Official California PG&E Thread

[edatoakrun]

Hi Wayne,

"I'm in Berkeley and have an underground service lateral rated at 100A in a 2" conduit. I looked into getting a separate meter for E9B, but I got the expected answer from PG&E that any changes to the service would require upgrading the service to all current PG&E requirements..."

Does this apply, even if you replace exiting capacity in your panel-such as an electric stove or water heater, with an evse?

If so, I assume you now plan to use L1 charging only. Unless you have a very long commute, and live in an area that is not likely to have public charging, I don't see the cost/benefit analysis leading to anyone spending many thousands of dollars on L2.


"Also, I wasn't initially clear on how TOU categories and tiers interact. So I called the PG&E New Construction Service Center (which handles service changes) and asked. What I was told is that your net rate within any tier will be the weighted average of the different TOU rates in that tier, weighted according to the proportion of your total usage occurring within each TOU category. This algorithm seems to make it hard to determine the marginal cost of electricity, since if you increase your usage within one TOU category, it affects your rates at all tiers."

This appears to contradict what I was told by a PG&E rep, who said that after each tier was filled in each month, additional kWh's would be billed by TOU rates for the time of day used.

Would someone who knows the correct answer, please clarify?

"Random question: for E9A, has anyone considered the economics of using a (supplemental) electric tank water heater on a timer so that it only heats water during Off-Peak?"

If you are asking about supplementing a natural gas water heater with electric resistance for use at night, I think the answer that the calculator below will give you, is no. If you use an electric heat pump to heat your water at night, probably a good idea, but they are expensive, and may still bump up your E9A tier. Solar-thermal hot water with natural gas backup may work out to be your best option.

Be sure to enter current price from your PG&E bill for gas (lower) and electricity (by TOU) which will be higher or lower than the default price shown below.

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/Fuels/FuelCompare.htm

 

[wwhitney]

Hi Wayne,

"I'm in Berkeley and have an underground service lateral rated at 100A in a 2" conduit. I looked into getting a separate meter for E9B, but I got the expected answer from PG&E that any changes to the service would require upgrading the service to all current PG&E requirements

Does this apply, even if you replace exiting capacity in your panel-such as an electric stove or water heater, with an evse?

This would only apply if you want to change the service to either (a) add a new meter for E9B or (b) upgrade your service size because your service is almost maxed out.

If so, I assume you now plan to use L1 charging only.

No, with a small all-gas house, I should have no problem adding a 15A EVSE to my existing 100A service.

This appears to contradict what I was told by a PG&E rep, who said that after each tier was filled in each month, additional kWh's would be billed by TOU rates for the time of day used.

That algorithm doesn't seem plausible, the electric costs shouldn't depend on the order in which you use electricity within a billing period. So I think we can reject that one.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[planet4ever]

What I was told is that your net rate within any tier will be the weighted average of the different TOU rates in that tier, weighted according to the proportion of your total usage occurring within each TOU category.

I've been on TOU rates (E6) with solar for about four and a half years. For nearly four years of that I maintained a spreadsheet that was able to come within a few cents of what PG&E said I owed. Unfortunately, my computer died last fall, and I discovered that backups don't help much if if you are using a program that is no longer supported. I still have the data, but I haven't found the time to reconstruct my algorithm, so I'm working from memory here. But it's really not too complicated.

First, the tier amounts are fixed by your baseline, with only the top tier you are using being effected by the net electricity delivered. Just think of filling a set of 5 tumblers of various sizes in order until you run out of {insert liquid name}. The sizes are always 1B, 0.3B, 0.7B, 1B, and huge, where B is daily baseline times days. If the net electricity delivered is negative, all of your anti-liquid goes in the first tumbler. So for each billing period (roughly a month) fill in the kWh for each tier.

PG&E tells you the net (positive or negative) usage for peak, partial peak, and off peak. I convert that into three "fractions" of the total net. Note that the fractions may be negative or greater than 1. For each of the 15 cases (3 fractions * 5 tiers) calculate fraction * tier kWh * tariff rate. The total of those 15 values is what you owe them (or they owe you if negative).

This algorithm seems to make it hard to determine the marginal cost of electricity, since if you increase your usage within one TOU category, it affects your rates at all tiers.

That's true of both their algorithm and mine. Stated more obviously, increasing usage in one category reduces the percentage of power used by the other two categories. I'm afraid that's the nature of a zero-sum game (or a 100% sum game in this case). No algorithm is going to get around that. In our case this is good news, since we are talking about increasing the cheapest category and reducing the two more expensive ones. (Or, believe it or not, increasing a more expensive one which is negative.) I usually ignore that effect when doing back-of-the-envelope calculations, and know my result will be conservative, but a proper spreadsheet will factor it in.

Ray

 

[wwhitney]

First, the tier amounts are fixed by your baseline, with only the top tier you are using being effected by the net electricity delivered. Just think of filling a set of 5 tumblers of various sizes in order until you run out of {insert liquid name}. The sizes are always 1B, 0.3B, 0.7B, 1B, and huge, where B is daily baseline times days. If the net electricity delivered is negative, all of your anti-liquid goes in the first tumbler. So for each billing period (roughly a month) fill in the kWh for each tier.

PG&E tells you the net (positive or negative) usage for peak, partial peak, and off peak. I convert that into three "fractions" of the total net. Note that the fractions may be negative or greater than 1. For each of the 15 cases (3 fractions * 5 tiers) calculate fraction * tier kWh * tariff rate. The total of those 15 values is what you owe them (or they owe you if negative).

Right, that is the same algorithm I described. Notice that for a given tier, the tier kWh is the same for all three products: fraction * tier kWh * tariff rate. So the sum of those three products is tier kWh * (sum of fraction * tariff rate for that tier). The value in ()s is the blended rate or weighted average rate for that tier.

Good to know the algorithm is the same when the net usage for a given TOU category is negative.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[edatoakrun]

This appears to contradict what I was told by a PG&E rep, who said that after each tier was filled in each month, additional kWh's would be billed by TOU rates for the time of day used.

"That algorithm doesn't seem plausible, the electric costs shouldn't depend on the order in which you use electricity within a billing period. So I think we can reject that one.

Cheers, Wayne"

Well, it may not seem plausible, or reasonable, but that is exactly what another PG&E phone rep (I asked for a "supervisor") just told me. Note that I only asked about E9A, not E6 rates.

Don't you people who have the E9A rate receive some sort of written explanation of how charges are calculated?

I was also told, as reported elsewhere, that E9 is now optional for PG&E EV owners. So I may not switch till after AC season is over. I expect to save quite a bit year-round with E9A, as I can easily keep below tier 3, but that 30 cent per kWh tier 1-2 peak rate when I crank the AC in the afternoon, will probably mean higher bills from June to August.

Unfortunately, I can't get a TOU meter until I switch, so I wont be able to accurately monitor my TOU usage prior to making the decision whether to switch to E9A (or E9B).

 

[Spies]

Don't you people who have the E9A rate receive some sort of written explanation of how charges are calculated?

Sure do and I get one every month and its called a bill

I have been on the E9A rate since 1998 and the "algorithm" has not changed. I am even willing to share a copy of my bill with you if you think it would help.

Let me see if I can explain the methodology of the E9A billing rate the way I understand it. For any given billing cycle, mine being monthly, the total kWh is noted. Of this a percentage is calculated to determine how much of this total kWh was used in peak, part peak and off peak. Once the percentage is determined the 5 tiers are taken into account to determine the amount to be charged. The total amount used in each tier is now multiplied by the same peak, part peak and off peak percentage. The result of this is then added together to arrive at the amount to be billed.

So for a hypothetical example say someone on E9A in the Summer used 1000 kWh for a 30 day bill. This person used 500 off peak, 300 part peak and 200 peak. This results in 50%, 30% and 20% ratio. This person has a summer baseline of say 16.5 kWh and results in 495 kWh used for tier one, 148.5 for tier two, 346.5 for tier three and 10 kWh for tier four. So now the usage portion of the bill can be calculated.

495 kWh x 50% x $0.05294 = $13.10
495 kWh x 30% x $0.11135 = $16.54
495 kWh x 20% x $0.30470 = $30.17

148.5 kWh x 50% x $0.05294 = $3.93
148.5 kWh x 30% x $0.11135 = $4.96
148.5 kWh x 20% x $0.30470 = $9.05

346.5 kWh x 50% x $0.14802 = $25.65
346.5 kWh x 30% x $0.26613 = $27.66
346.5 kWh x 20% x $0.45928 = $31.83

10 kWh x 50% x $0.18853 = $0.94
10 kWh x 30% x $0.37580 = $1.13
10 kWh x 20% x $0.56915 = $1.14

If I did the long hand math right the usage total should be about $166.10 for this example. This results in an average of about $0.17 per kWh and about 33.3 kWh used each day. Probably would be much easier to show this in a spreadsheet

 

[Spies]

Just for fun I went back and looked at what my example would be for the E1 rate.

495 kWh x $0.12233 = $60.55
148.5 kWh x $0.13907 = $20.65
346.5 kWh x $0.29385 = $101.82
10 kWh x $0.40352 = $4.04

So this looks to be about a total of $187.06 or about $20.96 more than E9A for my example. Keep in mind that currently E9A does require a meter charge of $0.21881 a day or about $6.56 for my example making the total difference closer to $14.40. The meter charge will no longer be required once SmartMeters are available for the E9A rate.

 

[wwhitney]

The meter charge will no longer be required once SmartMeters are available for the E9A rate.

I haven't switched to E9A but when I call the PG&E Construction Services number about switching they said I could keep my SmartMeter when I switch. Is this untrue?

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. Thanks for the illustrated example of the algorithm that planet4ever and I described.

 

[Spies]

I haven't switched to E9A but when I call the PG&E Construction Services number about switching they said I could keep my SmartMeter when I switch. Is this untrue?

PG&E Construction Services told me the same thing but when the service guy came out to install the meter he told me that technically a SmartMeter can support E9A but he currently has no way of actually programming the SmartMeter hardware for the E9A rate. So until the software and hardware is upgraded to allow E9A programing his only option is to install a non SmartMeter so I just kept the TOU meter I already had. He even called PG&E Construction Services to let them know the situation but there seems to be a disconnect about this situation.

Perhaps other areas already have new SmartMeter software and hardware but this does not seem to be the case from my experience.

 

[EricH]

All three California utilities are installing some variant of smart/advanced meters. While the meters will eventually report hourly usage data (daily) to the utility, they can install the meters and read them once a month for regular/normal residential billing fairly easily. So they all started the time-consuming installations without finishing the back-office software. SCE, for instance, has installed over 2 million of the new meters, but is just starting to convert those installed meters to "interval" (hourly) measurement. I am guessing that PG&E is in similar circumstances. So in the short-term, people who want time-of-use rates may actually get meter downgrades (older, non-communicating interval-recording meters) until the end-to-end systems are completed.

I was just told by SCE that I can go on a whole-house "TEV" rate (time-of-use with EV) with their "SmartConnect" meter, which I got last April, without a meter change.

 

[gascant]

The meter discussion seems counter-intuitive to me. I've had a smart meter for almost a year and can read hour by hour usage on any day. Why can't PG&E do this and just apply E9A rates? What am I missing about this? The whole point of E9A rate, in my view, is to charge the LEAF between midnight and 7 AM and get the best rate regardless of what percentage of my consumption it represents....

 

[edatoakrun]

Thanks for the info. Now someone needs to call PG&E and explain it to them....

I doubt that you'd use the summer 20% peak use percentage in the example below, if you lived in the central valley, though.

Don't you people who have the E9A rate receive some sort of written explanation of how charges are calculated?

Sure do and I get one every month and its called a bill

I have been on the E9A rate since 1998 and the "algorithm" has not changed. I am even willing to share a copy of my bill with you if you think it would help.

Let me see if I can explain the methodology of the E9A billing rate the way I understand it. For any given billing cycle, mine being monthly, the total kWh is noted. Of this a percentage is calculated to determine how much of this total kWh was used in peak, part peak and off peak. Once the percentage is determined the 5 tiers are taken into account to determine the amount to be charged. The total amount used in each tier is now multiplied by the same peak, part peak and off peak percentage. The result of this is then added together to arrive at the amount to be billed.

So for a hypothetical example say someone on E9A in the Summer used 1000 kWh for a 30 day bill. This person used 500 off peak, 300 part peak and 200 peak. This results in 50%, 30% and 20% ratio. This person has a summer baseline of say 16.5 kWh and results in 495 kWh used for tier one, 148.5 for tier two, 346.5 for tier three and 10 kWh for tier four. So now the usage portion of the bill can be calculated.

495 kWh x 50% x $0.05294 = $13.10
495 kWh x 30% x $0.11135 = $16.54
495 kWh x 20% x $0.30470 = $30.17

148.5 kWh x 50% x $0.05294 = $3.93
148.5 kWh x 30% x $0.11135 = $4.96
148.5 kWh x 20% x $0.30470 = $9.05

346.5 kWh x 50% x $0.14802 = $25.65
346.5 kWh x 30% x $0.26613 = $27.66
346.5 kWh x 20% x $0.45928 = $31.83

10 kWh x 50% x $0.18853 = $0.94
10 kWh x 30% x $0.37580 = $1.13
10 kWh x 20% x $0.56915 = $1.14

If I did the long hand math right the usage total should be about $166.10 for this example. This results in an average of about $0.17 per kWh and about 33.3 kWh used each day. Probably would be much easier to show this in a spreadsheet

 

[LEAFer]

I haven't followed this thread carefully, because I am not in PG&E territory, so apologies if I missed it, but I just discovered (after receipt of a forwarded Bay Area Air Quality Management District email) this: http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/word_xls/shared/environment/whatyoucando/electricdrivevehicles/PEVRatePlanComparisonCalculator.xls

Let me know if it's useful.

 

[rclams]

I just discovered (after receipt of a forwarded Bay Area Air Quality Management District email) this:

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/word_xls/shared/environment/whatyoucando/electricdrivevehicles/PEVRatePlanComparisonCalculator.xls

Let me know if it's useful.

Wow, I'll say!

It recommends E9B (separate meter for the EV) using my data, although it does not incorporate solar PV calculations (we have a 3 kW system).

I also submitted a query to PG&E about using the BLINK as the E9B meter, since (once certified) the BLINK includes a utility quality meter as well as a tamper-proof seal.

<from the BLINK Datasheet>

Energy Meter
• Internal meter to monitor energy and demand usage • Supports energy usage data evaluation • Supports electric utility EV billing when certified to ANSI 12.20 and IEC standards • Tamper-evident seal placed in highly visible location

That would be ideal as additional electrical work to install a meter socket would not be necessary.

We'll see what PG&E says.

 

[EricH]

The meter discussion seems counter-intuitive to me. I've had a smart meter for almost a year and can read hour by hour usage on any day. Why can't PG&E do this and just apply E9A rates? What am I missing about this? The whole point of E9A rate, in my view, is to charge the LEAF between midnight and 7 AM and get the best rate regardless of what percentage of my consumption it represents....

I think you are confusing the meter capabilities with the back-office system capabilities. SCE began installing SmartConnect meters for residential customers with only the back-office capability to get a single, cumulative read once per month for billing purposes. Only recently did they begin rolling out, or activating, the meter's capability to report hourly usage on a daily basis.

My point is that the PG&E meter may be capable of all sorts of things that aren't activated (or universally activated across their service territory) yet, beyond simple cumulative (kWh) billing.

 

[wwhitney]

Further, PG&E has an EV procedures document on their website (technical bulletin TD-7001B-002, dated January 2011) that states "no dual meter adapters". I'm tempted to call the contact person listed and ask "why?" but haven't.

I went ahead and did this, and the answer I got was that PG&E does not approve dual meter adapters because they are not UL listed. Indeed, I couldn't find any listed dual meter adapters for EVs in the UL database. [The one listed entry is a series dual meter adapter for comparing meter accuracy, not a parallel dual meter adapter for separate metering.]

Cheers, Wayne

 

[greenleaf]

My Leaf was delivered yesterday and I called up PG&E to switch to E9a yesterday. The person I talked to suggested I submit an application for them to review the power requirements.

This morning, I was called back from the services planning department. The rep told me they will upgrade the transformer in my area. She also told me that I should go ahead and call the main line to make sure I get the rate switched.

After being transferred twice, I spoke to a rep who confirmed that my switch to E9a is in process. I requested to have a E9a Smartmeter with net metering but the rep told me these are not available yet.

I then inquired about the "meter fee" for a non-smartmeter. He told me that in my case where the Smartmeter is not available, the additional "meter fee" does not apply. We will see if this is true.

He could not give me an ETA for the E9a rate to go in effect. Can anyone share their any experience how long is the wait?

 

[Long4Leaf]

This went very quick for me in December, less than a week.

 

[Fabio]

I've been waiting for 2 months now. I applied to have both e9a and net metering (because I installed solar panels at the same time) and I am still waiting, giving electrons to PG&E for free in the meantime.

My Leaf was delivered yesterday and I called up PG&E to switch to E9a yesterday. The person I talked to suggested I submit an application for them to review the power requirements.

This morning, I was called back from the services planning department. The rep told me they will upgrade the transformer in my area. She also told me that I should go ahead and call the main line to make sure I get the rate switched.

After being transferred twice, I spoke to a rep who confirmed that my switch to E9a is in process. I requested to have a E9a Smartmeter with net metering but the rep told me these are not available yet.

I then inquired about the "meter fee" for a non-smartmeter. He told me that in my case where the Smartmeter is not available, the additional "meter fee" does not apply. We will see if this is true.

He could not give me an ETA for the E9a rate to go in effect. Can anyone share their any experience how long is the wait?

 

[c1987]

Looks like you are making better progress then me. I submitted the applications 3 times. I called a few weeks after each one was mailed in and the phone rep said they could not find it and to send another. With my LEAF delivery next week, I will start going up the PG&E management chain soon...