Official BMW i3 thread

[surfingslovak]

Instead of paying about $2,000 for a Frankenplug port with no place to plug in, I'll happily pay more than that to use the Tesla Supercharger network.

Tony, the final option pricing has not been announced, and according to Tom they only had European cars at the unveiling. That said, the dispute over level 3 charging standards is as unfortunate as it unnecessary. As a participant of the field trial program, I should have an opportunity to provide feedback to BMW, which is one of the reasons why I signed up in the first place. I plan on mentioning this, along with the REx spec and behavior, which they did not explain properly, and which is skewing the public perception of this solution. Personally, I was hoping to see a lager battery option. Given the weight and price penalty of the REx, it's clear that they could have offered a longer-range BEV if they wanted to. I would like to understand their reasoning there, and make sure that they have heard how important a decent-range BEV with existing and available QC infrastructure is for the US market.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... make sure that they have heard how important a longer-range BEV with existing and available QC infrastructure is for the US market.

Since this is economic politics they are playing, just make it clear that they can still launch the car in the USA with a Tesla plug that will accept every public charger protocol and keep their GM "friends":

1: Single phase AC with currently available $95 adapter to J1772-2009

2: DC Frankenplug "when those are plentiful" with simple, cheap adapter, maybe $250

3: DC Tesla, free forever (courtesy of modest $2000 donation by me, the EV consumer)

4: DC CHAdeMO, but we know it's from those bad fur-n-ners from Japan (unlike good foreigners in Germany), so this will be an expensive adaptor to punish us ;-)

 

[surfingslovak]

Tony, understood. I can also relate to the reasoning, which leads SanDust and others to doubt the REx. Although it seems to be a cleverly implemented solution, it's far from ideal. I can't speak for Tom, but I know that he reads this thread, and has historically provided great feedback to BMW. Let's hope that they are listening and will take a page or two from Tesla's playbook.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, understood. I can also relate to the reasoning, which leads SanDust and others to doubt the REx. Although it seems to be a cleverly implemented solution, it's far from ideal. I can't speak for Tom, but I know that he reads this thread, and has historically provided great feedback to BMW. Let's hope that they are listening and will take a page or two from Tesla's playbook.

As a motorcycle enthusiast, I will be interested to see how a debated 650cc does!!! I might even consider it for my wife. But, I think I'd prefer the same weight in batteries.

 

[SanDust]

I think the misunderstanding continues, which is unfortunate, and I don't have that much time to get into another academic debate. In the end, most people believe whatever they want to believe. Suffice it to say that Tom spoke to several BMW representatives at the unveiling and they were surprised to hear about these persistent limp-mode rumors. Time will tell, and there should be some real-world road reports in the coming months.

I didn't say it had a limp-mode. I said it had to have EITHER a limp mode OR it had to reserve some of the battery to supplement the extender in high demand situations, thereby cutting the all electric range.

This video from BMW says that it's the latter alternative. It indicates that the REx kicks in when 20% of the usable SOC is left, which means that the all electric range is cut by 20%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXyhsotD1Ww" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Assuming this animation is correct, it is a clever implementation but AFAIK the Volt works exactly the same way in some mode or other where you reserve more battery for challenging drive cycles.

I've seen BMW being quoted as saying that the i3 is different than the Volt because the Volt doesn't recharge the batteries, but I know this claim isn't correct. I have a friend with a Volt who told me just last weekend that he puts the Volt into a mode that recharges the batteries when going up hills and switches out of this mode and into all EV mode on the downhills. This forces the engine to run flat out at a more efficient point, giving him more EV miles than just having the battery run out normally.

 

[surfingslovak]

I think the misunderstanding continues, which is unfortunate, and I don't have that much time to get into another academic debate. In the end, most people believe whatever they want to believe. Suffice it to say that Tom spoke to several BMW representatives at the unveiling and they were surprised to hear about these persistent limp-mode rumors. Time will tell, and there should be some real-world road reports in the coming months.

I didn't say it had a limp-mode. I said it had to have EITHER a limp mode OR it had to reserve some of the battery to supplement the extender in high demand situations, thereby cutting the all electric range.

This video from BMW says that it's the latter alternative. It indicates that the REx kicks in when 20% of the usable SOC is left, which means that the all electric range is cut by 20%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXyhsotD1Ww" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Assuming this animation is correct, it is a clever implementation but AFAIK the Volt works exactly the same way in some mode or other where you reserve more battery for challenging drive cycles.

Yes, exactly. With the caveat that the Volt does not allow the SOC to dip below a certain threshold in charge-sustaining mode, but BMW likely will. The rest of the argument follows from there. Obviously, this trick will only work for a limited period of time. The REx can generate about 50kWh of total energy in about two hours of operation from 2.37 gallons of premium fuel. If we profiled urban driving patterns of two hours duration or less, the vast majority of them will not average more than 25 kW in terms of power output, and the total energy consumption will stay below 50 kWh.

Although you would want to keep the vehicle at or below 25 kW power output most of the time, the battery will be able act as a buffer and help support 50 kW instantaneous demand for about 10 minutes before it becomes critically low. That should be enough to cross a steep hill or two in Seattle or San Francisco. I believe that it would take a climb up a 15% grade at steady 50 mph over more than eight miles before the car gets into hot water.

Fortunately, there aren't many hills like that in large metropolitan areas. Looking at Mt. Hamilton, the climb is quite long, about 22 miles, but the average grade is 4.22%. This could be done in range-extended mode. There was someone on the Tesla forum who voiced a concern about not being able to get from San Diego to Julian. I ran the numbers, and assuming that the above holds true, he shouldn't have any trouble getting there in the i3. That said, he will likely prefer to take his Roadster or the pink Model S he acquired a little while ago.

 

[TomMoloughney]

As George said, I spoke to a few BMW product and program managers about the REx. I also spoke to a charging and infrastructure engineer about the choice to go with CCS. I just wish I got his card because he was a walking encyclopedia on DC quick charge. He rattled off half a dozen reasons why CCS is technically superior to ChAdeMO,(Tony alert!) mostly related to future applications though. He did recognize the dearth of CCS stations in the US will definitely be an issue for a while but said that won't be the case in Europe as there are concrete plans to roll out the infrastructure there. I am going to try to find out who he is and get a recorded interview so I can accurately convey his words and reasons. I took in so much that afternoon I'm not going to try to repeat what he told me because I'm sure I'd misrepresent what he said. I also think since BMW expects the range extender option to be chosen by the vast majority of buyers(up to 80% or so) so the DC quick charge option will probably not. There is really no reason to pay for both. Personally I won't consider getting it as an option unless I had some certainty that there will be CCS stations in my area very coon which I'm sure there won't be. But for that matter there are no CHAdeMO stations here either so I wouldn't buy an EV and pay extra for CHAdeMO living here either. Tesla will have superchargers around my area before any other DC stations are here.

Back to the REx. As noted above, the REx will turn on at a specified SOC. They wouldn't say exactly what that is yet and I get the feeling they are still playing with it to get the exact level of charge they want. The REx will then maintain that level of charge. So if it's 20%, the REx will function to keep the SOC as close to 20% as possible. The people I spoke to said you will be able to continue to drive normally and the car will have slightly less power. In fact, the i3, like the ActiveE reduces power already when the SOC gets lower than about 20% in an effort to extend the range. So in reality, the car in REx mode won't be much less powerful than the BEV i3 in once the SOC drops below 20%. They didn't seem to think the car would have any problems in most all but the most demanding circumstances where you are driving for many miles up a long steep grade. If you are faced with such a situation, you should switch to Eco Pro or Eco Pro+ mode where the car will reduce power to the motor and other electronics. You can also turn the REx off if you don't want it to turn on at the set SOC. Lets say you know you can make your destination without the REX but you'll take the SOC below 20% to do so. You can switch the REx off so it doesn't come on. That setting will not hold though. Once you shut the car off it clears so you can't forget you shut the REx off and suddenly find yourself in trouble. You can also just fill up with gas and continue to drive longer than a single tank will allow you to if you need to.

 

[TonyWilliams]

As George said, I spoke to a few BMW product and program managers about the REx. I also spoke to a charging and infrastructure engineer about the choice to go with CCS. I just wish I got his card because he was a walking encyclopedia on DC quick charge. He rattled off half a dozen reasons why CCS is technically superior to ChAdeMO,(Tony alert!) mostly related to future applications though.

Sony had a lot of reasons why Betamax was better, too. And, it no doubt was. We know how that ended (and it wasn't because they were late to market). Yes, the German automakers are being taken care of quite nicely by their government for the German version of the Frankenplug. I doubt they will be as keen to spend the same kind of money elsewhere in Europe with already 900 CHAdeMO stations (or even if there wasn't any other chargers!). Which also means the majority of Europe will remain "open range" for CHAdeMO, Tesla/Mennekes and Chameleon to expand.

It's just another example of the same thing GM is doing here, except GM doesn't (yet) have the government support or money. Hence, Frankenplug USA, D.O.A. in my book.

He did recognize the dearth of CCS stations in the US will definitely be an issue for a while but said that won't be the case in Europe as there are concrete plans to roll out the infrastructure there.

Recognizes the issue, great. What are they going to do about it here? I personally have little concern for what German car makers are going to do in Germany.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ASK THEM WHAT THEY WILL OFFER FOR DC CHARGING IN JAPAN (crossing fingers)

BMW expects the range extender option to be chosen by the vast majority of buyers(up to 80% or so) so the DC quick charge option will probably not.

Exactly what I thought that they thought! Awesome news for CHAdeMO in the USA, because if there are few BMW's with Frankenplug, and not very many Spark EV's at all, and the assorted other compliance VW and Daimler products with teeny tiny production, I AM PUMPED !!! The DC infrastructure can continue here without being a Betamax/VHS issue.

 

[TomMoloughney]

"Recognizes the issue, great. What are they going to do about it here? I personally have little concern for what German car makers are going to do in Germany.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ASK THEM WHAT THEY WILL OFFER FOR DC CHARGING IN JAPAN (crossing fingers)"

Yes I promise you I will ask when I have the opportunity to speak with someone that would know. But if you don't care what they use in Germany, why do you care why they use in Japan?

I'll wager they don't offer DC quick charge on the i3 in Japan at all, but I will certainly ask. BMW doesn't sell many cars in Japan to begin with. Only about 50K total per year so how many i3's will they sell there anyway? A couple thousand?

 

[evnow]

Saying 'it combines the "best" of both' is purely hogwash.

Not from my perspective.

Comparing Volt & Leaf, we get
- Larger EV range of Leaf
- Range extension of Volt

You get those in a single car. Individually i3 may not be better than either, for the price, in those specific areas. But combined, it just beats both in utility.

 

[SanDust]

Yes I promise you I will ask when I have the opportunity to speak with someone that would know. But if you don't care what they use in Germany, why do you care why they use in Japan?

I'll wager they don't offer DC quick charge on the i3 in Japan at all, but I will certainly ask. BMW doesn't sell many cars in Japan to begin with. Only about 50K total per year so how many i3's will they sell there anyway? A couple thousand?

Bingo. CCS is technically superior for a number of reasons (it will be far less expense for starters), but practical and political reasons make it a slam dunk. No one other than domestic Japanese companies care about Japan. Not only is it a very small market getting smaller all the time, foreign sales in Japan are minuscule. On the other hand, car companies do care about China. The Chinese have made it clear they will not use Chademo, but they have participated in COMBO2 and it appears they'll accept that. I think the EU will make CCS the standard in 2017. With the US automakers signing on to COMBO2 in the US J1772 will be the standard in NA.

There is no possibility of an international AC charging standard, that's already gone, but COMBO2 offers hope for an international DC charging standard. It's ingenious actually. The top half of the plug is local and offers both AC and DC charging up to 40 kW. The bottom half is the international DC standard for superfast charging. Both halves use the same protocols. Easy to support and will lead to much lower cost DC charging on the car and charger side.

Most likely, when everything is sorted and CCS has become the accepted international standard, everyone will want to move to wireless charging. :lol:

 

[SanDust]

Yes, exactly. With the caveat that the Volt does not allow the SOC to dip below a certain threshold in charge-sustaining mode, but BMW likely will.

Regardless of the system, there is a point below which the battery won't go.

I just realized that there shouldn't be any real difference in the electric range with the extender and without. Without an extender you need a buffer. With the extender you can just roll right up to and then beyond the electric range.

 

[scottf200]

Volt aside:

I've seen BMW being quoted as saying that the i3 is different than the Volt because the Volt doesn't recharge the batteries, but I know this claim isn't correct. I have a friend with a Volt who told me just last weekend that he puts the Volt into a mode that recharges the batteries when going up hills and switches out of this mode and into all EV mode on the downhills. This forces the engine to run flat out at a more efficient point, giving him more EV miles than just having the battery run out normally.

If you are below ~40% SOC (ie. 20%) and you put the Volt in Mountain Mode it will charge it back up to ~40% because it thinks you forgot to do it far enough in advance of your mountain (ie. ~15 miles). This "charging" results in dreadful MPGs. If you are at > 40% SOC and put it in Mountain Mode then nothing happens except it subtracts ~15 miles from your EV range and the ICE will start when you get to ~40% so you can climb the mountain without seeing "Propulsion Power is Reduced" mode.

 

[scottf200]

Yes I promise you I will ask when I have the opportunity to speak with someone that would know. But if you don't care what they use in Germany, why do you care why they use in Japan?

Analogy is that Tesla is going to (forced) have a chademo adapter so they can sell in Japan ... so I'm sure Tony is thinking either a BMW adapter (and then brought to USA by someone) or they will use chademo in Japan.

 

[scottf200]

It seems with the DC option so cheap that everyone would put it on their i3 car.

http://insideevs.com/inside-the-operation-of-the-bmw-i3-range-extender-option-pricing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (PDF to UK price list in this article too)

Also of interest in the PDF, are all the pricing for options for the UK (which gives us a good idea on US cost):

Not The Standard Interior
* DC fast charge – £560 ($845 USD)
* 20" wheels – £1,080 ($1,630)
* Full leather/interior upgrade – £2,000 ($3,020)
* Media package/pro navigation – £960 ($1450)
* Park assist/rear camera – £790 ($1,190)
* Winter package (front heated seats) – £260 ($390)
* LED headlights – £710 ($1,070)
* Electric glass sunroof - £780 ($1,180)

 

[Sublime]

It seems with the DC option so cheap that everyone would put it on their i3 car.

If I'm leasing the car, especially if its a 2 year lease, and there are currently 0 compatible deployed fast chargers... I wouldn't pay a nickel for the option.

 

[Bicster]

I'm puzzled why DC charging costs extra at all, on the i3 or the Leaf. Ok, maybe $100-150. But if BMW wants to push their new plug, it should have come standard.

 

[GRA]

Saying 'it combines the "best" of both' is purely hogwash.

Not from my perspective.

Comparing Volt & Leaf, we get
- Larger EV range of Leaf
- Range extension of Volt

You get those in a single car. Individually i3 may not be better than either, for the price, in those specific areas. But combined, it just beats both in utility.

All depends on your usage. For me, since I don't need a car during the week, or for someone whose commute is within the Volt's AER, it's impossible to justify the extra $9k (the Volt is really selling for $36k before subsidies now) for the i3 w/Rex. For my most common out of town trip, 100 miles one way, It would take me something like 27 _years_ doing the trip every 2 weeks to make that back with the i3 if gas averaged $5/gallon, and I just stuck the money I'd saved by buying a Volt in a drawer. So unless you can base your decision solely on environmental reasons, it can't be justified on an economic basis. As for overall utility, the Volt wins hands-down, as it can do un-refueled road trips that would be onerous in the i3.

Now, if you provided the same AE and ICE ranges in a car that didn't command BMW prices, it might be a different story.

 

[SanDust]

If you are below ~40% SOC (ie. 20%) and you put the Volt in Mountain Mode it will charge it back up to ~40% because it thinks you forgot to do it far enough in advance of your mountain (ie. ~15 miles). This "charging" results in dreadful MPGs. If you are at > 40% SOC and put it in Mountain Mode then nothing happens except it subtracts ~15 miles from your EV range and the ICE will start when you get to ~40% so you can climb the mountain without seeing "Propulsion Power is Reduced" mode.

I think this is what he was talking about. The commute isn't a problem but sometimes he does things after work. In this case he's going farther than the Volt will take him on the battery. He has two hills coming home. On the way up the first hill he goes into Mountain Mode. The range left is less than 15 miles so the engine revs to both get him up the hill and to charge the battery up to 40% (using your numbers). At the top of the hill he goes back to EV mode. When he gets to the next hill he repeats the process. After he crests the second hill he has enough battery to get home without the engine coming on.

He said that he uses less gas this way than when he just drives and lets the engine come on after the battery is depleted. He also said that when he does this his display says he got a very large number of EV miles from charge. I'm assuming this is because the gas miles include moving the car, increasing its potential energy, and charging the battery. The EV miles include all the downhill miles where he's recapturing the potential energy. I'm guessing he uses less gas because the engine runs harder at a more efficient point.

 

[evnow]

So unless you can base your decision solely on environmental reasons, it can't be justified on an economic basis.

No one ever bought a BMW for economic reasons

As for overall utility, the Volt wins hands-down, as it can do un-refueled road trips that would be onerous in the i3.

To me driving long distances (like doing to Seattle downtown and back) without using gas is a great "utility".

IOW, in my book - longer EV range = better utility.