Nissan Crossover EV / Ariya concept

[danrjones]

I think it is priced too high.
The Audi Q4 is starting at around 43k, and that's an Audi.

I don't know what the Ioniq 5 will be but I'm thinking (hoping) also starting in the low to mid 40's.

Why would you spend more for a Nissan?

 

[SageBrush]

I think it is priced too high.
The Audi Q4 is starting at around 43k, and that's an Audi.

What is the range of the $43k Audi ?

 

[lorenfb]

Ariya US pricing is out now.
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/11/16/2023-nissan-ariya-ev-suv-pricing-trims-features/
https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/reservations-now-open-for-all-new-2023-nissan-ariya-electric-crossover

Interesting, the cheapest version has the most range, so it seems you pay more for either quicker 0-60 times or more features I suppose? :? Trying to copy Tesla in that business model?

After doing a feature compare, yes, it's following a Tesla business model, more focused on features and flash than basic stuff. The same battery in all of them, 87 kWh (I guess the 65 kWh didn't make the cut) but as with Nissan, probably only 90% available capacity to be used with reserve at the top, so probably 78 kWh usable. 300 miles seems plausible with a 3.8 m/kWh efficiency on the highway.

Laughable! Tesla is unique. How competitive is the Nissan Infiniti when compared to Audi, BMW, or M/B? It's time for a new Nissan marketing department.

 

[danrjones]

I think it is priced too high.
The Audi Q4 is starting at around 43k, and that's an Audi.

What is the range of the $43k Audi ?

The real range? Don't know but it should be similar to ID4. What is the REAL range of the Ariya? Don't know that either. And is it worth the price difference?

Not to me. YMMV. Pun intended!

 

[mtndrew1]

The Ariya is still a year away from launch and it’s already out of date. Nissan sure has squandered their EV lead.

 

[mtndrew1]

I think it is priced too high.
The Audi Q4 is starting at around 43k, and that's an Audi.

What is the range of the $43k Audi ?

EPA range is 241 miles according to https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=44781

 

[rogersleaf]

My paid-off Leaf is looking like a bargain.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Our leased-with-option-to-buy Leafs are also looking good. Hers even has HD radio, FWIW.

 

[cwerdna]

After doing a feature compare, yes, it's following a Tesla business model, more focused on features and flash than basic stuff. The same battery in all of them, 87 kWh (I guess the 65 kWh didn't make the cut) but as with Nissan, probably only 90% available capacity to be used with reserve at the top, so probably 78 kWh usable. 300 miles seems plausible with a 3.8 m/kWh efficiency on the highway.

ABG implies the smaller battery versions will be available later and probably cheaper.

https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-9eea16a47c78109cfe96b677a003f690 says "Both Ariya front-wheel drive and all-wheel drive models offer a choice of 63 kWh or 87 kWh of usable battery capacity..."

It really is too bad. Nissan is moving way too slowly. If Nissan began shipping this in the US around when ID.4 started shipping and had it out in quantity, they could steal quite a bit of sales from say Model Y (w/its ballooning price tag and no Federal tax credit).

 

[SageBrush]

If Nissan began shipping this in the US around when ID.4 started shipping and had it out in quantity, they could steal quite a bit of sales from say Model Y (w/its ballooning price tag and no Federal tax credit).

You don't think Tesla has price elasticity if faced with actual competition ? This past quarter, Tesla reported ~ 30% gross margin on car sales

 

[cwerdna]

https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-9eea16a47c78109cfe96b677a003f690 under Specs tab says 63 or 87 kWh is the usable capacity while the actual battery capacities are 66 or 91 kWh.

https://usa.nissannews.com/releases/attachment/release-9eea16a47c78109cfe96b677a003f690/d34faebc62e6fd90e96932339094f19d68597eec (PDF on the right) mentions up to 130 kW DC FC. Yeah, ok if it came out now but there are other shipping vehicles (some outside the US) that are already well ahead of that, often with 800 volt charging.

 

[cwerdna]

If Nissan began shipping this in the US around when ID.4 started shipping and had it out in quantity, they could steal quite a bit of sales from say Model Y (w/its ballooning price tag and no Federal tax credit).

You don't think Tesla has price elasticity if faced with actual competition ? This past quarter, Tesla reported ~ 30% gross margin on car sales

Tesla's "margins" are inflated because they decide to not include R&D against cost of automotive revenues. I've not seen other automakers do that in their financials. So, of course TSLA margins look great because they excluded a huge cost.

 

[SageBrush]

If Nissan began shipping this in the US around when ID.4 started shipping and had it out in quantity, they could steal quite a bit of sales from say Model Y (w/its ballooning price tag and no Federal tax credit).

You don't think Tesla has price elasticity if faced with actual competition ? This past quarter, Tesla reported ~ 30% gross margin on car sales

Tesla's "margins" are inflated because they decide to not include R&D against cost of automotive revenues. I've not seen other automakers do that in their financials. So, of course TSLA margins look great because they excluded a huge cost.

They look great, because the rest of their financials look great. And of course the share price has increased about 25x since I first remember you whining how Tesla is over-valued. PLEASE let it be true that you acted on your convictions and shorted TSLA. In the meantime, would you like to answer my question ? Here it is for you again:


You don't think Tesla has price elasticity if faced with actual competition ?

 

[cwerdna]

They look great, because the rest of their financials look great. And of course the share price has increased about 25x since I first remember you whining how Tesla is over-valued. PLEASE let it be true that you acted on your convictions and shorted TSLA.

TSLA "margins" were also "great" because they were inflated for the same reason even when all their financials were all in the toilet and they were incurring major losses almost every quarter.

No, I don't short TSLA. Their stock and valuation is irrational. I have other means of attempting to make $ and it can involve steering clear of taking bearish positions on TSLA. In fact, I sometimes take somewhat bullish positions by selling way out of the money near dated puts (no more than a few weeks out, sometimes a few days from expiry) when TSLA is down then closing them out after making a slight profit or when the put's price drops to $0.05 or less (TD AM lets me close those out for no commission).

People who shorted the stock long ago who still have those positions open have been crushed.

I might answer your question when I have more time. My day job takes precedence and I'm not obligated to answer

 

[lorenfb]

It really is too bad. Nissan is moving way too slowly. If Nissan began shipping this in the US around when ID.4 started shipping and had it out in quantity, they could steal quite a bit of sales from say Model Y (w/its ballooning price tag and no Federal tax credit).

Really? Presently and in the next 2-3 years, Tesla vehicles are basically in an inelastic market, i.e. no need to compete on price.
Given their present quoted delivers, Tesla is in sold-out mode. Tesla has positioned itself well in the high end of the BEV market,
i.e. perceived high value like a Rolex, where consumers are less price sensitive and buy the Tesla brand as they bought a BMW/M/B
in the past. Many seem to forget that the present BEV market is still not a high volume low-end mass market product, where Nissan,
VW, Toyota, and others can be competitive.

 

[knightmb]

https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-9eea16a47c78109cfe96b677a003f690 under Specs tab says 63 or 87 kWh is the usable capacity while the actual battery capacities are 66 or 91 kWh.

https://usa.nissannews.com/releases/attachment/release-9eea16a47c78109cfe96b677a003f690/d34faebc62e6fd90e96932339094f19d68597eec (PDF on the right) mentions up to 130 kW DC FC. Yeah, ok if it came out now but there are other shipping vehicles (some outside the US) that are already well ahead of that, often with 800 volt charging.

Interesting, so 87/91 or 95% usable capacity for the 91 kWh and 63/66 or 95% also usable capacity. Either battery technology has gotten better or they are going to count on the TMS to help with battery degradation? Or have an option to charge to 80% to preserve battery life? I guess I really need to bug those guys at Nissan HQ the next time I run into them to ask. :lol:

That would put the efficiency calculations more towards (300 / 87 ) 3.4 m/kWh target efficiency for highway driving I suppose? I don't know what the aero drag is on the Ariya, but it must be heavy too? Seems that around town city driving with that much capacity could easily get you a lot more range, maybe even kiss 400 miles or so.

A whole year away, I wonder if anything will change or if this is now set in stone for mass production?

 

[knightmb]

Really? Presently and in the next 2-3 years, Tesla vehicles are basically in an inelastic market, i.e. no need to compete on price.
Given their present quoted delivers, Tesla is in sold-out mode. Tesla has positioned itself well in the high end of the BEV market,
i.e. perceived high value like a Rolex, where consumers are less price sensitive and buy the Tesla brand as they bought a BMW/M/B
in the past. Many seem to forget that the present BEV market is still not a high volume low-end mass market product, where Nissan,
VW, Toyota, and others can be competitive.

I have to agree that Tesla has built the luxury level brand for EV and price isn't an issue for them, they can't build them fast enough. Where I am, you see just as many Tesla (it not more now) than I see of the Gen 1 or Gen 2 Leaf driving around. Even see Tesla charging at the Nissan HQ charge stations. :shock: :lol:

I know Nissan has to stay competitive, but trying to emulate Tesla is a fools errand for them. They should focus on what they do well, build an affordable EV. While I'm sure Pro Pilot 2 and all of that is probably cool, having such a high priced EV to start with is going to turn a lot eyeballs away. When I attend EV events for the public, more people are interested in the Leaf for it's price, not for the gadgets or games you can play on the display or some software upgrades to help you smoke ICE vehicles at the drag strip. They want a functional and dependable EV, one they aren't going to freak out if it gets a scratch or ding on the side from a shopping cart.

I do hope some things can improve before the release next year, at least as far as packages or pricing goes.

 

[cwerdna]

It really is too bad. Nissan is moving way too slowly. If Nissan began shipping this in the US around when ID.4 started shipping and had it out in quantity, they could steal quite a bit of sales from say Model Y (w/its ballooning price tag and no Federal tax credit).

Really? Presently and in the next 2-3 years, Tesla vehicles are basically in an inelastic market, i.e. no need to compete on price.
Given their present quoted delivers, Tesla is in sold-out mode. Tesla has positioned itself well in the high end of the BEV market,
i.e. perceived high value like a Rolex, where consumers are less price sensitive and buy the Tesla brand as they bought a BMW/M/B
in the past. Many seem to forget that the present BEV market is still not a high volume low-end mass market product, where Nissan,
VW, Toyota, and others can be competitive.

Well, the Y was where some people were going if they wanted an small SUV-class BEV but now with the wait times and prices going up, that leaves an opening for others w/cheaper ones in that class (e.g. ID.4) if they had readily available stock. If Ariya were shipping now in the US with its full $7500 Federal tax credit unlike all non-GMs and non-Teslas, you don't think some folks interested in a BEV SUV would at least consider it?

Sure, there are some HyunKia efforts in this space but they seem uninterested in (for the US) selling outside CARB emission states.

 

[lorenfb]

It really is too bad. Nissan is moving way too slowly. If Nissan began shipping this in the US around when ID.4 started shipping and had it out in quantity, they could steal quite a bit of sales from say Model Y (w/its ballooning price tag and no Federal tax credit).

Really? Presently and in the next 2-3 years, Tesla vehicles are basically in an inelastic market, i.e. no need to compete on price.
Given their present quoted delivers, Tesla is in sold-out mode. Tesla has positioned itself well in the high end of the BEV market,
i.e. perceived high value like a Rolex, where consumers are less price sensitive and buy the Tesla brand as they bought a BMW/M/B
in the past. Many seem to forget that the present BEV market is still not a high volume low-end mass market product, where Nissan,
VW, Toyota, and others can be competitive.

Well, the Y was where some people were going if they wanted an small SUV-class BEV but now with the wait times and prices going up, that leaves an opening for others w/cheaper ones in that class (e.g. ID.4) if they had readily available stock. If Ariya were shipping now in the US with its full $7500 Federal tax credit unlike all non-GMs and non-Teslas, you don't think some folks interested in a BEV SUV would at least consider it?

Sure, there are some HyunKia efforts in this space but they seem uninterested in (for the US) selling outside CARB emission states.

Yes, some would consider the Ariya, but it really wouldn't significantly affect the Tesla MY. Again, it's the Tesla brand that the consumer wants
now when buying a BEV. From a marketing standpoint, it's very difficult to overcome a brand preference. Samsung, and even Huawei,
make very nice smart watches with great features, but Apple dominates because of its brand preference.

 

[cwerdna]

Autoblog really likes the interior:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=450067936475667