Nissan USA should offer SAE Combo plug

[TickTock]

I am very annoyed with this whole thing. FP solves a problem that doesn't exist and can only hurt the EV migration. Remember the Beta vs. VHS fiasco?

oldie but goodie

 

[hill]

So question then. What do you think Ford and GM will do? Will they simply not worry about DC charging in the next few years?

Oh, they'll continue to push the standard, as will the SAE. But they won't roll out any infrastructure. I can almost guarantee it.

There IS one good thing regarding FrankenPlug . . . due in large part to it's creation, 1- Nissan got on the ball and started putting Chademo's at their dealerships. 2- Chademo knocked off the asinine attempt at making Chademo membership an expensive game, secret decoder ring included. Jeez ... talk about shooting their selves in the foot. If companies learned anything from Microsoft giving away so much of its crap, it's that that way, everyone has their crap, so you end up with the major hitter. imo Frankenplug could STILL make a come back if they use the Bill Gates philosophy.
.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Frankenplug could STILL make a come back if they use the Bill Gates philosophy.
.

Governments aren't going to fund it (except the Made in 'Merica, not Jap-land fly-over states that won't buy EVs anyway).

If GM or BMW are serious, they'll fund it, but:

1. If your plan is to build minimum quantity converted oil burner CARB-ZEV compliance cars, obviously you won't.

2. If your plan was to just slow down / stop CHAdeMO and Nissan in the USA, you probably won't.

3. If you have no serious EV in the pipeline to use Frankenplug, you probably won't.


It's clear that both GM and BMW are making Frankenplug optional ($800 and $2,000' respectively), as CHAdeMO is optional on LEAF. What's different is that the overwhelming majority of LEAFs have CHAdeMO (probably 25,000 or 30,000 cars here in the USA), currently no Spark EVs have a Frankenplug port, and when they finally do, I'll bet they won't sell many. Big hat, no cattle.

For BMW, they appear to wisely offer the oil burner range extender, therefore I expect far more folks to want that over the Frankenplug port for $2,000.

Keep in mind, Spark EV still has to get over the hurdle of "proving" it's not just a compliance car to get the 200 Frankenplug stations with NRG/EVgo. So, if that were done by Jan 1, 2014, then NRG has six months to install the first Frankenplug and must complete all 200 (with CHAdeMO) within 4 years. That's July 2018 to get 200, and they will be so outnumbered by CHAdeMO, it will be asinine.

If BMW is the car that triggers NRG, the earliest for that is probably July 1, 2014, plus 6 months, plus 4 years is Jan 1, 2019.

Frankenplug does not have any other "sure deals", and this one is only in large urban areas in California. I'm sure they are greasing political skids everywhere there is a soft pocket to fill with cash, like Ecotality operates.

Yep, Frankenplug: DOA

 

[fastcharge]

(except the Made in 'Merica, not Jap-land fly-over states that won't buy EVs anyway).

What does that even mean?

 

[TonyWilliams]

(except the Made in 'Merica, not Jap-land fly-over states that won't buy EVs anyway).

What does that even mean?

GM has tried to make Frankenplug a "national pride" bullshit thing, calling it our "national standard" (yes, the only country to use it). That sells really well in the states in the middle of the country that vote red and watch Faux Nooze ad nauseum. Hence, you might get some public funds in those areas that don't want no damn fur-n-ner chargers.

The flip side to that is that those are the same places don't want to buy "Obamamobiles", hence no need for chargers.

 

[fastcharge]

That sells really well in the states in the middle of the country that vote red and watch Faux Nooze ad nauseum.

I was afraid that is what you meant. There are plenty of people that live in the middle of the country that want to see EV's flourish just as much as the people in California. You will get more support if you don't generalize and divide people.

 

[jhm614]

Keep in mind, Spark EV still has to get over the hurdle of "proving" it's not just a compliance car to get the 200 Frankenplug stations with NRG/EVgo.

I remember you said that part of the "not-just-a-compliance" portion was to actually ship one Spark with the SAE plug and to make Spark available in non-CARB areas. Do they have to meet any other requirements? (like sell a specific number in non-CARB areas?)

 

[TonyWilliams]

Keep in mind, Spark EV still has to get over the hurdle of "proving" it's not just a compliance car to get the 200 Frankenplug stations with NRG/EVgo.

I remember you said that part of the "not-just-a-compliance" portion was to actually ship one Spark with the SAE plug and to make Spark available in non-CARB areas. Do they have to meet any other requirements? (like sell a specific number in non-CARB areas?)

Unfortunately, it's not very specific. But, I think CARB is tired of GM games, to be honest. They tried the "stop CHAdeMO" game previously, and also their trade group petitioned EPA to stop CARB to enforce ZEV rules. They claimed, like 2002-2003, nobody wants electric vehicles and the answer was Tesla doesn't seem to have any problem selling ONLY electric cars. If it wasn't for Tesla, and California holding the line, once again we would fall into the EV middle ages.

Two big strikes with CARB from the bankrupt, multi-government owned charger consortium bloc member GM.

Here's the press releases from the most recent battle:


http://blogs.automotive.com/california-air-resources-board-member-says-lobbying-groups-should-stop-fight-against-electric-vehicle-mandate-134693.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"California Air Resources Board Member Says Lobbying Groups Should Stop Fight Against Electric Vehicle Mandate
by Jacob Brown Apr 16 2013 Source Detroit News

[image] 2013 Fiat 500e

The head of the California Air Resources Board (CARB), Mary Nichols, called for lobbying groups protesting California’s mandate for zero-emissions vehicles to stop while speaking at the SAE International’s (formerly the Society of Automotive Engineers) annual World Congress this week.

“We don’t have time to delay the infusion of these technologies,” Nichols said.

Last month, the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers and Association of Global Automakers began petitioning against the mandate, which goes well above and beyond the federal government’s corporate average fuel economy standards that dictate that corporate fleet averages will have to be 54.5 mpg by 2025. CARB mandates that each automaker have a certain amount of zero-emissions cars, forcing them to build more hybrids, plug-ins, electrics, and hydrogen-powered cars than what the AAM and AGM believe the market will take. These cars are expensive and mostly sell in metropolitan areas.

California has called for more than 15 percent of new cars to be zero-emissions, or what will amount to 1.4 million units by 2025. By 2040, CARB estimates that nearly every car in California will be zero-emissions.

The mandate has made it difficult for the seven largest automakers in California to compete, some building vehicles are almost exclusively sold in California like the 2012 Toyota RAV4 EV and 2014 Fiat 500e, often called “compliance cars.” Some have had to buy zero-emissions credits from other automakers, like Tesla Motors, to continue doing business in the state. About a dozen other states have signed on to California’s emissions laws, which have a special exemption to supersede federal requirements. Most states do not have as strict of laws as California.

The Golden State represents the largest new car market in the U.S. with more about 11 percent of new car sales reported, according to Bloomberg. With such a heavy number of vehicles sold in California, it’s almost impossible for an automaker to not feel the state’s influence, which some would argue is a bit monopolistic. On the other hand, with that kind of sway, others might argue that the state is just doing its part to make environmentally friendly technology viable that much sooner."
[© 2013 Automotive.com All rights reserved]



http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/17/carb-chair-mary-nichols-automakers-fighting-zev-mandates/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
CARB Chair Mary Nichols tweaks automakers for fighting ZEV mandates
Mary Nichols, chairman of California Air Resources Board, recently took a jab at automaker trade groups for urging the US Environmental Protection Agency to block California's zero emission vehicle (ZEV) mandates.



http://middletownpress.com/articles/2013/04/18/business/02f09b69-0a7e-42b2-b175-3d52d93eba11.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
California regulator scolds automakers for electric pushback
SOUTHFIELD, Mich. — Automakers are undermining the progress they're making in expanding the market for electric cars and other zero-emission vehicles by petitioning against California's mandates, a state regulator …

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here is a CLASSIC reason why I don't like Frankenplug:

“Automakers are mandated to build products that consumers are not mandated to buy,” said Gloria Bergquist, a spokeswoman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which includes Chrysler Group, Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Co. “If the electric vehicle infrastructure is not in place, consumers may be reluctant to buy these technologies.”

So, they designed a proposed charging standard that isn't in place, making consumers reluctant to buy.

Frankenplug = DOA

 

[TonyWilliams]

That sells really well in the states in the middle of the country that vote red and watch Faux Nooze ad nauseum.

I was afraid that is what you meant. There are plenty of people that live in the middle of the country that want to see EV's flourish just as much as the people in California. You will get more support if you don't generalize and divide people.

Yes, there are. If you are one, then I have great respect for anybody who will drive an electric car in "red states". You have immense ignorance to deal with that I rarely bump into directly (it happens, though, as I'm in a "red" county in a blue state).

Anyway, I feel I'm qualified to generalize where I grew up (Montana) is as backwards as it gets. Even as a kid, I knew that we were 20 years behind the rest of the USA, and that hasn't changed much. Sure, there are some individuals who will push back, but they are outnumbered by a HUGE margin.

By the way, I'm not running for a political office, so I'm not really looking for "support". I'll just keep pumping out the facts.

 

[cwerdna]

I think Nissan USA should start offering the Leaf with the SAE combo plug in the near future.

Do you work for or have a vested financial interest in a company sponsoring the SAE combo plug such as GM?

There's nothing wrong with that, but some disclosure would be nice. Recently joined and the only thing that seems important is not anything related to the LEAF but only adoption of the SAE combo plug. This type of post reminds me of some that I see on a particular GM EV site that makes me wonder if GM is actively encouraging posts to spread their position.

There was recently a post on reddit about astroturfing that was interesting.

Yes, it seems odd the OP's 2nd post sure sounds like astroturfing, esp. given that he joined only a few days ago.

Tony says things like they are and already gave a summary of how serious/not serious the Frankenplug cast is and had previously given one at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=279363#p279363" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKXSt39afFI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has GeorgeB of Tesla talking about CHAdeMO adapters. I believe there was a longer video which included this.

OP is welcome to buy a Frankenplug car and use the plentiful (not) Frankenplug infrastructure. If the Frankenplug cast member summary is out of date or incorrect, please feel free to chime in on that other thread.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm tlaking about the charger plug on the car - which can take AC or DC on the same connector.

Problem is, as I've pointed out many times, there's not even room on the car inlet side of many shipping BEVs and PHEVs to accommodate Frankenplug, even of on vehicles from two Frankenplug cast members. See http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12357-SAE-vs-CHAdeMO/page10?p=325919&viewfull=1#post325919" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

The DC fast charge Frankenplug station would need either be DC only or have a breakaway portion for the 2 extra pins or provide 2 connectors anyway (J1772 AC and another for Frankenplug).

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has an example of GM's Frankenplug shenanigans...

Balch went on to describe the current situation as a "hodgepodge of fast charging standards" with Tesla having its own proprietary level 3 system, Nissan and Mitsubishi using CHADEMO. He noted that last week, at EVS26, an alliance of 8 automakers (including GM) announced support for a the "combo plug" designed by the SAE DC Fast Charging committee. He described this as "a new standard," one "that is going to come, probably before the end of this year," meaning the SAE committee is expected to approve the standard this summer, charging stations are expected to become available late in the year, and cars to become available in 2013.

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S...

Let's see, the Leaf has more 70K units sold worldwide (http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/DOCUMENT/HTML/FINANCIAL/SPEECH/2013/20131st_speech_715_e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false and is the best selling EV. Tesla is somewhere past 10K Model S units sold.

How many Frankenplug cars have been sold? How many of those Frankenplug players have a serious BEV program again and how many units will they sell in a given amount of time?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Stolen from GM-Volt.com forum:

I went looking, and until now wasn't aware that there is an industry division/debate between DC Fast Chargers (US and European cars) and the CHAdeMO (Japanese/Asian) chargers.

My response:

This division isn't quite as simple as you state. Currently, many CHAdeMO members are also in Europe and have sold a lot of cars. There are over 30,000 electric cars produced by Mitsubishi, Citroen and Peugeot that all use the CHAdeMO port. Nissan LEAF has sold over 70,000 (with over 30,000 in the USA) and the overwhelming majority have the CHAdeMO port. Renault has sold another 30,000 cars, and use their own fast AC charging system (22kW and 43kW) called Chameleon. Those, and Tesla, are the big players in the world of electric vehicles today and for the foreseeable future.

CHAdeMO has about 3000 chargers worldwide, with about 900 in Europe and about 300 in the USA, and are expanding daily. CHAdeMO is the only DC charging standard that is the same everywhere in the world; Tokyo, Chicago and Oslo. Even Tesla abandoned their proprietary plug for the Mennekes Type 2 plug for Europe, and will use an entirely different plug for the USA/Canada. For Japan, Tesla will offer a CHAdeMO adaptor with the car, and that is expected to be available to EU and USA buyers this fall.

Currently, as I write this, there are not one of the proposed DC public and operational chargers anywhere in the world that will quick charge a Spark EV. There also isn't a single car to use those non-existent chargers.

It's a big mountain to be climbed, and the 9 manufacturers (including GM) who are proposing this new standard haven't made any DC charge capable cars yet. I'll spare you my diatribe on what I really think about the new standard, but I would caution against the mindset that CHAdeMO is going to be forgotten for this new standard. My personal belief is the opposite will happen.

 

[fastcharge]

I came across this video on a CHAdeMO charger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KDgIKOE56o

Has anyone found something like that for the SAE Combo? I would like to see it in action. I realize it is not on the streets but there could be a marketing video somewhere.

 

[mwalsh]

I came across this video on a CHAdeMO charger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KDgIKOE56o

Has anyone found something like that for the SAE Combo? I would like to see it in action. I realize it is not on the streets but there could be a marketing video somewhere.

Yeah. Good luck with that. I've only ever seen pictures of two - one had the GM bowtie plastered on the front and was plugged into a Spark. But it was sitting at the Welcome screen, so I doubt it was a functioning unit. And the other was a CHAdeMO charger with photoshoped combo and (possibly) Mennekes cables coming out of the back of it.

Edit: To be fair to Efacec, I've now found a picture of a real faked-up dual CHAdeMO/Combo Plug unit. So clearly they've moved on a bit from faked-up photos.

 

[fastcharge]

Yeah. Good luck with that. I've only ever seen pictures of two - one had the GM bowtie plastered on the front and was plugged into a Spark. But it was sitting at the Welcome screen, so I doubt it was a functioning unit.

Are you referring to this video (buried in the article)?
http://insideevs.com/gm-and-bmw-joi...ting-on-dc-combo-fast-charge-stations-wvideo/

I agree that one does not show much at all.

 

[hyperlexis]

Honestly all this fretting and hand-wringing over a plug! My plug is better than your plug....! Don't switch to X plug or my car will be rendered worthless, boo-hoo.... (Don't worry, it will be worthless because of battery degredation, not a plug....)

When electricity was introduced, original wall outlets looked like light sockets (female) and plugs (male) on lamps and appliances were screwed in like lightbulbs. The U.S. two-pronged, flat blade outlet standard was eventually introduced as the standard. Then, much later, the three pronged grounded outlet standard was introduced. Homes were adapted with time.

Things evolve, things adjust, and improve. This is ground-floor EV tech here. Everyone should be smart enough to know that things will change, and likely rapidly so. We survived the switch to Unleaded gas without catastrophe (remember that...), we can survive a potential change in a plug....

If Nissan thinks it is best to adapt to the SAE plug, who cares! So what! It's a plug! Or, vice versa if they stay with Chademo while everyone else goes with SAE, well OK too.

There will be adaptors developed or L3s will have both style plugs, at least for the near future. I think companies are smart enough to get there are a lot more Chademo EVs out there, for now, than SAEs. Nissan will not leave thousands of Leaf owners stranded without a fix, I'm sure (I hope). They would ruin their whole EV project if they did.

The fear old Leafs' will be left in the dust with a plug as obsolete as a parallel printer port on a computer is simply speculating, making a mountain over a mole hill. Whatever happens, I have some faith that Nissan will not leave current Leaf owners without help. If Tesla can devise adaptors for its plugs, then I assume Nissan has the brains to develop a Chademo to SAE adaptor as well.

I hope.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

My Leaf already has a useless QC port. There is an intention to put a CHAdeMO at a dealer in Boston (just one?), but no specifics yet. If it shows up, and isn't ICEd in or shut off at night, I'll be happy to use it, as its better than L2, but it's not enough.

If SAE gets installed in large numbers here first, I'd have to go with an EV that can use it. That will mean more EVs here, so it'd be one benefit.

 

[Elephanthead]

No, they should not. The plug they have is better since the QCs all connect to that plug not SAE. :lol:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Don't switch to X plug or my car will be rendered worthless, boo-hoo.... (Don't worry, it will be worthless because of battery degredation, not a plug....)...

If Nissan thinks it is best to adapt to the SAE plug, who cares! So what! It's a plug! Or, vice versa if they stay with Chademo while everyone else goes with SAE, well OK too.

First, I don't think anybody but YOU has brought up the issue of a car being "rendered worthless" by a plug. If somebody puts a Frankenplug station somewhere, that doesn't automatically remove any of the 3000 CHAdeMO stations. Dumb premise that you're working from.

Nissan doesn't think it's best to adopt Frankenplug; that is almost singularly the original poster's thoughts. Everybody else isn't going with Frankenplug; it's 8 or 9 auto manufacturers in the USA and Germany. The majority of auto manufacturers are currently with CHAdeMO, including the world's largest manufacturer, Toyota. Overall more than 430 organizations in 26 countries around the world are represented in the CHAdeMO association today.

http://www.plugincars.com/global-ev-charging-standard-interoperability-expected-later-year-127808.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CHAdeMO members are: "Honda/Accura, Toyota/Lexus, Mazda, Nissan/Infinity, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Zero Motorcycles, Hyundai/Kia, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Subaru (plus tons of others less relevant in the US, like Peugeot Citroën, Isuzu, Daihatsu, Micro-vett, Hyosung, BYD, Tata etc -- and that's just vehicle manufacturers)."

"More importantly, around 3k CHAdeMO quick-chargers are already deployed and operating, 80+k compatible vehicles are on the road, and those numbers go up each month. Contrast this with how popular the SAE CCS proposal remains: zero vehicle (two models announced, none of which have quick-charging included standard; the 500e only slow-charges btw), zero public charger, and no commitment from any company to install any in the US. As far as I know, no CCS QC is UL listed yet anyway; only a plug, from melt-my-Rav4 fame Rema, is." [EDIT: that was my car!!!]

"Why would GM & co decide to ignore any existing QC deployment, and design a competing, deliberately incompatible, unproven protocol, which offers no advantage in terms of charging speed, reliability or safety (quite the opposite actually), if for no other reason than attempting to delay and increase costs for Japanese manufacturers (which of course have to support CHAdeMO for domestic vehicles), and generally slow down the introduction of EVs in the US, by sparking the FUD we see here, and effectively delaying QC installations and/or needlessly increasing their cost?"

"This made-up standards war is only strategic, not technically motivated. It is intended solely to harm EVs and stifle competition, obviously doesn't offer any benefit to us end-users. The sooner CCS is recognized as a failure the better."


So, you gave us a lot a belly aching to tell us not to belly ache.

Thanks for the chuckle.