Nissan : Option to not share information with your Utility

[SilverLeaf]

I also received the email. I will not be opting-out.

EcoTality will be contacting my power company (APS) regardless when they pull the permit to install the EVSE.

Also, my PV System will be installed on 2/24. When APS reviews the setup, I believe they will notice the EVSE as well.

I believe (at least here in Arizona) that having an EV will be beneficial as far as the utility companies are concerned. My utility has proposed a super off-peak at super low rates for EV Charging.

 

[evnow]

EcoTality will be contacting my power company (APS) regardless when they pull the permit to install the EVSE.

True - probably holds good for most areas.

 

[Bud]

Merged. Title updated.

Wow! My first authored thread. Thanks evnow!
I figure notification to the utility company is the price of being part of the EV project.
I shall take this honor and improve the quality and relevance of my comments.
Could it be true I've jumped the snark? :roll:

 

[rnkepler]

Yeah, I don't really understand the reason Nissan feels it necessary to share this information with the power company. What is to be gained here by having the power company alerted? Anything to be lost?

Here the utility, Progress Energy, is partnering with the Raleigh to develop the charging infrastructure. Gauging the level of interest and being able to contact the people who will most likely be using the charging infrastructure would be a great benefit to them.

 

[Boomer23]

I got the email. SCE already knows about me and my plans. I've responded to their PEV group several times and I've spoken often to their people. I have no problems having Nissan let them know about my EV plans. As someone else said, I'd rather do that than have them tell me they were unaware and that it's my fault that their distribution plan is in tatters. :roll:

 

[EricH]

Yeah, I don't really understand the reason Nissan feels it necessary to share this information with the power company. What is to be gained here by having the power company alerted? Anything to be lost?

"Service Planning" is utility-speak for the folks who design upgrades to the distribution system. Utilities are having to account for PEV loads that are way bigger than recent consumer 'adds' like plasma TV's and such. Most utilities are happy for the extra off-peak consumption, but don't want distribution system failures to create an anti-EV backlash, so they prefer to plan ahead to prevent transformer failures. Getting info from Nissan (and other EV sellers) helps the utility ensure that your local transformers and circuits can support the L2 charging load. I understand it is particularly bad if 2 or more houses sharing a common transformer both get EV's.

So, "the gain" is the utility has a fair shot at ensuring your transformer doesn't blow when your neighbor (or the guy on the next street over, if your wires run down the back property line) gets a Volt or Leaf and plugs it in at the same time you do. I'm not sure what is "lost", since if you go on an EV-specific rate the utility already knows you have an EV. California utilities set 'baseline' allocations specifically on climate zone and by what kind of space-heating you have (gas/electric); they also will know your hourly kWh usage within the next 2-3 years. Telling them "I have a Leaf" seems a pretty small - and highly relevant - bit of information...

(Disclaimer: While I work for Southern California Edison, not in the Plug-in EV group, I don't speak on behalf of SCE)

 

[charlie1300]

I'm opting out...Sounds like another opportunity to get on more junk mail and Robo-call lists....

 

[DeaneG]

Wow, PG&E has done me few favors but I think the right thing to do is to tell them I have an EV. They have to make the infrastructure work. Should I make them guess what upgrades they need?

 

[Stoaty]

I'm opting out...Sounds like another opportunity to get on more junk mail and Robo-call lists....

Let us know how that is working out for you when a transformer blows. I don't think you are doing yourself, or the EV movement a favor taking this stance.

 

[evnow]

Electrification Coalition (http://www.electrificationcoalition.org/) reported that quite a few local transformers would have to be changed to handle increased loads. I think the problem is in old neighbourhoods with very old transformers (and stable power draw with no new homes being constructed).

In a study conducted by EPRI, plugging in just
one PHEV to charge at 220 volts overloaded 36 of 53
transformers examined during peak hours and five
of 53 transformers during off-peak hours. It is, there-
fore, important to identify where GEVs are parked
and charged so that utilities can be prepared to make
the upgrades necessary to maintain reliable service.

Some more info from the report. I think it is prudent to inform the utility so that they can update the local transformer if needed.

First, the last transformer through which elec-
tricity moves prior to being delivered to residential
customers reduces the voltage to 220 volts. These
transformers typically serve between five and 15
homes, often with a relatively small margin of excess
capacity. While GEVs are plugged in and actually
charging, they represent a significant power draw
for most U.S. homes. A Level II charger operating at
220 volts on a 15 amp circuit is expected to draw 3.3
kilowatts of power, a load that is similar to the average
load in a typical home. In other words, the addition of
a GEV to a circuit is roughly the equivalent of adding
a substantial portion of another house’s worth of load
to the circuit. (On a 30 amp circuit, a Level II char-
ger can draw 6.6 kW of power, far exceeding a typical
electrification roadmap 101home’s average load.) While it is true that much vehi-
cle charging would take place overnight—when loads
in homes are typically low—it is generally understood
by the industry that plugging one or more GEVs into
a single circuit could exceed the transformer‘s limits,
causing it to fail and resulting in a loss of power for
customers served by that transformer. This concern
has been confirmed by research at the Electric Power
Research Institute.

 

[walterbays]

Gee, it sounds like electric utilities are about as popular and trusted as car salesmen.

Wow, PG&E has done me few favors but I think the right thing to do is to tell them I have an EV. They have to make the infrastructure work. Should I make them guess what upgrades they need?

+1

Probably if you live in a new neighborhood, refusal to share information with the utility won't make any difference. If you live in an old neighborhood, and several of your neighbors also get EVs, then it might make the difference between having a blown transformer or not. The utilities want to avoid blown transformers. Nissan and GM very much want to avoid having blown transformers blamed on EVs. That would set back the "EV revolution" even more than cars running out of range and being towed.

I don't think getting an EV will be the utility's excuse to put you on a worse rate. In San Diego, talking to SDG&E about an EV is the opportunity to change to a possibly somewhat better rate structure. But I'm accepted for the EV Project, so through that way more information will be shared with SDG&E. And it will change me to a certainly much better rate structure. A main goal of the EV Project is to determine what rate structure will best persuade drivers to recharge at night when generation and transmission infrastructure is otherwise under-utilized. I expect this means that after the EV Project is over, SDG&E will offer one of those great rate structures to all EV drivers, EVs will use mostly excess night time power, and they will have the necessary infrastructure in place for private and public charging.

So I say opt it. Nissan wins. The utility wins. And you win.

 

[evchels]

This communication between the autos and utilities is a good thing. It's something that some of us (who work in some capacity toward getting EVs on the road) have been encouraging both sides to do for quite a while.

In this case, the service planners are simply checking your transformer and attendant infrastructure. Chances are, you'll never know they were even out there, and there's certainly no implication for switching rates or generally even crossing your property line. Your utility cannot switch you to another rate plan without you requesting it. Because of the sensitivity about sharing information, most utilities aren't even willing to contact you directly even if they know you're getting an EV (which is why Nissan has also sent out info suggesting you contact your utility), though I think a single contact- preferably by email- would be entirely appropriate as not all automakers will choose to follow Nissan's path of sending these emails. I know of EV drivers who are currently paying way too much to charge their EVs because they had no idea EV rates were even available, and most of them would rather have too much info than too little. Certain sharing of information will enable the entire process to go more smoothly, and should local infrastructure upgrades actually be required, it's something everyone involved would want to know sooner than later.

This is an aspect of deployment that I follow closely and participate in, and I would encourage you not to opt out.

 

[kolmstead]

In my mind, the question is how understanding SCE will be when they come out and take a look at individual situations. If they just want to make sure that the transformer feeding your EVSE is big enough, that's fine. But the questionnaire that they want you to fill out online asks for your electrician's name and phone number. That worries me.

If they come out, look at the situation and make helpful suggestions about TOU metering or maybe an additional feed, I would welcome them. But if they want to change my rates without negotiation or mandate permits and inspections, then I don't want them on my property. For me, the question is how to weigh potential costs/benefits. I don't have a good answer. I filled out the form and sat there with the cursor over the "submit" button for a long time. Then I chickened out.

-Karl

 

[gasmiser1]

I say stand up and be counted! Utilities should be given no excuses to say "gee... we didn't know people were buying electric cars". Proudly smack the ball squarely into their court. Providing electrical service is their primary job after all.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds plausible to me.

 

[evchels]

What permits and/or inspections are required are up to the city; SCE has no say (or interest) in that. Rates are not open to negotiation obviously, but they cannot change you from one rate to another without you specifically requesting it. (Excluding solar options, there are 2 rate scenarios in SCE territory for EV drivers, or you can stay on the regular domestic rate- more info at sce.com/pev). They might want to talk to your electrician to see what size circuit will be installed and assess need/options for a subpanel or separate meter- and if you get a separate meter, there may be an additional installation cost, so they'll want to work that through with your electrician so you don't get a nasty surprise. But your utility can't decide for you.

 

[TRONZ]

@evchels... your initials would not be CS would they???

 

[evchels]

@evchels... your initials would not be CS would they???

of course. Figured that was fairly well known by now.

 

[kolmstead]

Thanks, Chelsea! It's good to hear from someone who has been involved for years. I didn't know that SCE could not switch my rate structure w/o negotiation. I do intend to inform SCE, but I'm still worried about the consequences. It is clear from their web page that they assume that I am still thinking about hooking up an EV. I started charging my LEAF on January 15. And then there's the permit issue....

-Karl

 

[aries]

Gee, it sounds like electric utilities are about as popular and trusted as car salesmen.

Indeed... Been screwed by the rates out here so long I'm not telling anyone anything. This stuff never ends up working in our favor.

I wouldn't tell them any more than you have to!

 

[Long4Leaf]

Just one datapoint, but when PG&E evaluated my house for installing a second meter (for E9B), they said they did a load calculation for the neighborhood and that they will be ugrading the transformer. I do live in an old neighborhood (1958) where appliances are typically gas (water heater, stove/range, dryer, heat). I think it is reasonable for them to get this infor, but I sure hope I do not get on some list.