the Tesla costs just about 3.5x as must as the Leaf as well.

I don't like the looks of the Tesla at all. I think the Leaf is more appropriate looking and somehow better looking. I don't think a first generation electric road vehicle should be in any way, or much of a way, sporty or sports-car-like. That just seems dishonest to me.

Hmm... You'll find a lot of people in here who love their Leafs, but I don't think any of them would say the Leaf is better looking than the Model S. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I guess? Are you thinking of the Roadster perhaps? I guess how you could see it being kinda funny looking. But as far as looking sporty being "dishonest", I don't get that. Perhaps you have some preconceived notions about electric cars being slightly bigger "golf carts". The Roadster can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, beating just about any gas car in existence.

P.S. Tony where do you get the Rav4-EV as having a 50kwh battery? I'm pretty sure our 2012s have 41.8kwh, and looking at Toyota's page the 2013 doesn't look any different.

 

[RegGuheert]

P.S. Tony where do you get the Rav4-EV as having a 50kwh battery? I'm pretty sure our 2012s have 41.8kwh, and looking at Toyota's page the 2013 doesn't look any different.

41.8 kWh is the available battery capacity for the Rav4EV. Tony's chart is for total battery capacity.

 

[apvbguy]

the tesla is an awesome car, both looks and range are incredible, however the price asked for the car is too huge of a roadblock that most people cannot overcome.
the tesla is an awesome car at a price point almost anyone could afford however the car is encumbered by a limited range.
when the costs of the tesla comes down a bit and/or the range of the leaf increases a bit, and both will happen, I think that EVs will become more popular

 

[cstambaugh]

Not even looking at the fact that they are both EV, the caliber of car between the leaf and model S is huge. The model S is a premium sedan, where as the leaf is just an econo-box. Its exactly the reason why a nissan versa costs less than 20k new, and a MB S550 costs $100k new. They are both ICE cars, but completely different worlds.

 

[DanBaldwin]

I don't like the looks of the Tesla at all. I think the Leaf is more appropriate looking and somehow better looking. I don't think a first generation electric road vehicle should be in any way, or much of a way, sporty or sports-car-like. That just seems dishonest to me. But there are no shortage of people living in a multiverse of dream-worlds, I guess.

LOL

Thanks for that! You just made me blow coffee out of my nose.

The leaf has very respectable performance at something like a 9 second 0-60 time and a top speed of about 93 MPH, but at 4 seconds or so 0-60 for the Tesla, it is DEFINITELY a sporty car. I don't know what the top speed is, but well over 110. The only thing "dishonest" about the sporty looks of the Tesla is that it can seat 7 with the jump seat option.

The days of electric vehicles being golf carts with car bodies on them is LONG gone.

 

[DanCar]

... Why is the Tesla about 3 times better? ...

Because it costs 3 times as much. You get what you pay for. After government rebates Leaf is under $20K. Lease a leaf for $100 a month. Tesla lease costs $1000 a month.
http://www.boardwalknissan.com/specials/new.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Desertstraw]

But, focusing on the range issue only.

Why is the Tesla about 3 times better? How can it be this much better? This seems like too much to me.
And I'm using ~ 100 for leaf and ~ 300 for the Tesla. (miles or whatever)

What I want to know is a hierarchy of the reasons why the tesla gets its range over the leaf.
Is it the battery? The programming? The engineering? The approach?
What?

Welcome to EV's, and thanks for not being afraid to ask. I'm sure if I don't post, you'll get a few snotty responses that you should just "search", but I can understand how hard that might be for somebody who isn't versed in EV-speak.

The EPA rated ranges for the cars are as follows with a 100% charge:

2014 GM Spark EV  -  82 miles, 20kWh battery ($35,000)

2013 Nissan LEAF  -  84 miles, 24kWh battery ($28,800 to about $37,000)

2013 Toyota Rav4EV- 113 miles, 50kWh battery ($51,000)

2013 Tesla Model S - 208 miles, 60kWh battery ($70,000 to about $85,000)

2013 Tesla Model S - 265 miles, 85kWh battery ($80,000 to about $100,000)

Hope this answers your question.

Original Toyota RAV4EV-100 to 120 miles, NiMH battery pack has a capacity of 27 kWh (The MSRP was US$42,000)

EV1-"75 to 150 miles Nickel-metal hydride battery pack", 26.4 kW (GM based the lease payments for the EV1 on an initial vehicle price of US$33,995)

Does anybody see something strange?

 

[RonDawg]

Original Toyota RAV4EV-100 to 120 miles, NiMH battery pack has a capacity of 27 kWh (The MSRP was US$42,000)

EV1-"75 to 150 miles Nickel-metal hydride battery pack", 26.4 kW (GM based the lease payments for the EV1 on an initial vehicle price of US$33,995)

Does anybody see something strange?

If you're thinking how much further those vehicles went for the money they cost, remember that's $42k and $34k in 2002 and 1999 dollars respectively. That's $53k and $46k respectively today.

So the RAV4 EV has actually dropped slightly in terms of price per mile of range.

Source: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Here are the figures returned by Wolfram Alpha:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=42000+2002+dollars+in+current+dollars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says 42K in 2002 dollars is now $54,837 in 2013 dollars.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=33995+1999+dollars+in+current+dollars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says 33,995 1999 dollars is $47,929 in 2013 dollars.

Unfortunately, one couldn't buy an EV1, AFAIK. They were lease only and them GM took them back, sending most to the crusher.

 

[RonDawg]

Regardless of which source you use to calculate prices adjusted for inflation, the point is that you cannot compare price points from different years without making this adjustment. It's like people who lament the days of 25 cent/gallon gasoline, forgetting that 25 cents in 1955 is worth $2.15 today.

EDIT: a quick Google search is showing the average price of gas in 1955 to be 29 cents/gallon, the same as $2.49 today. A couple of weeks ago I filled up in Casper, WY for $2.99/gallon, the equivalent of 35 cents/gallon in 1955.

A bit over 10 years ago, when gas prices fell to around a buck a gallon here in the LA area, that was the equivalent of drivers in the mid 1950's paying 15 cents/gallon. But few people were celebrating that we were paying perhaps the cheapest gas in our motoring history, other than by buying thirsty trucks and SUVs.

 

[cwerdna]

A bit over 10 years ago, when gas prices fell to around a buck a gallon here in the LA area, that was the equivalent of 15 cent/gallon gas in the mid 1950's.

Yeah. I remember that.

I was down in So Cal w/my parents in December 2001, partly to go to Disneyland. We were amazed that gasoline everywhere was under $1/gallon. We didn't even bother shopping around for cheaper gas, at those prices. I don't recall it being that low in Nor Cal, at the time.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Original Toyota RAV4EV-100 to 120 miles, NiMH battery pack has a capacity of 27 kWh (The MSRP was US$42,000)

EV1-"75 to 150 miles Nickel-metal hydride battery pack", 26.4 kW (GM based the lease payments for the EV1 on an initial vehicle price of US$33,995)

Does anybody see something strange?

My quotes are EPA 5 cycle miles at 100% charge. What would that be for an original Rav4? We don't know, 'cuz it didn't exist. The new Rav4 is ridiculously large and heavy compared to the original.

The EV1 was a tiny carbon fiber car that cost GM some 6 figure amount per copy. The closest thing we have to that will be the Jan 2014 release of the BMW i3.

If you're arguing actual range, the second generation Rav4 with 41.8kWh usable and 3.4 miles per kWh at 65mph on flat, no wind, dry roadways with no heater will go:

65mph: 3.4 * 41.8 = 142 miles
55mph: 3.9 * 41.8 = 163 miles
45mph: 4.5 * 41.8 = 188 miles

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

It is curious that the leaf gets 24kwh out of a 650 lb pack and tesla gets 85kwh out of a 1000 lb pack. Different materials/chemistry etc tmk.

 

[davidcary]

I don't think 1000 pounds is right. It is more like 1400 I believe. Still more dense.

 

[stone]

Why is the Tesla range so much better?

To put it simply, it's the battery. As Tony pointed out, the Leaf's battery is 24kwh, and the (top-of-the-line) Tesla's is 85kwh.

So it's back to batteries again as the hold up.

With nano and rare earths, graphene research going full blast maybe we'll seen some progress in this area. The good battery tech is probably so tightly classified that it'll be another 50 effin years before anything shows up. By then there'll be a new empty space model that will render batteries moot.

Anyway, thanks.

 

[fooljoe]

So it's back to batteries again as the hold up.

With nano and rare earths, graphene research going full blast maybe we'll seen some progress in this area. The good battery tech is probably so tightly classified that it'll be another 50 effin years before anything shows up. By then there'll be a new empty space model that will render batteries moot.

Anyway, thanks.

No, I wouldn't say that the batteries are holding up anything. In fact, I'd say the existence of the Tesla Model S proves that's not the case. The only problem is that the Model S is still a very expensive car, but we don't need any major technological breakthroughs to change that. The idea is that once production scales up enough a car with the capabilities of the Model S will be available for a Leaf-like price.

 

[Zythryn]

...The good battery tech is probably so tightly classified that it'll be another 50 effin years before anything shows up...

Not sure what planet you live on, but "anything" has already shown up.
As a matter of fact, lots of options have shown up.
Tens of thousands of people are happily enjoying the experience of driving electric. Most everyone on this board is enjoying that.
If you need an electric car that also flys, or will take you to the bottom of the ocean, you are right, you may need to wait 50 years, but probably not

 

[stone]

Not sure what planet you live on,

Earth 2013: Gas at 4$ a gallon adjusted for inflation is still cheaper than buying a Leaf or a Tesla. And with shale oil and shale NatGas, the future immediate is very much undetermined.

A $100K Tesla or a $30k Leaf, with an overnight charge time, still buys a lot of tankfuls of good old gasoline. Time is money is life. It's all very mathematical.

The rich are different.