Official Toyota Prius PHEV thread

[JPVLeaf]

Saw my first Plug-in Prius today. It was cruising at about 65-68 mph behind me in the HOV/carpool lane for about 5 miles. I didn't realize it was a PiP until I pulled out of the HOV lane and noticed it was a Prius without a 'carpooler', adult nor child seat. It had a set of the new CA green clean air stickers. Seeing those, too, was a first for me. If that driver's commute was much more than the miles that I saw him/her driving at those freeway speeds, it's a pretty fair bet that that the PiP was purchased for the single driver-HOV access. I have to say, if my RT commute was much more than my Leaf's range, I can't say I wouldn't be giving that car serious consideration ... not for it's EV props, but for the solo-HOV access (never mind the fact that it's a Toyota). It's not for the purist EV-er, but for rush-hour commuting purposes around here, CA solo-HOV stickers are golden.

 

[astrorob]

Saw my first Plug-in Prius today. It was cruising at about 65-68 mph behind me in the HOV/carpool lane for about 5 miles. I didn't realize it was a PiP until I pulled out of the HOV lane and noticed it was a Prius without a 'carpooler', adult nor child seat. It had a set of the new CA green clean air stickers. Seeing those, too, was a first for me. If that driver's commute was much more than the miles that I saw him/her driving at those freeway speeds, it's a pretty fair bet that that the PiP was purchased for the single driver-HOV access. I have to say, if my RT commute was much more than my Leaf's range, I can't say I wouldn't be giving that car serious consideration ... not for it's EV props, but for the solo-HOV access (never mind the fact that it's a Toyota). It's not for the purist EV-er, but for rush-hour commuting purposes around here, CA solo-HOV stickers are golden.

this is just my opinion, but i'll bet the white stickers will be renewed once again, and the green stickers will not. so i think the leaf is more valuable as a long-term HOV car.

 

[JPVLeaf]

this is just my opinion, but i'll bet the white stickers will be renewed once again, and the green stickers will not. so i think the leaf is more valuable as a long-term HOV car.

Yes, I do agree with that. I'm not a big fan of the PiP due to the teeny EV range, but I could see why it would be attractive to a specific type of commuter. Outside of solo-HOV access via the green stickers, though, I couldn't personally justify the additional cost ... over just purchasing a regular Prius. After I realized it was a greeny-PiP, I had the same thought of consolation that at least the privilege would be limited, as for the yellow stickered-hybrids. And, the stickers would at least be effective in incentivizing adoption of a new technology. I just don't like the idea of incentivizing the purchase of PHEVs with the privilege of driving solo in the HOV when that is when they are are actually less likely to be operating in EV mode. I suppose this is more so with the PiP and its ~12-mi. EV range than the Volt with ~35 EV miles. At least, the PiP gets much better gas mpg than the Volt.

 

[CarZin]

So funny. At 65 MPH it is no longer an electric and it is burning gas. The Prius is hands down the weakest sauce for EVs out there.

At least, the PiP gets much better gas mpg than the Volt.

Who cares? I have burned 10 gallons in 5,500 miles, and only 3.7 in the last 5000.

 

[astrorob]

So funny. At 65 MPH it is no longer an electric and it is burning gas. The Prius is hands down the weakest sauce for EVs out there.

At least, the PiP gets much better gas mpg than the Volt.

Who cares? I have burned 10 gallons in 5,500 miles, and only 3.7 in the last 5000.

right, i think it goes up to 62MPH on electric only.

JPVLeaf's point was that if people buy the PIP for carpool lane access, then their commutes are probably long and definitely exceed the EV range of the car. probably also true of the volt as well. though with 40mi range or whatever you stand a chance of making your whole commute on electric. but if not, in both cars you end up burning fuel and then the prius gets better MPG. that's all. N=1 does not mean much here, he's talking about the cumulative effect of 1000s of cars running on gasoline in the carpool lane.

for instance, my commute is 92 miles round trip. however... N=1 again.

 

[JPVLeaf]

So funny. At 65 MPH it is no longer an electric and it is burning gas. The Prius is hands down the weakest sauce for EVs out there.

At least, the PiP gets much better gas mpg than the Volt.

Who cares? I have burned 10 gallons in 5,500 miles, and only 3.7 in the last 5000.

right, i think it goes up to 62MPH on electric only.

JPVLeaf's point was that if people buy the PIP for carpool lane access, then their commutes are probably long and definitely exceed the EV range of the car. probably also true of the volt as well. though with 40mi range or whatever you stand a chance of making your whole commute on electric. but if not, in both cars you end up burning fuel and then the prius gets better MPG. that's all. N=1 does not mean much here, he's talking about the cumulative effect of 1000s of cars running on gasoline in the carpool lane.

for instance, my commute is 92 miles round trip. however... N=1 again.

Thanks, astrorob. Exactly my point. Thanks for the elaboration.

+1 on the 62 mph. So even on the stretch where the PiP was behind me in the HOV lane (going 65-68 mph), it was already burning gas.

 

[hill]

So funny. At 65 MPH it is no longer an electric and it is burning gas. The Prius is hands down the weakest sauce for EVs out there.

At least, the PiP gets much better gas mpg than the Volt.

Who cares? I have burned 10 gallons in 5,500 miles, and only 3.7 in the last 5000.

The PHEV status is NOT why PiP's get green stickers alone . . . it's how CLEAN they run. That's why you're still waiting to see Volts with green stickers ... they have to unload the dirty ones before they'll start selling the cleaner burning ones.

 

[CarZin]

Thanks for the above replies!

^ Well, its more to it than that, isnt it? Didnt all the Prius's get their HOV lane yanked? And now you have to have a plug in? I guess if it has an engine, that has to be certified as well.

 

[DaveEV]

The PHEV status is NOT why PiP's get green stickers alone . . . it's how CLEAN they run. That's why you're still waiting to see Volts with green stickers ... they have to unload the dirty ones before they'll start selling the cleaner burning ones.

The PiP when running in HV mode is the same as the regular Prius. It takes a combination of plug-in EV capability along with low gasoline emissions to qualify for the green carpool sticker.

 

[astrorob]

Thanks for the above replies!

^ Well, its more to it than that, isnt it? Didnt all the Prius's get their HOV lane yanked? And now you have to have a plug in? I guess if it has an engine, that has to be certified as well.

it wasn't so much that it was yanked, but that the program had run it's course and people were buying priuses without the incentive.

california has a bunch of zero-emission vehicle targets and plug-in hybrids are seen as a step along the way. hence the smaller CARB rebates and (likely) shorter HOV sticker lifetime VS. pure electric (or fuel cell) vehicles.

 

[cwerdna]

Thanks for the above replies!

^ Well, its more to it than that, isnt it? Didnt all the Prius's get their HOV lane yanked? And now you have to have a plug in? I guess if it has an engine, that has to be certified as well.

it wasn't so much that it was yanked, but that the program had run it's course and people were buying priuses without the incentive.

california has a bunch of zero-emission vehicle targets and plug-in hybrids are seen as a step along the way. hence the smaller CARB rebates and (likely) shorter HOV sticker lifetime VS. pure electric (or fuel cell) vehicles.

Correct. All CA yellow HOV stickers for qualifying hybrids expired in 2011. They weren't yanked.

So funny. At 65 MPH it is no longer an electric and it is burning gas. The Prius is hands down the weakest sauce for EVs out there.

At least, the PiP gets much better gas mpg than the Volt.

Who cares? I have burned 10 gallons in 5,500 miles, and only 3.7 in the last 5000.

It matters for some who take it on longer trips, well beyond the Volt's EV range. For instance, if I had to drive to SF (used to do it a lot), it's at least 120 miles, round trip. I'd rather have the higher mileage of my Prius or the PiP once the battery's depleted on regular gas (vs. the required premium on the Volt).

Volt only seats 4, is classified as a compact (vs. the midsized Prius) and costs more than a PiP and way more than a Prius.

 

[cwerdna]

The PHEV status is NOT why PiP's get green stickers alone . . . it's how CLEAN they run.

Yep. There are a few details at http://green.autoblog.com/2011/11/16/new-enhat-pzev-chevy-volt-ready-for-california-hov-access-extra/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. There were some more details posted by a Volt owner in another thread.

The dirtier Volts never qualified for the green CA HOV stickers.

 

[Ingineer]

Is anyone looking for a fully loaded PiP?

Shoot me an email.

-Phil

 

[DrInnovation]

SNIP

Correct. All CA yellow HOV stickers for qualifying hybrids expired in 2011. They weren't yanked.

So funny. At 65 MPH it is no longer an electric and it is burning gas. The Prius is hands down the weakest sauce for EVs out there.

At least, the PiP gets much better gas mpg than the Volt.

Who cares? I have burned 10 gallons in 5,500 miles, and only 3.7 in the last 5000.

It matters for some who take it on longer trips, well beyond the Volt's EV range. For instance, if I had to drive to SF (used to do it a lot), it's at least 120 miles, round trip. I'd rather have the higher mileage of my Prius or the PiP once the battery's depleted on regular gas (vs. the required premium on the Volt).

Volt only seats 4, is classified as a compact (vs. the midsized Prius) and costs more than a PiP and way more than a Prius.

Well hate to break it to you but even at 120 the volt will use (with EPA #) less gas than a Prius or PiP.. assuming that is mostly highway.
120/50 = 2.4 gal for prius
(120-11EV)/50 = 2.18 for Prius PlugIn.
(120 - 35 EV)/40mpg highway = 2.125gal.
And before you say some Prius drivers get better than EPA, remember so do some volt drivers.


If its too small (4 seats) that's a different issue.
So yeah if you have to drive 5 people every day 120miles RT, go for the Prius or PiP.
If not, you'll need another excuse to say you hate the Volt.

Over about 5million miles users at voltstats.net have averaged 120mpg. Maybe not as good as as leaf users, but way better than Prius or Prius PHV users seem to be getting.

 

[TomT]

I neither hate the Volt nor love the PIP. However, historically the PIP (Toyota) is likely to be more reliable and durable than the Volt (GM)...

If not, you'll need another excuse to say you hate the Volt.

 

[DrInnovation]

For those interested in seeing the PiP's efficency in the real world there is a nice spreadsheet at
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AptkktKEhdz9dGF0WWdUZEpqWWdJOGhDWlFsWDBUdGc#gid=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As of now with about 14935 fully logged miles (21,355 total bu some people did not report all data).
The Pips are showing about 31% EV usage, 71.9 "raw" MPG (ignoring kWh),
23.29 kWh/100m or 4.29 Miles/kWh (when in EV mode), 49.6 MPG in HV mode and
61MPGe overall.

 

[Stoaty]

For those interested in seeing the PiP's efficency in the real world there is a nice spreadsheet at
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AptkktKEhdz9dGF0WWdUZEpqWWdJOGhDWlFsWDBUdGc#gid=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As of now with about 14935 fully logged miles (21,355 total bu some people did not report all data).
The Pips are showing about 31% EV usage, 71.9 "raw" MPG (ignoring kWh),
23.29 kWh/100m or 4.29 Miles/kWh (when in EV mode), 49.6 MPG in HV mode and
61MPGe overall.

Very interesting data, thanks for the link. I pay 15 cents per kWh (Green Electricity from LA DWP) and gas in L.A. is running about $4.30 right now so the cost per mile would be a bit higher here. I am getting 3.2 cents per mile in my Leaf over 8,000 miles (but I do drive extremely conservatively):

15 cent per kWh / (5.7 miles per kWh * .83 assumed efficiency of L2 charging) = 3.2 cents per mile

My brother gets about 8 cents per mile (50 MPG, assume $4.00 per gallon) in his regular Prius. What is the average cost per mile from all this data for the PIP?

 

[DrInnovation]

For those interested in seeing the PiP's efficency in the real world there is a nice spreadsheet at
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AptkktKEhdz9dGF0WWdUZEpqWWdJOGhDWlFsWDBUdGc#gid=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As of now with about 14935 fully logged miles (21,355 total bu some people did not report all data).
The Pips are showing about 31% EV usage, 71.9 "raw" MPG (ignoring kWh),
23.29 kWh/100m or 4.29 Miles/kWh (when in EV mode), 49.6 MPG in HV mode and
61MPGe overall.

Very interesting data, thanks for the link. I pay 15 cents per kWh (Green Electricity from LA DWP) and gas in L.A. is running about $4.30 right now so the cost per mile would be a bit higher here. I am getting 3.2 cents per mile in my Leaf over 8,000 miles (but I do drive extremely conservatively):

15 cent per kWh / (5.7 miles per kWh * .83 assumed efficiency of L2 charging) = 3.2 cents per mile

My brother gets about 8 cents per mile (50 MPG, assume $4.00 per gallon) in his regular Prius. What is the average cost per mile from all this data for the PIP?

note its not mine, it was started by ukr2 on prisuchat (http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-prius-plug-in/106610-pip-mpg-spreadsheet.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
I'm just helping with some formulas to keep it correct) and though others might find it interesting.
Updated the sheet to compute fleet costs (but note that its weak since it assumes a particular price for gas and for eletricity which can vary highly)

Estimated Fuel costs are $.0500/mile (so much more than your leaf or my Volt, then again they are only at 31% EV which is limiting.

For my last 4000 miles (as long as I've been tracking electricity costs since it took a while to get a TODU meeter), I'm at 0.0250/Mile My costs are cheaper since I only average just over $.06 for my night-time charging (including the wind-power premium).

 

[Stoaty]

Estimated Fuel costs are $.0500/mile (so much more than your leaf or my Volt, then again they are only at 31% EV which is limiting).

Might not be worth it on a strict cost basis to get the PIP (MSRP $8,000 more for PIP), but anything that decreases use of fossil fuels is a good thing. Assuming about 5 cents per mile less to drive the PIP on electricity compared to gas, you would have to put in 160,000 ELECTRIC miles to recoup the extra $8,000. If electric miles are about 30% of your total, that means you wouldn't break even financially until you drove your PIP about 530,000 miles!!!

On the other hand, the economics for my 2011 Leaf worked out very well compared to regular Prius: Base price was $22,500 after rebates, assuming the $1500 less than price of Prius (MSRP $24,000) went to install L2 charging station the base price is about the same. However, the Leaf cost 3.2 cents per mile compared to 8 cents per mile for Prius (more if price of gas increases). So, assuming maintenance costs are the same you would save about $4800 over in fuel costs over 100,000 miles for the Leaf compared to the Prius. If the Leaf battery is getting ragged around the edges at that time, hopefully that money would be enough to buy you a new battery.

 

[hill]

Estimated Fuel costs are $.0500/mile (so much more than your leaf or my Volt, then again they are only at 31% EV which is limiting).

Might not be worth it on a strict cost basis to get the PIP (MSRP $8,000 more for PIP), but anything that decreases use of fossil fuels is a good thing. Assuming about 5 cents per mile less to drive the PIP on electricity compared to gas, you would have to put in 160,000 ELECTRIC miles to recoup the extra $8,000. If electric miles are about 30% of your total, that means you wouldn't break even financially until you drove your PIP about 530,000 miles!!! . . . . . . . snip

Or to REALLY accentuate the ROI logic - you can compare the Volt's cost to the Hybrid Malibu (presuming both are averaging 12K miles/yr). Payback would be around a million miles
:lol: