Nissan Engineering Team Visit Dec. 3rd: Recap

[Ingineer]

Wow, I go off line for a day or so and come back to an explosion of interest in the meeting. I'm very happy to see it and I hope people outside the group see it as well. Several things come to mind in reading through postings of the last 36 hours:

We definitely need to give Nissan due recognition for bringing out the LEAF. That is why linkim and I decided to ask for people's top 3 likes at the beginning of the thread. And I think those 3 are pretty clear, mostly around performance. Presenting a top 10 is definitely a worthy thing to do. Finally, on this topic, the very first slide we will show at the meeting (even before the agenda) will have wording to the effect of "We applaud Nissan Motors for having the courage to be the first major automotive company to introduce a mass-produced, 100% electric vehicle to the North America market." Exact wording to be worked out. We'll also thank Kadota-san for bringing his team to our meeting.

This meeting cannot turn into a rant about what's wrong with the LEAF, as Phil says. As linkim says, they are eager to learn, and not to hear the obvious. I really like the idea of dividing the suggestions into two categories: Improvements for the LEAF, and suggestions for future EVs. The presentations we give must be carefully thought out and presented in the proper context. We must demonstrate a depth of knowledge to back up our suggestions. We'll show progress on this at the November meeting.

Linkim and I have discussed including a section at the end, i.e., how can we help each other? Suggestions for beta testing, in my view, are spot on. I also think we could do some of their vehicle to home unit testing as our power system is nominally the same as that in Japan (120V, 60 Hz).

Given the explosion in interest in this meeting, it's going to be way beyond the ability of the existing small team (linkim, Hy and me) to accomplish it all. So, we will be requesting volunteers to help support the effort. Particularly, getting web access for those who can't attend and for expanding the number of charging docks/coordinating charge schedules. We are in touch with Rolf and will ask to get some of the docks reprogrammed to accept non-Googler cards for activation.

Thinking out loud here, linkim and I already knew that we had too much information to present, so we thought that focus would be best. Perhaps we can ask if they would be interested to have a series of meetings, regularly? I imagine that they come to North America on a quarterly basis. If they are willing to invest 1/2 day each trip to meet with informed and excited users, we'd be happy to expend the effort to put it together. If they do agree to have some beta testing here in the US with us, then I would think they would want to have such regular meetings. Maybe we can put together a roadmap for Nissan/owner Engineering interactions. Again, all this is just thinking out loud.

Excellent points Howard. I'll take on the distillation of the forum's issues so we can arrive with a well thought-out list.

BTW: Japanese power is NOT the same as ours; it's 100v 60hz in typical residential outlets. Only 20v less, but still, not identical.

-Phil

 

[tbleakne]

>>> Charging will be available on site--I believe that Google is making 6 L2 charging stations available to us. Details will be posted as we get a little closer to the event. One of our members who works there will organize a "parade" to the designated stations as he has to activate them individually with his own card. There are also several members that live close by that would be willing to host charging. <<<<
>>> Can any one confirm that a single charge pass can unlock several stations concurrently? Via request of the host (Google) - I understand Coulomb might be able to assist system level rules / authorizations that could help facilitate guest charging from the network side.

Also from that email thread... is anyone in touch with Rolf @ Google - I gather he is part of the Google EV Program management. Don't want to speak out of turn but I bet we can easily come up with more than 6 LEAFs that need juice in order to get home. To maximize efforts for those LEAFs on the edge of range I'll bet coordinating some 110 access would also be perfectly welcome.

I'm sure there's awareness about the event within Google - just want to be sure we are good EV guests and a little glitch doesn't prevent charging or expectations get mis-matched due to over booked charging slots.
-Paul

It is very nice of Google to host this, and we should be grateful, but surely more than 6 of their charge stations should be available on the weekend ? Are all the rest programmed for private access only?

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2011/06/10/google-and-coulomb-install-70-ev-charging-stations/

 

[tbleakne]

>>>> I really like the idea of dividing the suggestions into two categories: Improvements for the LEAF, and suggestions for future EVs.
Linkim and I have discussed including a section at the end, i.e., how can we help each other? Suggestions for beta testing, in my view, are spot on. <<<

I urge you to consider adding to the agenda a few minutes on "Top Questions" we have for them about the car. Ideally this should be part of what you give them in advance of the meeting.

A really important topic for me and others I know would be more details about the battery management and how to maximize battery life, while still utilizing all or most of the battery's capacity on occassional longer trips. For example:

Q: When (how often) does the Leaf balance the cells in the main battery? Every charge? Charging to 100%? Charging to 80% and 100%? Only manually by a technician?
Q: Can balancing at the top end reduce capacity at the bottom end?
Q: Is discharging below one bar easier, the same, or harder on the battery than charging it to 100% ?
Q: Is charging to 90% significantly better on the battery than charging to 100% ?
Q: Is it more important to avoid charging the Leaf to 100% on hot days, as reported for the Volt ?

 

[cwerdna]

BTW: Japanese power is NOT the same as ours; it's 100v 60hz in typical residential outlets. Only 20v less, but still, not identical.

It's 50 hz in some regions per many travel books I've read on Japan and pages like http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2225.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/arrange/essential/electricity.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[TomT]

It's even more complicated than that. Part of the country is 50 Hz. and part of it is 60 Hz.

[BTW: Japanese power is NOT the same as ours; it's 100v 60hz in typical residential outlets. Only 20v less, but still, not identical.
-Phil

 

[adrianco]

We upgraded the suspension on our leaf with the tein springs and dampers from Japan and its a much nicer drive.

I think there should be a sporty option for the leaf with stiffer ride, heavier and more direct steering. EP100 summer tires and perhaps a bit more peak power remapped to accelerate under 7s 0-60.

Drop in some lightweight recaro style seats as well.

Things I don't like include the seat fabric, which is a dirt magnet.

The carwings part of the website is hard to get to and poorly designed flash application. The iPhone app also needs a lot more usability work, and the historical data should be available in the app or in the car itself.

Adrian

 

[oakwcj]

Phil has reminded us to distinguish between engineering and non-engineering issues for purposes of the upcoming meeting. That makes sense to me. However, because I'm not completely clear on how one defines an engineering issue, this question is for Phil and the other engineers out there. The A pillars on the LEAF are unusually wide and can create a blind spot while turning and in noticing pedestrians. EV DRIVER says that these pillars are so large because of aerodynamic issues relating to the slope of the windshield. So, is this an engineering issue or a non-engineering issue?

 

[Ingineer]

Phil has reminded us to distinguish between engineering and non-engineering issues for purposes of the upcoming meeting. That makes sense to me. However, because I'm not completely clear on how one defines an engineering issue, this question is for Phil and the other engineers out there. The A pillars on the LEAF are unusually wide and can create a blind spot while turning and in noticing pedestrians. EV DRIVER says that these pillars are so large because of aerodynamic issues relating to the slope of the windshield. So, is this an engineering issue or a non-engineering issue?

I'd say that's an engineering issue, but it's unlikely to change. I had to get used to that scenario when I first started driving a Prius. It's likely an un-avoidable side-effect of having a low CD. You can get used to it and still see pedestrians as long as you get used to looking properly, at least I did.

If I had one complaint about visibility, it would be the rear, but I understand some of it comes with the design. Engineering is always about compromises.

-Phil

 

[bowthom]

Hello,
I think the A pillar is beefed up from the Versa version because the car has to pass roll over tests with the weight of the battery being directly over the passenger compartment when the car flips over.

 

[arnolddeleon]

We seem to have juveniles that think it is cute to vandalize the spreadsheet. I've restored the title, someone else has restored one of the column headings. The revision history is available so the material is not lost, it just creates a nuisance.

There are some entries that have been blanked out, I can't tell tell if they were deleted by the person that added them or they were removed maliciously. I preferred the "strikeout" that someone had done on duplicate entry, much clearer on what the edit was. Mysterious blank lines make me suspicious.

arnold

 

[Levenkay]

I know this book is closing, so I thought I'd slip in my picks for the top three things to boast of and to improve.

The good:

1) Doesn't burn up irreplaceable petroleum
2) The peace and serenity of its wonderfully quiet ride
3) Smooth and responsive acceleration

Easy ways to make the Leaf even better:

• 1) No spare tire??? I would have paid for a real spare tire and jack, and the mods subforum showed how to stow it

• 2) Illuminate the charge port

• 3) Pour some energy into standardizing and exploiting the bidirectional communications capability between the car and the EVSE ("complete the design" might be more apt). It's shameful that the LEAF's nav system is so ignorant of charging stations, given that it has a GPS and wireless communications. Leaves know where they are, and any charging station they plug into should be able to describe itself to the car. If the owner of the station has configured it to be a public charging station, then the Leaf ought to consult its records, and, if it fails to find the station mentioned, it should phone a "pollen report" back to the hive, saying, "Level X public charging station at Location xyz ; accessible between the hours of..." ; "fee policy ZYXXY..." . After that, ANY Leaf (or reciprocally participating other type vehicle) should present that station on its charging station maps. Since recharging is kind of a matter of survival for the car, finding charge stations shouldn't be a task fobbed off onto smart phones, it should be builtin.

 

[LEAFfan]

Illuminate the charge port

I can help you with this one...there's a magnetic LED motion light that you can buy from Lowe's for around $13 + tax. Some forum members are already using it.

 

[hpage]

Illuminate the charge port

I can help you with this one...there's a magnetic LED motion light that you can buy from Lowe's for around $13 + tax. Some forum members are already using it.

I got one.. Great but the batteries lasted three weeks!

 

[davewill]

... Leaves know where they are, and any charging station they plug into should be able to describe itself to the car. ...

Nope, the EVSE has no way to communicate anything to the car.

 

[Levenkay]

... Leaves know where they are, and any charging station they plug into should be able to describe itself to the car. ...

Nope, the EVSE has no way to communicate anything to the car.

It communicates its available current, encoded as some nightmare kludge of a PWMmed 1KHz 12V signal on the "control pilot" conductor, with about three or four bits' worth of information encoded in it.

I had assumed that this was a bare-bones rush job to get something running that would only require a ten-cent LM555 chip in the EVSE boxes, but that the developers have plans in mind for adding other communications in the future.

If it turns out that Nissan and the other automakers squandered a resource that could have provided a bidirectional communications interface between car & charging station on a non-expandable brainless five-tone whistle, I'll be pretty disappointed.

 

[davewill]

... Leaves know where they are, and any charging station they plug into should be able to describe itself to the car. ...

Nope, the EVSE has no way to communicate anything to the car.

It communicates its available current, encoded as some nightmare kludge of a PWMmed 1KHz 12V signal on the "control pilot" conductor, with about three or four bits' worth of information encoded in it. ...

No, the duty cycle of the pilot signal indicates the amperage available. There's no "bits" encoded into it at all.

 

[Deleted member 3147]

No, the duty cycle of the pilot signal indicates the amperage available. There's no "bits" encoded into it at all.

This is a beef to take up with SAE, not Nissan.

 

[bowthom]

Hello:
I'm sure these have been mentioned but I don't have time to read the whole thread.
1. Carwings nav klutzy, it's easier to use my iPhone.
2. Control of the heater element so I can cycle the heat element as needed with the pump & fan running to extract the energy out of the heat system. Also allows me to have ventilation without the heater coming on.
3. Have control of all the windows from the driver door when the child lock is engaged.

 

[EricBayArea]

The SF BayLEAFs are arranging a meeting on December 3rd with members of the LEAF Engineering team from Japan. The purpose is to provide direct feedback to Nissan regarding our experiences with the car. It's also a forum for providing suggestions for improvements in both the LEAF and future Nissan EV's. Some (working prototypes) of these will be demonstrated by MNL forum members (e.g., the modified EVSE that provides full Level 2 charging)...

Gascant, it would be very helpful if you could update the first post on the first page to include links to Ingineer's 3 Google Doc Spreadsheets:

-List of Likes

-List of Engineering Issues

-Charger Sign-up List

 

[Levenkay]

No, the duty cycle of the pilot signal indicates the amperage available. There's no "bits" encoded into it at all.

Sorry; that was firmware-ese. I recollected seeing a "duty factor of between x% and y% means ABC amperes" table with entries for about half-a dozen different current levels, which I charitably rounded up to eight. An encoding that represents a selection of one choice among eight possibilities is equivalent to supplying three binary bits of information.