mad about averaging only 67 miles per charge in last 27trips

[gartaylor]

well, nice to know Nissan IS listening! And that Nissan still upholds their "100 mile range" claim. Dealership said battery was fine & that although we achieved only a 67 mile range average in 27 trips - everythings hunky dory. We live close to Portland and keep the car in the garage. We're calculating the percentage used by charging the Leaf to 100% and checking the ending percentage and miles driven - so if the percentage charge goes from 100 to 20, that's 80% used and we drove 45 miles... that is 45/80 = 56 miles for a 100% charge. Obviously Nissan knows we cannot take the car to 0% and they actually want us to only charge to 80%, which makes any calculation harder to do. We're still keeping mileage records (and Nissan gets all of these by wifi, so it shouldn't be any surprise) and will really start worrying when temperatures get below 50 degrees. By the way, the main driver of our Leaf is a 57 year old 1st grade teacher, we build leaves all over the place (history says 3.9 miles per kwh whatever that means), but only achieved 67 miles per charge and falling.

 

[gartaylor]

sorry for the delay, too busy at work. Can't believe some of the posted over close or over 100 miles per charge. We drive the Leaf like little old ladies... BUT - we aren't counting ECO mode or climate control OFF as a legit way to get to Nissans 100 miles per charge. Anyway - we are finding that with our normal city commute & plenty of leaves... we got only 67 miles per charge. It just doesn't get 100 in normal use in our experience. It doesn't seem right that tests or claims should include eco mode or climate control off...

 

[gartaylor]

altitude change is minimal (and all trips roundtrip) and we did get the software update. Our Leaf is one of the 1st thousand. My apologies - I'm sure all users on the Nissan Leaf forum are genuine and just trying to be helpful. Maybe we'll just try harder and use ECO mode and turn off the climate control. The Leaf is a great electric car. We just expected to get the 100 mile range. Thanks for all your input!

 

[SanDust]

well, nice to know Nissan IS listening! And that Nissan still upholds their "100 mile range" claim. Dealership said battery was fine & that although we achieved only a 67 mile range average in 27 trips - everythings hunky dory.

If it makes you feel any better I may get 67 miles or so. I don't take it down to turtle since I really don't want to mess with it, but last week I went something like 48 miles or so and ended up with three bars remaining, so a 67 mile estimated range doesn't' shock me. A lot of my driving is freeway. Generally speaking I try to keep it between 60-65 MPH but it's hard since the car can easily go faster. I don't think I've ever used ECO but I don't use the AC much and would almost never use the heater.

My guess is what you're seeing is simply the range getting shorter as the weather gets colder. As it gets colder your range is going to drop even more. It's even possible that when it gets very cold and nasty the range might even drop to 50 miles. Best guess is you'll see a 35+% drop from the best weather to the worst weather. (Obviously the range decrease won't be nearly so dramatic in a place like SoCal). What range did you get when the weather was warmer? Also note that the car's battery is still relatively new. As it ages you'll get less range but by Nissan's standards the battery will be performing as expected.

I have always been critical of the 100 mile range claim. In another thread I wrote that we shouldn't pillory Mark Perry but on this topic we should. He has been anything but a straight on the range. When pressed about the 100 mile claim he usually responded that "some" people would get more, never mentioning that most people would get less, and many would get a lot less. Nissan way over-hyped the range and no doubt will get a lot of blowback.

Truth be told this is something of a Schadenfreude moment for me. I've been consistently critical of the 100 mile claim, and many posters here were, in turn, highly critical of any post that suggested the Leaf didn't have a realistic 100 mile range even when the battery was new. They were also outraged that the EPA could even suggest that the Leaf's range would be 73 miles. Come December and January 73 miles may look good to a lot of people.

BTW good luck with those taxes.

 

[TomT]

Anyone who had actually looked at what the LA4 cycle consisted of should not have been the least bit surprised that both the EPA and real world mileage was much less than 100 miles. The LA4 cycle uses speeds and regimes that are totally different and far more conservative than what the vast majority of drivers encounter in the real world in the U.S.
The EPA nailed it just about right with their 73 mile real world finding.

Truth be told this is something of a Schadenfreude moment for me. I've been consistently critical of the 100 mile claim, and many posters here were, in turn, highly critical of any post that suggested the Leaf didn't have a realistic 100 mile range even when the battery was new. They were also outraged that the EPA could even suggest that the Leaf's range would be 73 miles. Come December and January 73 miles may look good to a lot of people.

 

[TonyWilliams]

We're calculating the percentage used by charging the Leaf to 100% and checking the ending percentage and miles driven - so if the percentage charge goes from 100 to 20, that's 80% used and we drove 45 miles... that is 45/80 = 56 miles for a 100% charge. Obviously Nissan knows we cannot take the car to 0% and they actually want us to only charge to 80%, which makes any calculation harder to do. We're still keeping mileage records (and Nissan gets all of these by wifi, so it shouldn't be any surprise) and will really start worrying when temperatures get below 50 degrees. By the way, the main driver of our Leaf is a 57 year old 1st grade teacher, we build leaves all over the place (history says 3.9 miles per kwh whatever that means), but only achieved 67 miles per charge and falling.

Where EXACTLY are you getting this percentage number?

 

[edatoakrun]

(history says 3.9 miles per kwh whatever that means)

It means you can drive about 80 miles on a 100% charge, at that m/kwh.

Drive 15-20 mph slower, and you can go about 100 miles.

Nissan's range estimates for various driving conditions were, and are, correct.

your Nissan LEAF™ is built to go 100 miles on a single charge(1)how far you'll go will depend on a number of variables

a fully charged new battery has a range of 138 – 62 miles. range is most affected by the following factors:Climate control – the more extreme the temperature is outside, the more energy used to heat or cool the cabin.

Speed – higher speeds require much more energy to overcome air resistance.

Driving style – smooth acceleration and deceleration will extend range while aggressive acceleration and deceleration will decrease range.

Cargo and topography – heavy cargo and driving up steep long inclines will reduce range.

there are an infinite number of range scenarios(2), based on many variables. here are just a few, starting with the EPA LA4 test cycle:EPA LA4 test cycle: 100 milesThe Nissan LEAF has been tested under the EPA Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule, a laboratory test commonly called the LA4 test cycle, which represents city driving conditions. Top speed is 56.7 mph and average speed is 19.59 mph. Ambient temperature can vary from 68 - 86 degrees. Climate control is off. The Nissan LEAF easily achieved 100 miles.
Ideal driving conditions: 138 milesSpeed: Constant 38 mph

Temperature: 68 degrees

Climate control: Off

Driving on a flat road at a constant 38 mph means less air resistance, and therefore less energy use. And at 68 degrees, there's no need for climate control, extending the range even further. The result: a range boost up to 138 miles.
Suburban driving on a nice day: 105 milesSpeed: Average 24 mph

Temperature: 72 degrees

Climate control: Off

The average speed in this scenario is 24 mph; common when commuting and running errands. The ambient temperature is 72 degrees and the climate control is off. Not using the air conditioner and driving at slower speeds mean less energy use and a little extra range.
Highway driving in the summer: 70 milesSpeed: Average 55 mph

Temperature: 95 degrees

Climate control: On

Averaging 55 mph on the highway, in 95 degree weather, with the air conditioning on high may produce range figures like this. Higher speeds require more energy to overcome air resistance. Running the air conditioner means energy that could be used to increase range instead goes to cooling the car.
Cross-town commute on a hot day: 68 milesSpeed: Average 49 mph

Temperature: 110 degrees

Climate control: On

Driving from a rural area into the city at an average 49 mph with the a/c on high may produce this range. Under these conditions, climate control combined with higher-speed driving produces increased energy consumption, hence the effect on range.
Winter, urban stop-and-go, traffic jam: 62 milesSpeed: Average 15 mph

Temperature: 14 degrees

Climate control: On

Though the average speed is only 15 mph with stop-and-go traffic, the 14-degree temperature means the heater is doing a lot of work so you spend considerable time and energy heating your car rather than moving forward. Despite these conditions, it would still take more than 4 hours to run out of charge!
Disclaimers1) 100 miles based upon EPA LA4 city cycle conducted in laboratory tests. See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Based upon EPA five-cycle tests using varying driving conditions and climate controls, the EPA has rated the Nissan LEAF a driving range of 73 miles. Battery capacity decreases with time and use. Actual range will vary depending upon driving/charging habits, speed, conditions, weather, temperature, and battery age. Actual range will vary depending upon driving/charging habits, speed, conditions, weather, temperature, and battery age.

(2) All above scenarios based on new battery life. Estimated range based upon specific variables studied through computer simulations

.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/theBasicsRange/index" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The one thing Nissan never explained in detail was how ascent and descent would affect range, and I have been very satisfied with my results.

 

[gartaylor]

Thanks Nissan! Too bad all that "variable" information wasn't available when we reserved our car on 4-20-10. All your consumers went by was Nissans "100 mile range". Nissan never said it was a 65-138 mile range until just recently. The sticker shows a huge 99, but when we picked up the car we weren't shown it and never were informed about the difference between the EPA 73 and Nissan's 100. Until I started seeing issues with range, I never was even aware of the lower epa number. And if your variable range is even accurate - real consumers (not high milers) never get close to even 100 without using ECO (ie. making the sporty Leaf into a Yugo) or without turning off the climate control (so Nissan consumers can either freeze or boil). Even in Summer, we never went over 80 miles on a charge. Thanks tho!

 

[TonyWilliams]

You can get over 100 miles without being in Eco mode. If you got 80 miles already, that's pretty good. What did the car fuel indicator show after 80 miles?

I still don't have a firm grasp on how you're determining 67 miles. When you've driven those 67 miles, what does the fuel gauge show? i.e., how many fuel bars, and/or battery warnings.

I don't care what the range prediction on the dash or via CarWings says.

 

[defiancecp]

to add another anecdote, I get around 75 miles driving 35-40 in-city only, based on a similar technique to what the op described - mapping out the 'bars' based on the threads and in-depth discussion in this forum, tracking bars remaining/miles driven/starting charge, and calculating what the extrapolation would be. Some days I drive 15-20 miles, some days I drive 55+. And even considering a two-bar "reserve", I almost always come up with 75 miles extrapolated 100% range driving very 'softly' and with climate control off or minimized. It's honestly a bit surprising just how dead-on consistent it has been - the only times I extrapolate to below 70 are when I've had to use defroster significantly, when I've had to take interstate, or when I've decided to pretend I've got a sports car . And no matter how softly I've driven, it has never extrapolated to above 80. Not once. And while I haven't driven it to turtle, I have driven it to 'low battery' a number of times, with results consistent with what was calculated otherwise.

I would feel extremely comfortable if asked to drive 70 miles of city driving from a full charge in this car, no worries. I would take another vehicle if I needed to drive 80, though.

Honestly, that's similar to what I expected. And I love the car. But 100 miles real world is bull. Advertise it as 75, and I'd say they were dead on - but "real world" figures should be achievable by any owner in non-extreme climates and conditions, and as this thread has shown, many owners simply cannot under any circumstances reproduce a 100-mile range.


Again, though, 75 mile range still makes me very happy. Or, more commonly, 60 mile range on 80% charge makes me happy. And I knew what to expect when I bought the car. It's still very much worth it

 

[abasile]

Thanks Nissan! Too bad all that "variable" information wasn't available when we reserved our car on 4-20-10. All your consumers went by was Nissans "100 mile range". Nissan never said it was a 65-138 mile range until just recently. The sticker shows a huge 99, but when we picked up the car we weren't shown it and never were informed about the difference between the EPA 73 and Nissan's 100. Until I started seeing issues with range, I never was even aware of the lower epa number. And if your variable range is even accurate - real consumers (not high milers) never get close to even 100 without using ECO (ie. making the sporty Leaf into a Yugo) or without turning off the climate control (so Nissan consumers can either freeze or boil). Even in Summer, we never went over 80 miles on a charge. Thanks tho!

Admittedly, many of us on this forum over-studied and obsessed over the LEAF before the first one was delivered to a customer. We were thus well aware of the "fine print" with respect to range months before any of us took delivery of our cars. We went in with our eyes open, and for the most part were not disappointed. I personally am very, very happy with the LEAF.

But most "real consumers" don't study car purchases obsessively. I think one can be forgiven for thinking "100 miles" means 100 real world miles, even though the fine print says otherwise. Nissan and their dealers would be well advised to put greater emphasis on the EPA range of 73 miles.

On the other hand, the LEAF's electric drivetrain does make it possible to drive quite efficiently if you learn a few techniques. Gasoline cars typically don't give the driver nearly as much flexibility in achieving high efficiency, unless one is okay with lots of "engine off coasting" as practiced by well-known hypermilers. With the LEAF, a range of 100+ miles really is achievable in many cases.

 

[DaveEV]

Thanks Nissan! Too bad all that "variable" information wasn't available when we reserved our car on 4-20-10. All your consumers went by was Nissans "100 mile range". Nissan never said it was a 65-138 mile range until just recently.

It certainly wasn't available back on 4/20/2010, but was available about 1 year ago.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/20/nissan-details-electric-leafs-range-variables-will-it-calm-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Boomer23]

Nissan never said it was a 65-138 mile range until just recently.

No offense, you are clearly a serious and well intentioned poster, but I have to tell you that Nissan provided these range scenarios by mid-2010. I reserved the same day that you did, on 4/21/10, and was watching this forum and Nissan's news releases carefully since then. These range estimates were provided months and months before we actually had to commit to buying or leasing the LEAF. As we've said, we all signed a document that re-stated this information again when we took delivery of our LEAFs.

Also, it still isn't clear to me how you determine percentage of charge remaining. The "miles remaining" display, what most of us call the guessometer or GOM, is insufficiently accurate to base a range estimate on. If you add your miles driven to the miles remaining shown on the GOM, you'll underestimate your actual range. There is always a reserve present until you get down to the second low battery warning, and that reserve will not be shown on the GOM. Using the 12 fuel bars to calculate a percentage is also inaccurate because the fuel bar measurement is too coarse for this kind of calculation and because there is a reserve bar that doesn't appear on the display.

It also sounds like you may have the climate control set to some comfortable temperature, which will cause the heater to go on as it gets colder into the fall and winter, yet you still expect the car to give you 100 miles of range. The heater pulls a lot of amps, and you're just not going to get your maximum possible range with the heater going constantly. That's why Nissan is including seat heaters and a heated steering wheel in the cars with the cold weather package.

All that said, I wish you good luck and enjoyment with your LEAF.

 

[SanDust]

No offense, you are clearly a serious and well intentioned poster, but I have to tell you that Nissan provided these range scenarios by mid-2010. I reserved the same day that you did, on 4/21/10, and was watching this forum and Nissan's news releases carefully since then. These range estimates were provided months and months before we actually had to commit to buying or leasing the LEAF. As we've said, we all signed a document that re-stated this information again when we took delivery of our LEAFs.

I think the problem was that while Nissan did release those scenarios the main theme that marketing kept harping on was "100 mile range, 100 mile range, 100 mile range." However, even if this wasn't the case, and Nissan had emphasized the scenarios rather than the claimed 100 mile range, given that all those scenarios were based on 100% charging: (1) When did you find out that Nissan recommended only charging to 80%?; (2) Shouldn't the the EPA have tested the range using an 80% charge if this is the recommended charging level?

 

[Volusiano]

I think several posters had asked the OP this crucial question several times, but the OP never bother answered it. What low level does the OP consider the cut-off level for the 67 miles? Is it with 0 bars remaining? 1 bar remaining? 2 bars remaining? Is it until the 12 miles remaining warning comes on?

Without this piece of crucial information, the claim of 67 miles is worthless.

I can easily claim that the Leaf only gives me 30 miles out of 100% charge if I don't reveal to people that my cut-off level is with 6 bars left, for example.

So, OP, please answer the question posed: WHAT IS YOUR CUT-OFF LEVEL?

If it was given and I missed it, I'll apologize. But I just don't see this answer anywhere.

 

[LEAFfan]

With the LEAF, a range of 100+ miles really is achievable in many cases.

+1! Yeah, I can't believe I'm only one of a few that can obtain 100 miles on an 80% charge. So there should be many getting 100 miles on a 100% charge if they are city driving only and sparingly using the A/C. It probably would be a different story if they use the heater. It will be interesting to see if pre-heating the cabin will be all I'll need this winter. Our nights can get into the low 30's during winter.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So there should be many getting 100 miles on a 100% charge if they are city driving only and sparingly using the A/C. It probably would be a different story if they use the heater. It will be interesting to see if pre-heating the cabin will be all I'll need this winter. Our nights can get into the low 30's during winter.

No heater; my longest trip on one charge:

 

[LEAFfan]

Drive 15-20 mph slower, and you can go about 100 miles.
The one thing Nissan never explained in detail was how ascent and descent would affect range, and I have been very satisfied with my results.

Actually, all Gar has to do is drive 10 mph slower to get 4.6m/kW h which would be about 100 miles. Using ECO will give you the exact same motor power as in 'D', you just have to push the accelerator a little farther/harder. The nice thing about ECO is that you get more regen (much less use of brakes), your energy consumption is reduced, and you will get a better m/kW h if you are using the HVAC system.
I lost very little going up and down in the mountains, but what is much worse on your mileage is WIND. THAT's a killer!

 

[LEAFfan]

No heater; my longest trip on one charge:

Exactly! That's over 100 miles! I can't tell when you lost your last bar, but it looks like to me that you still have some extra miles in there. You should have anywhere from 8% - 15% left. Gar needs to realize that when he has two bars left, it isn't 17% SOC like CWs says, but closer to 26% (that's what mine shows)!

 

[planet4ever]

I have a strong suspicion as to how gartaylor is calculating his 67 miles. He says:

We're calculating the percentage used by charging the Leaf to 100% and checking the ending percentage and miles driven

I believe he is looking at the percentages reported by Carwings. Most of us know, of course, that this is just a misleading extrapolation based on the number of bars shown. Let's try a few hypothetical runs and see what happens:

miles    carwings    presumed  full tank
driven  percentage    %used    distance
  44       33           67         66
  28       58           42         67
  57       17           83         69

That indeed averages 67 miles per charge. Now, using Tony's table, let's see what those numbers would yield if we assume Gids are valid:

miles    carwings    number     percent    full tank
driven  percentage   of bars     gids      distance
  44       33           4      36.3-43.4    69-78
  28       58           7      58.0-62.2    67-74
  57       17           2      26.0-31.3    77-83

Now the average is somewhere between 71 and 78 miles per charge.

Ray