MY ZEV license plate at LAX, Why did you unplug my Leaf?

[mwalsh]

New option for aftermarket: push bars

:lol:

 

[SanDust]

Insufficient, poorly planned, poorly marked, poorly managed public charging WILL causes more problems than it solves. But, EV utility suffers without public charging. What's needed is a FINANCIALLY sustainable business model to encourage sufficient public charging. And that means pay-to-charge. Price will control demand from those that can manage without.

The beauty of Herm's suggestion is that it separates parking from charging. If they're tied then the most common result will be having people who don't need charging using the spaces, denying access people who do need charging and would be willing to pay for it.

You make a good point that public charging doesn't have be free. That is often lost. I also agree that a sustainable business model would be best. My problem is I just don't see the numbers adding up. Even if the margins would be OK the volume would be too small to cover the installation costs. For example, if all the people on this board who say they want public charging had to pay $.25/kWh for public charging, which might make the provider $.75 an hour, how many would buy? I'm thinking very few.

 

[SanDust]

Clearly you have a different EV philosophy than I have arrived at, which is when the car is sitting around, if it is below 50%, it should be in some kind of charge mode. As others have pointed out, there is electricity distribution all around us. Why not encourage easy access to it.... I do agree that some kind of reasonable usage fee is in order, but my bet is that will be here soon enough.

I think you're naive about the costs. The problem is that the existing wiring won't support a lot of charging. For example, someone mentioned plugging into available sockets in a parking facility. That sounds like it will work but what will happen is that three or four cars will plug in and the circuit will blow. The outlet is there for maintenance workers needing much lower power, and it's probably rated for 120V 20 amps, which is not going to be able to support more than one EV drawing as little as 1440 watts. The facility could upgrade the supply and rewire but that would be very expensive.

After a few go-rounds of having to reset the breakers the facility is most likely to ban charging, not encourage it.

Now the facility might be able to support one charger, but it would have to dedicate the circuit to that one charger, making it very likely that you'd never get to use it because some other EV would be using it.

This is why Herm's plan for fewer fast chargers separate from parking makes sense. You can't monopolize the charger for more than twenty minutes so more EVs could use it. But it would be expensive. What does one of these things cost, $80,000 plus upgraded service?

 

[EVDRIVER]

Clearly you have a different EV philosophy than I have arrived at, which is when the car is sitting around, if it is below 50%, it should be in some kind of charge mode. As others have pointed out, there is electricity distribution all around us. Why not encourage easy access to it.... I do agree that some kind of reasonable usage fee is in order, but my bet is that will be here soon enough.

I think you're naive about the costs. The problem is that the existing wiring won't support a lot of charging. For example, someone mentioned plugging into available sockets in a parking facility. That sounds like it will work but what will happen is that three or four cars will plug in and the circuit will blow. The outlet is there for maintenance workers needing much lower power, and it's probably rated for 120V 20 amps, which is not going to be able to support more than one EV drawing as little as 1440 watts. The facility could upgrade the supply and rewire but that would be very expensive.

After a few go-rounds of having to reset the breakers the facility is most likely to ban charging, not encourage it.

Now the facility might be able to support one charger, but it would have to dedicate the circuit to that one charger, making it very likely that you'd never get to use it because some other EV would be using it.

This is why Herm's plan for fewer fast chargers separate from parking makes sense. You can't monopolize the charger for more than twenty minutes so more EVs could use it. But it would be expensive. What does one of these things cost, $80,000 plus upgraded service?

Under $17K for some models.

 

[1051]

Responding to this thread is only cutting into the amount of time I could spend with porn. No real loss there.

LOL!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

+2

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

http://www.myperfectautomobile.com/chevy-volt-debuts-plugless-charger/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i think this is a repost. but inductive charging has the potential to come a long way. charging is done by RFID comm to the car so charging an ICE would not happen. electrocution would not happen either.

this could solve a host of problems. for example having a dozen pads but only QC capabilities for 2 or 3. your input transfered by RFID will allow the pad to schedule your charge within its capabilities while meeting your specific needs.

this could go a step farther in battery management by putting a maintenance charge on a Leaf that is scheduled to be sitting for several days at 50-60% SOC then only fully charging it a few hours before the expected departure time.

 

[SanDust]

Under $17K for some models.

That's a whole lot less than I was thinking it was, and it makes DC charging a lot more doable. Upgraded service will still be a problem though. I believe Walgreens said the lack of infrastructure was the reason why it was only putting in 150 DC charging stations.

 

[davewill]

All this talk of "they took my J-plug without asking" has me thinking that inductive charging built into the parking space might have some appeal for popular/busy spots like at LAX..

Of course, all inductive charging does for us in this instance is force no plug sharing. You can't unplug someone if there's no plug. It brings us back to the same thing...the only REAL solution is plentiful EVSEs, whether J1772 or inductive.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Under $17K for some models.

That's a whole lot less than I was thinking it was, and it makes DC charging a lot more doable. Upgraded service will still be a problem though. I believe Walgreens said the lack of infrastructure was the reason why it was only putting in 150 DC charging stations.

Well, how many Walgreens have 440. Target, Home Depot, Lowes, etc, perhaps.

 

[JimSouCal]

Clearly you have a different EV philosophy than I have arrived at, which is when the car is sitting around, if it is below 50%, it should be in some kind of charge mode. As others have pointed out, there is electricity distribution all around us. Why not encourage easy access to it.... I do agree that some kind of reasonable usage fee is in order, but my bet is that will be here soon enough.

I think you're naive about the costs. The problem is that the existing wiring won't support a lot of charging. For example, someone mentioned plugging into available sockets in a parking facility. That sounds like it will work but what will happen is that three or four cars will plug in and the circuit will blow. The outlet is there for maintenance workers needing much lower power, and it's probably rated for 120V 20 amps, which is not going to be able to support more than one EV drawing as little as 1440 watts. The facility could upgrade the supply and rewire but that would be very expensive.

After a few go-rounds of having to reset the breakers the facility is most likely to ban charging, not encourage it.

Now the facility might be able to support one charger, but it would have to dedicate the circuit to that one charger, making it very likely that you'd never get to use it because some other EV would be using it.

This is why Herm's plan for fewer fast chargers separate from parking makes sense. You can't monopolize the charger for more than twenty minutes so more EVs could use it. But it would be expensive. What does one of these things cost, $80,000 plus upgraded service?

All commercial plugs have a minimum of 20AMP based on NEC--whether that overwhelms the service of the building-- as to the local grid infrastructure--I won't speculate but think it could be over come, especially using a distributed generation strategy of alternative energy sources. The most expensive fixed cost of a charger will turn out to be the real estate in most cases. We think very differently, that is for sure. I leave your characterization of my thinking to be judged by the test of time.

 

[SanDust]

All commercial plugs have a minimum of 20AMP based on NEC--whether that overwhelms the service of the building-- as to the local grid infrastructure--I won't speculate but think it could be over come, especially using a distributed generation strategy of alternative energy sources.

It's not generation it's distribution. If we have ten plugs in a parking facility all those plugs are on the same 120V 20A circuit. You don't have a dedicated circuit for every plug. This means exactly one EV could plug in. Plugging in even one additional EV will blow the circuit.

To support 10 EVs with trickle charging you'd need to rewire the facility to carry that load, either by wiring for 150A or by putting in ten 15A dedicated circuits (we're not in the building so I think you can use 15A circuits). But doing either would need either a 150 amp breaker or 5 open slots for half breakers at the panel.

Realistically you're talking about significantly upgrading the service and this is not cheap.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

All commercial plugs have a minimum of 20AMP based on NEC--whether that overwhelms the service of the building-- as to the local grid infrastructure--I won't speculate but think it could be over come, especially using a distributed generation strategy of alternative energy sources.

It's not generation it's distribution. If we have ten plugs in a parking facility all those plugs are on the same 120V 20A circuit. You don't have a dedicated circuit for every plug. This means exactly one EV could plug in. Plugging in even one additional EV will blow the circuit.

To support 10 EVs with trickle charging you'd need to rewire the facility to carry that load, either by wiring for 150A or by putting in ten 15A dedicated circuits (we're not in the building so I think you can use 15A circuits). But doing either would need either a 150 amp breaker or 5 open slots for half breakers at the panel.

Realistically you're talking about significantly upgrading the service and this is not cheap.

nothing is cheap and the alternative to EVs is most definitely not cheaper than installing a charging network.

granted short term costs must be considered especially in times where no one but corporations has any cash to spend, but the long term costs are far far cheaper than continuing to burn oil

 

[adric22]

Interesting thread.. So, if it were a gas car hogging up the spot, I'd say stick a potato up the tailpipe. But with another Leaf, you can't even do that! I suppose you could oreo the car or something like that.

 

[SanDust]

granted short term costs must be considered especially in times where no one but corporations has any cash to spend, but the long term costs are far far cheaper than continuing to burn oil

Given that there are few if any public chargers now and many people are getting along nicely without them, maybe they are not needed. It's doesn't really come down to the the choice you're offering, which is public chargers OR EVs. It's more that for 20% of the cost you can deal with 90% of the charging issues, so is it worthwhile to spend 4X as much to deal with 10% of the charging needs?

The thing is, if you have to rewire for 120V charging it's probably not a lot more expensive to put in DC Charging, which can serve more EVs. This was, I believe, Herm's initial point. One pay charger would suffice in that only those needing a charge would use it. Once you get into one charger per vehicle I think you get into all kinds of issues, including ICEing of the parking spot.

In cold places this may be less of an issue because parking lots may be wired for block heaters. Block heaters draw between 750W and 1200W. Similar to EV trickle charging. They also have control system which turn off some of the circuits at different times. Might be of interest to those living in MN or AK.

 

[Smidge204]

Realistically you're talking about significantly upgrading the service and this is not cheap.

If it's that bad, you're probably better off installing a new, dedicated service anyway.

Interesting thread.. So, if it were a gas car hogging up the spot, I'd say stick a potato up the tailpipe. But with another Leaf, you can't even do that! I suppose you could oreo the car or something like that.

Hard salami works better. A few hours in the sun and the oils and spies eat right through the paint in some cases.

Besides, there are better ways to solve that problem:

Just move it to a handicap spot or in front of a fire hydrant. :twisted:
=Smidge=

 

[rawhog]

.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

granted short term costs must be considered especially in times where no one but corporations has any cash to spend, but the long term costs are far far cheaper than continuing to burn oil

Given that there are few if any public chargers now and many people are getting along nicely without them, maybe they are not needed. It's doesn't really come down to the the choice you're offering, which is public chargers OR EVs. It's more that for 20% of the cost you can deal with 90% of the charging issues, so is it worthwhile to spend 4X as much to deal with 10% of the charging needs?

The thing is, if you have to rewire for 120V charging it's probably not a lot more expensive to put in DC Charging, which can serve more EVs. This was, I believe, Herm's initial point. One pay charger would suffice in that only those needing a charge would use it. Once you get into one charger per vehicle I think you get into all kinds of issues, including ICEing of the parking spot.

In cold places this may be less of an issue because parking lots may be wired for block heaters. Block heaters draw between 750W and 1200W. Similar to EV trickle charging. They also have control system which turn off some of the circuits at different times. Might be of interest to those living in MN or AK.

i agree and you agree that public charging is not required for EVs to be successful. but for people on the outside (the people we need to succeed) looking in, its needed.

i have used public charging less than a dozen times in my 8300 miles driven and a only a handful of those times i needed the charge to make it home. other the other times was plugging in so others could see me plugged in (most were L1 anyway and useless really unless you are at work) but that has not stopped me and it wont stop others. but the fear of the unknown is what will.

adding public charging equates to having a gas station on the corner. if you need it, at least its there. without that safety net, most will not even consider the thought

 

[JPWhite]

I believe Walgreens said the lack of infrastructure was the reason why it was only putting in 150 DC charging stations.

If all the major chains put in 'only 150' DC fast charge stations, we would be doing mighty fine me thinks.

 

[mwalsh]

Ms. Gordon-Bloomfield posted word of this incident to Green Car Reports:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1065825_leaf-drivers-publicly-shame-selfish-charging-station-user" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[arnolddeleon]

Besides, there are better ways to solve that problem:

Just move it to a handicap spot or in front of a fire hydrant. :twisted:
=Smidge=

Probably slightly faster w/ four of these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/1250-lb-capacity-mechanical-wheel-dolly-67287.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or

http://www.zendextool.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=17_18

arnold