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evnow said:
I think I've said this many times - but technology now exists to fairly accurately predict the range based on the route - nav system knows everything that is needed. We just need these slow moving OEMs to hire a proper tech company to build the needed software. Infact, nothing that can't be achieved in a simple mobile app.

(here is an idea for those Bluetooth OBDII Leaf apps ...)
Hear, hear! There could still be some unforeseen events, such as change of weather, a detour or a change of plans, which could make an emergency energy super-saver mode useful. I agree with your notion that the instrumentation needs to get better, and soon. It's incredible that it's been taking this long given the technology available today. We just need a change of attitude and some rethinking. The last things that's needed is more idiot lights and instruments, which make it difficult to understand the current state of the vehicle and its subsystems.
 
evnow said:
I think I've said this many times - but technology now exists to fairly accurately predict the range based on the route - nav system knows everything that is needed. We just need these slow moving OEMs to hire a proper tech company to build the needed software. Infact, nothing that can't be achieved in a simple mobile app.

(here is an idea for those Bluetooth OBDII Leaf apps ...)

+1.

If I tell the car we need to go to Ohio to see the grand kids, the car will know we need the REx to come on at 80%, and where we will need to refuel, and where we will need to plug in during lunch. Simple calculations for a computer.
 
Good NYT story on the I3 carbon fiber production process, excerpted below RE the main cost/benefits.

IMO this is the most significant innovation of the I-3, and BMW should be given great credit for taking the risk of initiating (hopefully, mass) production with technology that might be a very significant development in making all future BEVs (with or without the "x") much more energy efficient.

Greentech

Carbon Fiber, Light and Strong, Arrives Where It’s Most Needed

...Unless you drive in a neighborhood frequented by millionaires, you may never have seen a car made of carbon-fiber composites, though they have been on the road for more than two decades.

The reason is simple: the models available with carbon-fiber structures are mostly exotic sports machines from makers like Ferrari and Lamborghini that carry price tags well into six figures. The situation will be different next year, when BMW’s electric city car, the i3, goes on sale in the United States — for roughly the price of the company’s 3 Series models, which start at about $33,000.

Carbon fiber’s high strength and low weight make it ideal for applications where the finished product needs to be as light and strong as possible. Jetliners and fighter planes, made in small numbers where the material’s slow and complex production process is not such an impediment, use these composites extensively. Designers of racecars and high-end sports gear turn to carbon for the same properties.

Until recently, however, there was no way that cars with everyday price tags could contain substantial amounts of carbon fiber. Electric vehicles in particular would benefit, as the weight reduction would translate into longer driving distances on each battery charge.

That is how BMW ended up plunging far deeper into the lightweight materials world than executives might have expected a decade ago when the company started making carbon-fiber roof panels for the high performance M3 CSL. Now BMW is not only producing carbon-fiber body structures for the passenger cell of the i3 E.V. — first shown as a design study in 2011 and due to be presented to the media in Germany this week — but it will manufacture the basic material itself. This is something of a throwback to Ford making its own steel in the Model T days.

BMW took the initiative because it saw little progress from carbon-fiber suppliers in bringing the material’s cost low enough for mass-production cars. The automaker says it can supply carbon fiber to the i3’s highly automated assembly line in Leipzig, Germany, at about one-third the market price per pound. The sporty i8 plug-in hybrid will also take advantage of the technology.

...Designing the i3 body with a passenger cell of carbon fiber and a lower “drive module” of aluminum saved about 550 pounds compared with a steel structure, helping to wring the most miles from the battery. BMW says the car will have a range of 80 to 100 miles; a 2-cylinder range-extender engine will be optional.

...Even though the carbon-fiber material is still much more expensive than steel, differences in the overall bodymaking process yield cost savings that help to offset the cost. For starters, the i3 body structure uses just 130 carbon-fiber pieces, compared with about 400 for a steel body. The smaller number is partly explained by the ability of engineers to design very complex parts for the molding process that would not be feasible with the huge stamping presses and dies used to make steel parts. Often a single complex carbon part can replace four or five metal parts that would be welded together.

“We can produce an i3 in about 20 hours, versus about 40 hours for a 3 Series car and using just one-half the space needed for a steel body shop,” said Daniel Schaefer, who oversaw development of the i3 production process...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/automobiles/carbon-fiber-light-and-strong-arrives-where-its-most-needed.html?hpw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
edatoakrun said:
Good NYT story on the I3 carbon fiber production process, excerpted below RE the main cost/benefits.

IMO this is the most significant innovation of the I-3, and BMW should be given great credit for taking the risk of initiating (hopefully, mass) production with technology that might be a very significant development in making all future BEVs (with or without the "x") much more energy efficient.
It was an interesting piece though I thought it was a bit superficial.

I don't see mass as a big issue for EVs. The problem for mass with ICE vehicles is that lugging it up hills and getting it up to speed takes a lot of energy. Not such a big problem for EVs since with regen you can recover a great deal of what otherwise would be dead weight losses. For EVs efficiency issues are more related to aero than anything, even on the City Cycle, and electrical loads are more important than mass.

For most drivers the electric transmission in the Volt will have more impact on efficiency than the carbon fiber in the i3, and it will have this greater impact at a lower price point. We won't even mention the efficiency gains at low cost from the high torque motors in the Spark.

IMO BMW has totally missed the boat by spending so much time and money on carbon fiber at this point in time. It's just pushing on a string with carbon fiber because the technology just isn't at a point where you'll see a payback. Maybe in a few years but not now. (And all sorts of companies are working on carbon fiber for ICE vehicles so it's not as if BMW's efforts are necessary).

It comes down to what the customer thinks is important. If given a choice between better handling (what you get from carbon fiber) or 40 miles of electric range and faster 0-60 times (what you get from more batteries), I think 90% of customers would opt for speed and range.
 
BMW is betting on two things
- carbon fiber is cheaper than battery it can replace
- carbon fiber can be used in their ICE cars

I think #1 is probably not true now and definitely won't be in the future.
 
evnow said:
BMW is betting on two things
- carbon fiber is cheaper than battery it can replace
- carbon fiber can be used in their ICE cars

I think #1 is probably not true now and definitely won't be in the future.
Depends on the slope of the cost curves. More importantly, all the manufacturers are going to have to take several hundred pounds out of all their vehicles to meet 2025 CAFE requirements. Aside from down-sizing, that means using either aluminum or carbon-fiber barring a major decrease in crash-worthiness standards, which won't be possible until reliable autonomous-driving cars become universal.
 
Nissan claims 39% overall regen efficiency so it may be a somewhat bigger deal...

SanDust said:
The problem for mass with ICE vehicles is that lugging it up hills and getting it up to speed takes a lot of energy. Not such a big problem for EVs since with regen you can recover a great deal of what otherwise would be dead weight losses.
 
GRA said:
Depends on the slope of the cost curves. More importantly, all the manufacturers are going to have to take several hundred pounds out of all their vehicles to meet 2025 CAFE requirements.
That 2025 CAFE is for ICE. EVs obviously already meet CAFE.
 
evnow said:
GRA said:
Depends on the slope of the cost curves. More importantly, all the manufacturers are going to have to take several hundred pounds out of all their vehicles to meet 2025 CAFE requirements.
That 2025 CAFE is for ICE. EVs obviously already meet CAFE.
Of course, but the more CF/Al they use, the lower the cost, and BEVs benefit just as much if not more from weight reduction, especially around town. We're at a much earlier stage of CFRP production for ground vehicles than we are with batteries, so I expect the CFRP cost curve to be considerably steeper for some years. The i3 is just the first step towards the CFRP Hypercar, albeit overdue by more than a decade.
 
edatoakrun said:
Good NYT story on the I3 carbon fiber production process, excerpted below RE the main cost/benefits.

IMO this is the most significant innovation of the I-3, and BMW should be given great credit for taking the risk of initiating (hopefully, mass) production with technology that might be a very significant development in making all future BEVs (with or without the "x") much more energy efficient.

Greentech

Carbon Fiber, Light and Strong, Arrives Where It’s Most Needed

...

Until recently, however, there was no way that cars with everyday price tags could contain substantial amounts of carbon fiber. Electric vehicles in particular would benefit, as the weight reduction would translate into longer driving distances on each battery charge.

...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/automobiles/carbon-fiber-light-and-strong-arrives-where-its-most-needed.html?hpw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If carbon fiber was a cost effective way to increase range, Nissan would've used it for the LEAF. but carbon fiber is definitely not a way to have a cheap and safe car. Its a premium product that helps justify a premium price tag.
 
I've seen six different colors on pre-production i3's so far: Ionic sliver, light blue silver, dark gray(looks black), basic gray, white and Solar Metallic Orange(a new color made just for the i3)

I posted pictures of all the different colors here:

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2013/07/bmw-i3-color-choices.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
ydnas7 said:
edatoakrun said:
Good NYT story on the I3 carbon fiber production process, excerpted below RE the main cost/benefits.

IMO this is the most significant innovation of the I-3, and BMW should be given great credit for taking the risk of initiating (hopefully, mass) production with technology that might be a very significant development in making all future BEVs (with or without the "x") much more energy efficient.

Greentech

Carbon Fiber, Light and Strong, Arrives Where It’s Most Needed

...

Until recently, however, there was no way that cars with everyday price tags could contain substantial amounts of carbon fiber. Electric vehicles in particular would benefit, as the weight reduction would translate into longer driving distances on each battery charge.

...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/automobiles/carbon-fiber-light-and-strong-arrives-where-its-most-needed.html?hpw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If carbon fiber was a cost effective way to increase range, Nissan would've used it for the LEAF. but carbon fiber is definitely not a way to have a cheap and safe car. Its a premium product that helps justify a premium price tag.
I doubt Nissan has the production capacity to use CFRP at the moment, and at the time the LEAF was being designed it was still much too expensive. BMW's doing it for the reason they claim, and for the knock-on effects (using it in other cars). CFRP costs have come down considerably in the past couple of years, and BMW has invested in using it. Using it in a BEV happens to be the most critical app at the moment.

Naturally, use of such an expensive material will start at the high end of the market, and then trickle down as experience is gained and costs decrease. Look at all the things included on the LEAF that were only luxury car options just a few years ago (e.g. traction control, the back-up camera), and the ones that will undoubtedly be added in the next few years, such as adaptive cruise control, lane-departure warning, auto-braking, auto parking etc.
 
This Gas2.0 article claims a base price of $34,500 before the tax credit. Surely they got that wrong?

http://gas2.org/2013/07/19/bmw-i3-is-headed-to-the-us-in-january-2014-priced-around-35000/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If this car really sells for $34,500 before incentives, it's a game-changer.
 
I guess in a few more days we'll know for sure. Hopefully they won't add $10k worth of not-really-optional options.

Is this car going to be limited to compliance markets?
 
TonyWilliams said:
Only six "Very Large Manufacturers" must build CARB-ZEV for model years 2012-2014.

GM
Ford
Chrysler / Fiat
Toyota
Nissan
Honda


BMW is not yet one of those.

But as a Intermediate Volume Manufacture, isn't BMW required to build PZEV vehicles (or buy the credits?) Does the ActiveHybrid line covert those credits or do they need the i3 to cover the requirement?
 
jhm614 said:
TonyWilliams said:
Only six "Very Large Manufacturers" must build CARB-ZEV for model years 2012-2014.

GM
Ford
Chrysler / Fiat
Toyota
Nissan
Honda


BMW is not yet one of those.

But as a Intermediate Volume Manufacture, isn't BMW required to build PZEV vehicles (or buy the credits?) Does the ActiveHybrid line covert those credits or do they need the i3 to cover the requirement?

I don't honestly know, since I'm faily narrowly focused on EV's.
 
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