My car just died and thinking about purchasing a used S or SV Leaf - Help me decide

[cwerdna]

What do you guys think about purchasing an SV model without the quick charge port? I plan to charge only at home.

I did. The Leaf I returned at end of lease had it. I bought a used one w/o it. Didn't care to pay more $ for CHAdeMO inlet. See below:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=429566#p429566
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430521#p430521
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430552#p430552
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825

I'm also still considering the S model (w/ QC and sub 15k mileage) I test drove which would be similarly priced at just under $10k. Since Atlanta is not really that cold in winter, I think I could get away with running the resistive heater at a low setting. I plan to make my final decision by Wednesday.

I haven't read all your posts carefully, but I wouldn't. See below as to why.

The heat pump advantage is significant if you have an extended commute. With a 50 mile commute you may be pushing it with a non-heat-pump model in winter unless you are able to charge at work (even at 120 volts would be sufficient if it's plugged in all day) and with a degraded battery even more so.

Yep.

There will be some temporary capacity loss in colder weather. That coupled w/heater usage and extra rolling resistance due to wet pavement will work against you. Battery will degrade and eventually, even an SV or SL will become a problem doing that commute outside of winter.

 

[GerryAZ]

50 miles on a charge is possible even with 8 capacity bars (down 4 bars) using A/C, but not using resistance heat. I made my 52-mile roundtrip mostly freeway commute running A/C after losing 4 bars until Nissan replaced the original battery in my 2011. I had to disable the heat after losing 2 bars to make my commute in winter.

Gerry

 

[Leafitornot]

Gerry, cwerdna: The resistive heater is really 100% efficient.... so surely running it at a lower current will match the heat output and economy of a heatpump?

cwerdna - I read your posted thread where you referenced your Leaf Spy numbers...Ahr=60.15, SOH of 91% and Hx of 92.12% What benchmark values do you think I should consider reasonable for a 13 Leaf? It is my understanding that Ahr is the most important value? Not sure what Hx is? Lastly, is there a consensus on the effect of the type of previous charging to the long term health of the battery - ie history of only trickle charging verse quick charging etc.

I'm now leaning towards picking up an SV without quick charge to save some money. It seems as if the heater and other features like cruise control will be preferable to a model S with quick charge. thx

 

[LeftieBiker]

I'm pretty sure the S has power steering!

Gerry, cwerdna: The resistive heater is really 100% efficient.... so surely running it at a lower current will match the heat output and economy of a heatpump?

Not addressed to me, but I can answer. First, that old truism about electric heat being 100% efficient is true - for conversion efficiency - but misleading. It just means that any system losses are in the form of heat, and so get added back into the total. All heaters are not created equal when it comes to heating. Now, the important part: it uses much more energy to produce heat than to move it around. Heatpumps are called that because they "pump" heat around, either from the indoors out, or vice versa. If a system can collect heat from the environment - even a cold one - then it can heat a house, car, or whatever with much less energy than a system that must produce the heat. The leaf SV and SL actually have what are commonly called here "hybrid" heaters: there is a resistance heater as well as a heat pump, and they are used singly or in combination to produce heat as needed. So since the S model has to produce 100% of the heat it needs, but since the SV and SL can move heat into the car from outside, they require much less power, at least in the heatpump's operating range. It can provide a little heat down to about 6F, but really helps most above about 25F.

 

[Leafitornot]

Whoops, not power steering....I meant cruise control (edited to avoid confusion!). Also thanks for the clarification on the heat pump/resistive heater workings. Leftie, I also just noticed you have the SV without QC. Do you every regret not getting the QC package?

 

[cwerdna]

Gerry, cwerdna: The resistive heater is really 100% efficient.... so surely running it at a lower current will match the heat output and economy of a heatpump?

No. The heat pump is more efficient.

cwerdna - I read your posted thread where you referenced your Leaf Spy numbers...Ahr=60.15, SOH of 91% and Hx of 92.12% What benchmark values do you think I should consider reasonable for a 13 Leaf? It is my understanding that Ahr is the most important value? Not sure what Hx is?
...
I'm now leaning towards picking up an SV without quick charge to save some money. It seems as if the heater and other features like cruise control will be preferable to a model S with quick charge. thx

I honestly don't know. The Leafs that were coming thru auction accessible to that used car dealer were SF Bay Area ones. It was already difficult enough (w/o waiting a long time, 2 weeks at a time) to get one that matched my color preferences AND was an SV with premium package only at a reasonable price w/decent condition. Sure, I could keep looking around but everyone else was more expensive and there's no guarantee any car in the SF Bay Area was in better shape battery-wise and in terms of interior and exterior.

The car had all its capacity bars, came back clean on Carfax and Autocheck and had better readings than my own leased '13 Leaf (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=431208#p431208) despite my taking reasonable care of the battery, most of the time. My leased Leaf had a build month of 6/2013 vs. the one I own now of 5/2013.

I unfortunately live in a hotter part of the South Bay and my work apparently is slightly even hotter. If I lived and worked in say city of SF or Daly City, then I'm sure my battery would've been in better shape.

It's primarily going to depend on temperature and also on age. I'd imagine my values would be awesome compared to a Leaf from Phoenix for the same aged Leaf but lousy for one that resided in city of SF or the Seattle area (lived there for ~9 years).

I don't know how the values are derived. AFAIK, Nissan never documented any of whatever Turbo3 has been able to find on the CAN bus, so we don't know how accurate they really are or how much they can be depended on. It sure does look like all 3 of those values get worse as time passes and as capacity bars go away.

If I really wanted one w/a battery in much better shape, I'd have to pay a premium and deal w/a dealer in Oregon or Western WA, which isn't that convenient.

Yes to the last point, IMHO.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Whoops, not power steering....I meant cruise control (edited to avoid confusion!). Also thanks for the clarification on the heat pump/resistive heater workings. Leftie, I also just noticed you have the SV without QC. Do you every regret not getting the QC package?

No, because they still haven't installed QC anywhere in my area. The Capital of NY State, and the Albany area still has zero quick charging stations.

 

[Leafitornot]

What is the consensus on car color.... is there a significant difference in battery life between a white/silver Leaf and a black Leaf?

 

[LeftieBiker]

What is the consensus on car color.... is there a significant difference in battery life between a white/silver Leaf and a black Leaf?

No consensus, but it may well depend on your climate. Hot and sunny may mean less battery life for a SuperBlack Leaf, but frigid and sunny could mean more...or at least a warmer car on sunny days.

 

[Leafitornot]

Still looking for a Leaf, but have some time now. Anyway, I wanted to check if anyone has noticed that on some leafs there appears to be a much larger gap between the hood and front panels or charging door and hood? Any reason to avoid a Leaf with a larger than normal looking gap, assuming no history of accidents.

I also want to check if Leafs manufactured in early 2013 (Jan to May) would have more issues than later models - I had been told to avoid early 2013 models, but I've yet to see any evidence of a difference in quality.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The body panel gap issue may or may not indicate a more general lapse in assembly quality - I don't think we have enough evidence. Given a choice, I'd get one with good fitment. At the very least I'd point it out as a bargaining chip. I honestly don't know about the early MY 2013 cars (I keep meaning to check mine for build date, and keep forgetting) but again, given a choice I'd pick a car built later in the year. There seems to be a belief here that the better battery chemistry was added after 2013 production started, but I'm guessing - with equal lack of evidence - that they used the change in production plants to change the packs from the beginning, in US-built cars.

EDIT: I looked, and mine was built 4/13, a month before I leased it. I still have 12 bars, but other signs indicate I may lose one soon. The last LBW I got (Monday) was at 19%, instead of the usual (although I rarely get them) 18%. My range also seemed less on this last long trip.

 

[Leafitornot]

Checked out a 2013 Leaf SV with 16k miles - it was very low on charge at the time (13 miles range remaning). Leaf Spy lite returned the following values: AHr = 58.97; SOH = 90%; 359.70V; HX = 89.77%; 42QCs & 562 L1/L2s; and SOC= 21.8%

How do these values shape up? From what I understand 90% SOH means that the battery will lose a bar fairly soon, but it seems that most 2013 Leafs have about 90% SOH.

To be honest, I'm having second thoughts about buying a used Leaf right now, I'm starting to look at some used Priuses - although these are quite a bit pricier. I may just hold off a few months as I'm convinced that the prices will continue to plummet as an increasing number of off-lease Leafs hit the market.

Anyway, thanks for all advice posted in this thread!

 

[Leafitornot]

Had day off today and some fun checking out some Leafs. I posted the same info in the battery degradation thread - hopefully this will be helpful to some people....

All cars tested were 2013 models.

Model, mileage, SOH, AHr, voltage?, Hx, QC/L1,L2

SV: 16k, 90%, 59.29, 377.08V, 90.41%, 0/852
SV: 10k, 91%, 59.61, 395.54V, 91.04%, 0/368
SV: 16k, 90%, 58.97, 361.70V, 89.77%, 42/562
SV: 24k, 88%, 57.60, 386.51V, 86.79%, 1/1076
S: 22k, 90%, 59.15, 396.32V, 90.14%, 1/1168
SL: 19k, 88%, 57.83, 394.16V, 87.28%, 26/515
S: 18k 98%, 64.11, 393.96V, 98.31%, 1/652
SL: 18k, 100%, 67.08, 369.02V, 103.15%, 2/1231

Based on the available carfaxes, most of the cars were driven in Georgia. It appears that 90% SOH should be pretty much the norm for a 2013 Leaf. I've updated this info in the battery degradation thread.