Official Southern California Edison thread

[smkettner]

OK, how big of a solar system do I need to basically stay out of the peak TOU EV rate charges.
I don't want to have a net credit or even zero, just clip off the peak charges.

Here is my last bill (Feb), summer will bring more usage during peak time.

On Peak 94 kWh, Off Peak 300 kWh, Super Off Peak 447 kWh.

Of course On Peak is only week days, not holidays.

I don't want to install 4,000w if I only need 2,000w to clip the On Peak charges.

I don't have TOU data from summer but it was about 1,100 to 1,250 kWh total usage last summer including the Leaf.
I do tend to let the house run warm in the day and crank the air after 6p and more after 12a so maybe another 75 to 100 kWh On Peak?

 

[DaveEV]

I don't want to have a net credit or even zero, just clip off the peak charges.

So, you want to go whole-house TOU and just enough to clip off on-peak usage?

Need more info:

1. What hours are on-peak?
2. Does it change in winter/summer months? For example - if winter rates are significantly lower, you wouldn't worry so much about the drop-off in winter production...
3. What direction does your roof face and at approximately what angle. Any shading issues?

 

[smkettner]

On-Peak: 10:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. weekdays all year, except holidays
Super Off-Peak Midnight to 6:00 a.m. all year, everyday
Off-Peak: All other hours - all year, everyday

Times do not change but on peak rate is up to 56 cents a kWh in summer.
Not worried about winter production.

No real shade issues

I doubt the air conditioner will kick on much before noon.

I don't know the pitch but it seems like a standard tile roof.
Largest area faces mostly south, slightly east.

I just have a feeling any solar company will try to sell max. Just looking for a rough perspective on size.

 

[hill]

OK, how big of a solar system do I need to basically stay out of the peak TOU EV rate charges.
I don't want to have a net credit or even zero, just clip off the peak charges.

Here is my last bill (Feb), summer will bring more usage during peak time.

On Peak 94 kWh, Off Peak 300 kWh, Super Off Peak 447 kWh. . . . . . . .

A good PV install company won't look at "Feb". They'll look at your last one or two year's worth of utility bills/use. That's how a system gets properly sized. They'll also go over your objectives ... like staying below tier 2. With out PV, you'd normally have to live like a troll in order to stay no higher than tier 1 ... just a few hundred kW hours - that amount may differ (by a couple hundred kW hours) between San Diego, SCE, Bay area utility companies. But with PV, your system can be sized to stay at the bottom tier.

 

[Boomer23]

OK, how big of a solar system do I need to basically stay out of the peak TOU EV rate charges.
I don't want to have a net credit or even zero, just clip off the peak charges.

Here is my last bill (Feb), summer will bring more usage during peak time.

On Peak 94 kWh, Off Peak 300 kWh, Super Off Peak 447 kWh. . . . . . . .

A good PV install company won't look at "Feb". They'll look at your last one or two year's worth of utility bills/use. That's how a system gets properly sized. They'll also go over your objectives ... like staying below tier 2. With out PV, you'd normally have to live like a troll in order to stay no higher than tier 1 ... just a few hundred kW hours - that amount may differ (by a couple hundred kW hours) between San Diego, SCE, Bay area utility companies. But with PV, your system can be sized to stay at the bottom tier.

I agree. When you decide to get some estimates, interview several companies. Try to have your last 12 months' power usage available for the sales rep to review with you. If you don't have it available, ask SCE to send you a readout of the data by email. Add your EV charging usage to that data if it's not already included. The solar contractor will be able to estimate the output of various sizes of solar arrays for your home's location and roof orientation. You will be able to select an array size that would cover any percentage of your annual usage, your choice.

For my situation in 2006, we evaluated our year's usage in 2005, which was 10,300 kWh. Interviewing three solar contractors, we arrived at an array of 5.16 kW, which was 24 panels of 215 W each on a south facing roof at 20 degrees angle, that would cover a bit more than 80% of our usage. Over the five years that we've had the system, the output has averaged 8,400 kWh. After the system was installed and we started monitoring our usage, we found that we were able to reduce our consumption in various ways so that by 2010, we had an annual consumption of only 6,600 kWh. So now we were generating 27% more power than we were using. Now that we've added the LEAF, we're back to using about 10,200 kWh a year (in an ideal year, unlike this one, when we have extra family living with us). With the TOU-D-TEV rate plan and charging the LEAF after midnight, we'll have an annual SCE bill of zero, even though we're using around 2,000 kWh more than we generate.

By the way, we don't have AC in the house, we cook electrically, heat and water heating are gas, we have an energy hog of a furnace blower, we don't have a pool or a spa, and we don't use much power during Peak hours.

I hope that this info will help you as you interview solar contractors.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

OK, how big of a solar system do I need to basically stay out of the peak TOU EV rate charges.
I don't want to have a net credit or even zero, just clip off the peak charges.

Here is my last bill (Feb), summer will bring more usage during peak time.

On Peak 94 kWh, Off Peak 300 kWh, Super Off Peak 447 kWh. . . . . . . .

A good PV install company won't look at "Feb". They'll look at your last one or two year's worth of utility bills/use. That's how a system gets properly sized. They'll also go over your objectives ... like staying below tier 2. With out PV, you'd normally have to live like a troll in order to stay no higher than tier 1 ... just a few hundred kW hours - that amount may differ (by a couple hundred kW hours) between San Diego, SCE, Bay area utility companies. But with PV, your system can be sized to stay at the bottom tier.

I agree with Boomer23 and Hill that your local installer is your best source for sizing the system to your goals. You will find 3 years of your usage and billing data on the SCE website. Any reputable installer will insist on this data; if they don't, move on. Two suggestions: (1) Go online to the DOE website for "PVWatts" for a rough estimate of production at your home's location. It will serve as a cross-check for vendor calculations. (2) Make sure you have already picked all the low-hanging energy savings fruit such as CFL or LED lighting, setback thermostats, etc.. These options are much less expensive than PV arrays, especially for people like yourself who are attacking the upper cost tiers.

 

[smkettner]

Boomer23, My usage with Leaf looks like 10,500 to 11,500 kWh annually and since your 5kW system basically zeros you out that is bigger than I am looking for. I had been thinking 2kW to 3kW. Thanks for the example it really helps. I like to know something, at least big picture, before I talk to the sales person.

 

[DaveEV]

On-Peak: 10:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. weekdays all year, except holidays
Super Off-Peak Midnight to 6:00 a.m. all year, everyday
Off-Peak: All other hours - all year, everyday

Times do not change but on peak rate is up to 56 cents a kWh in summer.
Not worried about winter production.

No real shade issues

I doubt the air conditioner will kick on much before noon.

I don't know the pitch but it seems like a standard tile roof.
Largest area faces mostly south, slightly east.

I just have a feeling any solar company will try to sell max. Just looking for a rough perspective on size.

Going with the assumption that you need about 200 kWh between 10am-6pm from May 1 through Oct 31st... October will be your worst month, so size the system to make sure you have 200 kWh in October. Keep in mind that weather variability will mean that some years will miss your target and some years you'll go over your target - these estimates are based on average production over the lifetime of the system. If you want to help minimize the times you under produce, up-size the system accordingly.

The slightly facing east will hurt as this will move production towards the morning. In the summer solar noon is around 1pm, but you'll still have a good amount of production before 10am. Where you are in the OC will affect production, too - the coast will get more clouds and reduce annual production. My estimate is using zip code 92602. If you can give your zip code I can adjust, but it shouldn't be more than 10% less from what I can tell.

My rough estimate puts each kW of PV on your roof at approximately 1500 kWh / year with the lowest summer month being October with appx 120 kWh. About 10-15% of this production will be before 10am - let's assume 15% to make sure you hit your targets. A minimal amount will be after 6pm on the longer days of summer, but in October this is negligible with the shorter days.

85% of 120 kWh is 100 kWh during peak hours in October for 1 kW (DC nameplate) of PV. Should make sizing easy then - each kW of PV = 100 kWh of peak hour electricity in October. So you only need 2 kW of PV to make 200 kWh of electricity in October during peak hours on average. Personally, I would probably aim for a 3 kW system or so - better to over produce and offset some of your other electricity usage. Keep in mind that there are some economies of scale, but typically once you get to 5 kW or so the price per watt flattens out.

PVwatts has May-August production as basically flat with appx 120 kWh of on-peak electricity/month. I don't know how excess production is rolled over on a TOU plan for SCE - I assume it will be used to offset your other usage during the same month so it can't be used to offset peak consumption in subsequent months.

Hope this helps! Looks like your ballpark estimate of 2-3 kW is right on.

Make sure you get about 3 quotes from reputable companies. There will likely be some significant variability in the quotes.

 

[Boomer23]

I don't know how excess production is rolled over on a TOU plan for SCE - I assume it will be used to offset your other usage during the same month so it can't be used to offset peak consumption in subsequent months.

Actually, SCE's TOU EV charging rate plans work fine with Net Metering, so you can build kWh and dollar credits during summer months to offset consumption in subsequent months, peak or not. Of course, any surpluses are canceled out, and kWh surpluses are paid off, at each net metering anniversary.

 

[Boomer23]

For those who were contacted to participate in the Nissan/SCE $100 paid driving and charging diary survey during March and April this year, I got the email this morning. It was a bit hard to understand how to respond that I was interested and how to get started. I called Burke, the research company that is running the study, and spoke to a woman who is running the study. She helped me figure out how to get started:

In the email, there is a URL to a survey that is listed in the middle of the email, below the Step #3 instruction. I copied and pasted that URL to my browser and was able to get started on the survey. After answering a few questions to make sure that I am a primary driver of the LEAF and that I don't work for some related company, I was presented with instructions and forms to use to log the information that is needed.

 

[Boomer23]

Reminder for those doing the SCE/NIssan diary study, logging of your driving data starts tomorrow, March 25.

I'll have to remind myself, since it's easy to forget on a Sunday.


Cheers.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

I had to chuckle yesterday when I went online to enter the first 3 days of data. The effort to encode drivers, charging type, etc., onto the paper diary had to be decoded for entry into the survey. Times are entered only in 30-minute blocks, so going into TED to retrieve the exact start and stop times is also unnecessary. Overall, the effort to record and later enter the data is not a big deal.

Side thought: I wonder if SCE actually knows how many Leafs are in their service area (It would seem that DMV should have the best count), and what the starting level of participation in this effort is.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

Just a heads-up for anyone closing out their 2-week log and answering the survey at the end. I encountered multiple times where the survey pages did not fully load and the partial loading was not obvious. After completing a partial page and hitting "Next", I would be presented with the same incomplete page and a comment to the effect that a question had not not been answered. Closing the browser page and starting over resolved the problem each time, and no data was lost in the process. As an example, the last page of the survey was to enter my name and address where the $100 check would be sent. Name, address, city, and state were the only fields, but after pressing "Next" it reloaded with the same four fields and an error message. I did this 4 times before closing & reopened the browser page. The newly loaded page revealed the missing zip code field and things went smoothly from there. I was running Chrome have not experienced similar issues on other sites.

 

[Boomer23]

Just a heads-up for anyone closing out their 2-week log and answering the survey at the end. I encountered multiple times where the survey pages did not fully load and the partial loading was not obvious. After completing a partial page and hitting "Next", I would be presented with the same incomplete page and a comment to the effect that a question had not not been answered. Closing the browser page and starting over resolved the problem each time, and no data was lost in the process. As an example, the last page of the survey was to enter my name and address where the $100 check would be sent. Name, address, city, and state were the only fields, but after pressing "Next" it reloaded with the same four fields and an error message. I did this 4 times before closing & reopened the browser page. The newly loaded page revealed the missing zip code field and things went smoothly from there. I was running Chrome have not experienced similar issues on other sites.

Hmmm... I completed mine with no issues. I'm also running Chrome.

 

[MrFish]

Just a heads-up for anyone closing out their 2-week log and answering the survey at the end. I encountered multiple times where the survey pages did not fully load and the partial loading was not obvious. After completing a partial page and hitting "Next", I would be presented with the same incomplete page and a comment to the effect that a question had not not been answered. Closing the browser page and starting over resolved the problem each time, and no data was lost in the process. As an example, the last page of the survey was to enter my name and address where the $100 check would be sent. Name, address, city, and state were the only fields, but after pressing "Next" it reloaded with the same four fields and an error message. I did this 4 times before closing & reopened the browser page. The newly loaded page revealed the missing zip code field and things went smoothly from there. I was running Chrome have not experienced similar issues on other sites.

Using Firefox, ran into a problem on the last page where I entered my address. Filled in my name and address, clicked next and nothing happened. closed and restarted the survey, fortunately all of my entered data was still there. Got to the last page again, except this time there was a line for zip-code that wasn't there the first time. Filled that in and everything seemed OK with a message that I should expect a check in two weeks.

 

[fooljoe]

So I got solar installed back in March and I finally saw my first net metering statement today, but it's leaving me a bit befuddled. Let me see if I have this right. Here's how it breaks down:

On peak: -267 @ .14 = -37.38
Off peak: -38 @ .13 = -4.94
Super off peak, tier 1: 275 @ .11 = 30.25
Super off peak, tier 2: 83 @ .17 = 14.11
For a total of 2.04

The Super off peak, tier 2 part is what I don't get. I've always tried to charge as much as possible in SOP, but now it seems that once I go into tier 2 it would make more sense to charge off peak or even on peak. How ridiculous is that? Can anyone confirm that I'm doing this right? If my understanding is correct then by shifting that 83 kwh from SOP, tier 2 to either on peak or off peak I would have a negative overall total. Seems bass-ackward but I guess that's how it works.

 

[Boomer23]

So I got solar installed back in March and I finally saw my first net metering statement today, but it's leaving me a bit befuddled. Let me see if I have this right. Here's how it breaks down:

On peak: -267 @ .14 = -37.38
Off peak: -38 @ .13 = -4.94
Super off peak, tier 1: 275 @ .11 = 30.25
Super off peak, tier 2: 83 @ .17 = 14.11
For a total of 2.04

The Super off peak, tier 2 part is what I don't get. I've always tried to charge as much as possible in SOP, but now it seems that once I go into tier 2 it would make more sense to charge off peak or even on peak. How ridiculous is that? Can anyone confirm that I'm doing this right? If my understanding is correct then by shifting that 83 kwh from SOP, tier 2 to either on peak or off peak I would have a negative overall total. Seems bass-ackward but I guess that's how it works.

This seems odd. Are you positive that you don't have any Tier 2 usage On Peak or Off Peak? The way that SCE allocates tiers, it is usually spread across the Peak, Off and Super Off Peak in similar percentages. I looked at my April bill from last year and I had slightly more kWh allocated to Tier 2 than Tier 1 in all three periods, so the allocation of Tier 2 was about an equal percentage across the three time periods.

I'd wait a couple of months before drawing any conclusions that would change your charging behavior. In the summer months, starting in June, you should start seeing Tier 2 credits in Peak times of 55 cents per kWh, which will more than offset your Super Off Peak usage in Tier 2.

Are you likely to have higher usage in summer due to air conditioning or other Peak time usage, so that your picture will change in summer months? That would cut into your solar benefit by reducing the Peak generation numbers.

If you continue to see Tier 2 only allocated to SOP, you could try doing some charging Off Peak, but I certainly wouldn't recommend charging On Peak because you'll be giving away your On Peak credits. Again, you should be able to see what the credits look like after you receive your June bill (if we ever get any significant sun, that is )

 

[fooljoe]

This seems odd. Are you positive that you don't have any Tier 2 usage On Peak or Off Peak? The way that SCE allocates tiers, it is usually spread across the Peak, Off and Super Off Peak in similar percentages. I looked at my April bill from last year and I had slightly more kWh allocated to Tier 2 than Tier 1 in all three periods, so the allocation of Tier 2 was about an equal percentage across the three time periods.

How would I have any tier 2 usage on peak and off peak when those are both negative?

Anyway, this was just the first statement, and it was adjusting what was previously billed as a "regular" cycle, so maybe once I get an *official* net metered statement it'll make more sense. Why it takes 2+ months for someone at SCE to basically push a button I don't quite understand...

In the meantime I see that I just went into tier 2 for this cycle, and there are still 10 days left. I guess I'm going to try to shift my charging from SOP to off peak as much as possible and see what happens.

Here's the breakdown from SCE's website. I had to deduce how much of SOP went into tier 1 vs tier 2 to get the total they show, but it seems pretty clear that none of the on peak or off peak production was credited at tier 2 rates.

I guess I'll just bite the bullet and call them up.

 

[Boomer23]

This seems odd. Are you positive that you don't have any Tier 2 usage On Peak or Off Peak? The way that SCE allocates tiers, it is usually spread across the Peak, Off and Super Off Peak in similar percentages. I looked at my April bill from last year and I had slightly more kWh allocated to Tier 2 than Tier 1 in all three periods, so the allocation of Tier 2 was about an equal percentage across the three time periods.

How would I have any tier 2 usage on peak and off peak when those are both negative?


I guess I'll just bite the bullet and call them up.

I meant usage in general terms, i.e. positive or negative usage. I think that what you are seeing is an effect of the transition and not a routine thing, unless it is a billing software glitch, see last paragraph below.

BTW, are you on a single meter or a dual meter TOU plan? I'm assuming single meter by the rates you are showing.

I haven't seen that type of display on my SCE page, probably that is because I don't yet have a smart meter. But I thought that SCE hasn't yet figured out how to handle solar net metering along with TOU billing on a smart meter, hence everyone with solar and TOU is on a manually read meter. If you have a smart meter and they are using it for TOU billing, maybe the strange billing behavior is caused by a problem with SCE's programming for billing TOU and solar PV on a smart meter. If so, you definitely should call their attention to it.

Unless they have a new approval from the CPUC, which I think we would know about, they need to be spreading the billing tiers across all three time ranges so that you get credits at Tier 2 for some of your solar production if you are seeing billings for any of your usage at Tier 2.

 

[Aeolus]

Hmm,

I'm still attempting to get SCE to give me some bill for my usage since March 6th, when my a new meter was installed for net metering, after a significant delay, since SCE "lost" the original files from my solar installer as part of a "software transition".

I received one bill for the balance of the period through the meter change-out but nothing since then. I should have monthly bills for the period March 6th to April 5th, April 5th to May 5th, with my third month's billing period coming up.

My on-line account shows that no billing information available for my account.

Phone calls have not helped.

Is it really true that SCE, after investing 1.2 BILLION DOLLARS in Smart Meters, can't actually do the functions that Smart Meters were intended to address, like doing time of use AND net metering?

Maybe it's time to file a complaint with the PUC.